Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[smoneil]

How could you assume that he and management aren't on the exact same page in terms of their development?

As others have noted, this whole "don't play the high end kids" approach goes against how pretty much every team has developed their 1st/2nd overall picks. When you have 1st/2nd overall picks, "development" is usually as simple as "don't f*** it up." It's like teaching an honors class. The best thing you can do is guide, give opportunities, and stay out of their way. Quinn is getting in their way. Like AV (and this has honestly been the biggest problem with this franchise for the last decade), Quinn seems to think he's just smarter than everyone else who has ever coached such prospects. The results have been abysmal. I haven't called for Gorton's firing yet, because I generally view the GM's job as talent acquisition, and he has done a phenomenal job of that. But if he's on board with this development "plan" for our four best young forwards, then he should share a cab back to Boston with Quinn.

 

[RGY]

Not defending Quinn but just adding accurate context- Howden and Rooney were out there often as second centers on important draws which, actually is good coaching.

But... Howden was out there on one occasion.... for an OFFENSIVE ZONE FACEOFF... with Zibanejad lined up behind him... AND LOST....

Why in the f*** was he even out there for that? Lol I mean that one was comical. Why even bother with that bum.

Rooney I can understand because he can at least knock some people over but Howden just gets bodied all over the ice, losing one puck battle after another, slow to every play. And even then there is still no real justification to have Rooney play that much more over Lafreniere and Chytil.

 

[True Blue]

The argument was Quinn SHOULD NOT have had a goalie rotation to start and should have given Shesty #1 time. That did not happen until Shesty came back.

I don't know how more simple I could put it for you. I'm really trying to make you understand but you don't seem capable.

But here was no rotation. You had two goalies that were playing fairly poorly for the first 8 games of the season. Whether you like it or not, a coaches job is to try to figure out which goalie is not going to let in a beach ball or 3 in. So trying to get someone, anyone to stop a 50 foot slap shot is not really the same thing as having a goalie rotation.

And that is further evidenced by the amount of games that Shesterkin has received as starts right after his game came around. Not sure what you are not capable of grasping here. This seems fairly simple.

 

[RGY]

I dont blindly support Quinn, in fact I have been in plenty of arguments with the pro-Quinners, but earlier in the season those kids wouldn't have sniffed the ice for more than 2 mins after the game was tied. This org is making a full push for the playoffs whether it's realistic or not, and I just found it a positive that the kids were on for the end rather than say Rooney's line. Just bc I gave a nod for that doesn't mean I ignore my other issues...

Sorry, my post was not totally directed at you in terms of the overall outlook of how the kids ice time was managed yesterday.

But I also dont find it to mean DQ is trustful of them because he put them out there with 30 seconds to go up by 2 with a center ice faceoff. It really doesnt mean much. Had he not done that, the ice time would have roughly been:

Kakko: 10:50
Chytil: 7:50
Lafreniere: 8:45

That is pathetic.

 

[True Blue]

Be more dramatic, you really cant.

But to be fair at least youre consistent in your constant undying blind love and defense of Quinn. Team blows 4-0 and 3-0 leads in back to back games against one of the worst teams in the league because they just stop skating, the whole team, and you respond with the same sarcastic bullshit. Like I said at least youre consistent!

As are you if you took them blowing a lead a sign that the team quit on Quinn. In most circles that is called grasping at straws.

The funny thing is that virtually everyone that has not morphed into a complete anti-Quinn troll completely acknowledges his faults and where he falls short. The problem comes in where each and every thing that happens is made to look like he is some sort of mastermind that had pulled the wool over the eyes of Gorton and JD and continues to do each and everything wrong. From wrong goalie, to ruining prospects, to having no system, to being outcoached to not having the proper Zamboni for the ice to not ensuring that there is ample sunshine outside. Just like friggin' woodpeckers just pecking at the same spot.

 

[True Blue]

You're just a troll at this point.

Hahahahahaha! You are basically a joke. Actually, I take that back. There is no basically about it. Oh, for the power of the mighty kettle!

 

[True Blue]

How could you assume that he and management aren't on the exact same page in terms of their development?

Because Quinn secretly runs the organization and posters here are all privy to each and every conversation that goes on.

 

[True Blue]

Genuinely convinced Quinnbros don't actually like or rate Quinn, they just don't like that people aren't happy with him for whatever reason

Or maybe it is just that reading in every single thread and virtually every single post that somehow winds up that all is Quinn's fault gets a bit tiresome? Especially when it is the same trolls tying the same thing over and over and over again.

 

[haohmaru]

Incoming "But you know what I meant" excuse

Then an incoming cast no stones break no glass will be forthcoming as well

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

As others have noted, this whole "don't play the high end kids" approach goes against how pretty much every team has developed their 1st/2nd overall picks. When you have 1st/2nd overall picks, "development" is usually as simple as "don't f*** it up." It's like teaching an honors class. The best thing you can do is guide, give opportunities, and stay out of their way. Quinn is getting in their way. Like AV (and this has honestly been the biggest problem with this franchise for the last decade), Quinn seems to think he's just smarter than everyone else who has ever coached such prospects. The results have been abysmal. I haven't called for Gorton's firing yet, because I generally view the GM's job as talent acquisition, and he has done a phenomenal job of that. But if he's on board with this development "plan" for our four best young forwards, then he should share a cab back to Boston with Quinn.

What others? People on a message board? Most first and second overall picks end up on teams bereft of talent, that's why the play so much. Do you honestly think you know more about developing an NHL player than Quinn, Gorton and JD? Really? Laffreniere barely deserved the ice time he got earlier in the season, he wasn't good. The answer to a player not playing well isn't giving him more ice.

Because Quinn secretly runs the organization and posters here are all privy to each and every conversation that goes on.

It's comical.

 

[haveandare]

Or maybe it is just that reading in every single thread and virtually every single post that somehow winds up that all is Quinn's fault gets a bit tiresome? Especially when it is the same trolls tying the same thing over and over and over again.

Yup. When, if ever, does anyone consistently praise the work he’s done? People who blame him for everything point to this group of people who love him - but that group doesn’t exist. People take issue with some very thin arguments that try to blame him for ridiculous things - that’s not the same as loving him.

 

[kovazub94]

What others? People on a message board? Most first and second overall picks end up on teams bereft of talent, that's why the play so much. Do you honestly think you know more about developing an NHL player than Quinn, Gorton and JD on the development of these players? Really? Laffreniere barely deserved the ice time he got earlier in the season, he wasn't good. The answer to a player not playing well isn't giving him more ice.

It's comical.

The funniest thing is that "Quinn thinks he's smarter than anyone" and not actually the other way around (full-of-themselves internet posters think that they are smarter than Quinn, Gorton and Davidson)

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The funniest thing is that "Quinn thinks he's smarter than anyone" and not actually the other way around (full-of-themselves internet posters think that they are smarter than Quinn, Gorton and Davidson)

20 minutes of meaningless ice is so much better than 10 minutes of ice in a playoff push, didn't you know? There was a poster no too long ago that said they'd rather lose the game if it meant Laff getting more ice time.

Yup. When, if ever, does anyone consistently praise the work he’s done? People who blame him for everything point to this group of people who love him - but that group doesn’t exist. People take issue with some very thin arguments that try to blame him for ridiculous things - that’s not the same as loving him.

Bingo

 

[JHS]

You mean he's .500 for the last 3 years in which they tore the team down, moved on from a bunch of vets and Hank and iced the youngest team in the league night in night out (not counting the Devils)? I'd say .500 is pretty damn good.

Is .500 what you want for the next 3 years? I'd rather not settle for this. If you want to have backwards looking arguments we can both cