It’s a dumpster fire. And I am too stupid to stop reading it.This thread is god awful
Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V
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SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
The part (well, one of the parts) that annoys me about this is that in a couple years when Quinn is gone and these kids are dunking on everyone, like Fox is right now, people are going to use that as evidence of Quinn “holding them back”.
There’s no scenario where this fan base gives him credit for anything.
Instead of rightfully regretting choosing temper tantrums over enjoying the present for what it is—growing pains—everyone will have a free pass.
There’s no scenario where this fan base gives him credit for anything.
Instead of rightfully regretting choosing temper tantrums over enjoying the present for what it is—growing pains—everyone will have a free pass.
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smoneil
Registered User
The part (well, one of the parts) that annoys me about this is that in a couple years when Quinn is gone and these kids are dunking on everyone, like Fox is right now, people are going to use that as evidence of Quinn “holding them back”.
There’s no scenario where this fan base gives him credit for anything.
Instead of rightfully regretting choosing temper tantrums over enjoying the present for what it is—growing pains—everyone will have a free pass.
He's a weird coach to figure out, to be honest. His hiring kind of came out of nowhere. He had a very brief pro career (because of his medical condition). His coaching career before here was also a bit odd. He had the AHL gig and the Boston gig for a combined 8 years. Always managed decent seasons, but never really won anything (came close with Boston in 14/15 with Eichel leading the way, but they still lost in the final. Only made the AHL playoffs one of his three years, and they lost in the first round. He was an assistant with Colorado for like 6 months in a season where they didn't make the playoffs. Really, outside of that one year with Eichel, there's nothing that really pops on his resume.
In terms of what he's done here, that's another series of head scratchers, because almost every accomplishment is packaged with a failing. For example, he gets credit for getting ADA to do what he did last year. But...does he then get the blame for being unable to control ADA this year? The team defense was a mess last year and is much improved this year. You can't pin the failure on Ruff and the improvement on Quinn. And likewise, you can't pin the failure on Quinn and the improvement on Martin. So which is it? Did he have one good year and one bad one? Do we pin the failure on Ruff and the improvement on Martin, leaving Quinn out of it?
If he were getting the kids a few more minutes per game, I probably wouldn't have an issue with him. I still wouldn't be able to figure him out, and there would still be some odd decisions that he made that would make me wonder about his judgement, but all of those things are relatively minor. I will say that he tends to give defensemen more of an opportunity to learn on the job. He seems to be much more comfortable with defensemen than he is with forwards, and it shows. Might be because of his own background as a defensemen (hell, psychologically it might be connected to his own history as a defenseman who lost his opportunity due to an unfair roll of the genetic dice).
But really, the minutes issue is the only thing, positive OR negative, that really stirs any serious emotion from me. He's had a very vanilla career outside of that one year with Eichel in Boston.
I do think this will be agreed on league wide. If KK and Laf flourish no one is going to think it's because of the miserable seasons they have had with Quinn.The part (well, one of the parts) that annoys me about this is that in a couple years when Quinn is gone and these kids are dunking on everyone, like Fox is right now, people are going to use that as evidence of Quinn “holding them back”.
There’s no scenario where this fan base gives him credit for anything.
Instead of rightfully regretting choosing temper tantrums over enjoying the present for what it is—growing pains—everyone will have a free pass.
Hold your tip we still have a long way to go. It wasn't too long ago our lack of elite forwards was the major reason we couldn't get Lundqvist his cup. Zib, Strome, and Buch are not going to take significant discounts and then we're going to have to rely on an organization that is historically bad at developing elite forwards to develop one.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Why wait? Fox is flourishing right now. I know, he’s just good. So, Lafreniere/Kakko/Chytil: all there have actually been scoring quite a few points the last three weeks. That’s...good? Is the TOI column more important than the points column?
They seem like they’re having fun. Miserable for HFBoards?
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aufheben
#Norris4Fox
I know K’Andre Miller doesn’t count because he’s a defenseman and old enough to buy beer, nonetheless 21:00 ATOI 20P/82.
- Jan 18, 2012
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Its pretty evident that you okay for today...with some vision to future. Sports is a now game often
eco's bones
Registered User
this is kind of the discussion I hear from many people here. They want bigger, flashier numbers from the young guns no matter what and for the vets who have a proven track record of producing flashier numbers they want them to assume secondary roles or be kicked to the curb altogether. But basically then there is no team leadership and if the young guns struggle and/or if they play without defensive discipline that’s not an issue and if the team’s record in the standings sucks that can always be blamed on the coaching staff.
Anyway I think I’m kind of describing the experiment that the Oilers were on several years ago. It didn’t work then and I don’t think it will work now.
As a critique of the two higher drafted both Kakko and Lafreniere have been working on and working out skating issues boring as that may be. For Kakko IMO he’s a little top heavy and he has awkward falls—not nearly as many this year as last year though. He’s also had to relearn how to attack the net harder which has improved this year. He does not completely have his man’s strength yet either and can be outmuscled and his leaning on players is going to be more effective as he gets a little older and stronger.
For Lafreniere it’s more processing the speed of the game particularly when the other team has the puck. His hockey IQ is fine but his skating speed is just above average and he can get caught flat footed or appear slow when his positioning is off. As the season has gone along that area has improved. He’s not got anywhere near the nasty looking +/- that Kakko sported last year.
All this is to say that neither of the two were finished products when they joined the Rangers and that they lacked or lagged on some of the dynamics that made the McDavid’s, MacKinnon’s or Matthews instant stars. That doesn’t mean though that they can’t get there. It took Joe Thornton at least three years to become a real force in the league. It also should be kept in mind that most very high draft picks do not have the luxury of joining teams with the likes of quality players like Panarin and Zibanejad.
Lastly I’m going to say this I get all the ‘your players are busts’ shit you’re going to get from supporters from other fan bases. Maybe they’re from within your own households or amongst your best friends or enemies. I get it but I just don’t give a f***. Two of my closest friends are Bruins fans but I’m impervious to this kind of bullshit and if that’s a problem thicken your skin.
It is because a) once they got away from Quinn they could do what they want and develop by themselves? Or did they wake up and decide that now is the time to play well?
Gamma82
Registered User
So who are all these players completely outperforming Laf from his draft year that shows that his development is being ruined? 2019 draft is not that different Kakko 3rd out of just 16 players in the NHL. Maybe it's the expectation game that has gotten some thinking that we are totally ruining these prospects.
People point to Stuetzle as out performing Lafreniere, but while I detest the stat, the -20 tells you something. The kid is being developed the way that most on here want Lafreniere, Kakko & Kravstov to be developed by letting him do whatever he wants. He has no idea that his own end exists. To me, the kid is on his way to becoming Laine 2.0. Someone who has great counting stats, but is a player who finds himself on several teams as a team full of Laines wins absolutely nothing.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
I think its a combination of 3 things:
1) Over-inflated expectations of the fan base. The summer of 2019 it was "Will Kakko score 30 goals"? This year it's "Lafreniere over or under 65 points"
2) A genuine, and unfounded, fear that neither will pan out. And some seemingly will bend over backwards to prepare themselves for being disappointed—even going so far as to claiming this franchise can't develop forwards.
3) A petulant lack of patience. Maybe hockey really is different here—you can't rebuild.
Of course that is much easier than actually looking at the absolute oddity of the past 13 months. Or looking beyond a stat sheet to evaluate how either guy is playing.
It's also easier to deal in absolutes: Quinn sucks or Quinn is amazing. Of course neither of the two are true.
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- Aug 5, 2010
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If it were a normal season Lafreniere would have played in Traverse city tournament and in 5 preseason games (subtract from 45). At 40 games he'd be right in the middle of the season and continuing to play better and better (which he's been doing so far) toward the end of the season and also very likely would've gotten a taste of playoffs. Unfortunately we don't live in this reality where we'd be able to see 40 more games from Lafreniere in his D+1 season.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Of course. Also, these kids went from a routine of getting ready for a season in August and games starting in September. That wasn't the case.
- Aug 5, 2010
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Prep in itself would be different which we really can't handicap this impact - just hypothesize that Lafreniere acclimation would've been easier and faster.
Also when compare stats to previous high draft picks. For example taking their first 40-some games to do apples to apples comparison to Lafreniere, and also see how they improved from the first half to the second half of their first NHL season.
smoneil
Registered User
That's never been what I've been calling for, however. Wanting to see your top 4 forward prospects get better minutes than the 4th liners is not a demand that they supplant the top line. There are lines in between. I feel I've been pretty clear that what I'm looking for is another minute or two of EV time and a regular shift on a 2nd PP that actually gets used. I'm looking for a few additional sheltered minutes, in short, so that these kids can actually play the game. Knobloch did this well in the Philly blowouts. He still leaned on the vets, but as it became clear that the game was over, the kids were out there every other shift. I know that the four aren't ready to carry a team (though I think Chytil and Kakko are a bit closer), but the more minutes we can get them, the quicker they'll get there. Hell, I'd have Chytil and Kakko out there as a PK unit. Get them the experience in a season that--per the team's management--is supposed to be all about their development.
Again though, nobody is calling for the kids to supplant Panarin and Zib. We're calling for them to play more when the situation calls for it. We're calling for them to play more than Rooney, Howden, and Blackwell (and over the last ~15 games, the kids' TOI has gone down drastically). When a kid is drafted by a true bottom-feeder, they often get thrust into a first line role. Our kids got drafted into a mid-level team with some good pieces in the top 6. They should still be getting at least 3rd line minutes and some play on the PP.
I grew up gay in farm country in the 90s AND I spent four years teaching 9th grade before going to grad school. Trust me. Obese rhinoceri are jealous of the thickness of my skin, haha. I think it has more to do with my various sports fandoms (Metrostars/Red Bull, Knicks, Rangers, and...the Jets). When something good happens in my sports world, it feels like a matter of time before the floor gets ripped out from under us. The ONLY thing more "Rangers" than getting back to back top 2 picks for the first time in 70 years is for the team to try and develop them differently from previous top prospects and those two kids having historically bad first (and second in Kakko's case) seasons. None of this is based on what other fans have to say. I've pushed back on several occasions when they have tried to claim that Kakko is a bust. I don't think they are busts at all. But I am very concerned by the Rangers' approach to developing them, and nobody can say that this is where they expected the two players to be at this point in their young careers.
When the experts in the sport are saying guys like Kakko and Laf are the most NHL-ready prospects in their drafts, it's difficult for the average fan to temper expectations when the baseline from the get-go is "This player is going to be able to step in immediately and be effective due to these attributes/this playing history."
The other difficult thing to nail down is that there has been a shift in general in the game (scoring, play styles, speed, etc). These prospects, outside of guys like McDavid, haven't really stepped in and became mega stars instantly. The expectation historically is that a 1st or 2nd overall will be a monster straight out of the gate because that's what historically has been seen and those are considered the best players available. While they probably will end up near the top of their draft classes, the shift in the game makes for different looking freshman/sophomore years for guys like Kakko and Laf now. I think it was Edge that had gone through the recent handful of drafts and noted that no one had really cemented themselves as top flight offensive producers yet. That poses the question of "Are these players just not what they were billed as, or is this shift in the game affecting everyone including these consensus high pick talents?" I think it's much more of the latter.
Not to mention which of these experts, in the case of a Lafreniere for example, never actually contemplated making predictions about a top prospect who has not played for 10 consecutive months due to a global pandemic?
effen
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- Jun 27, 2003
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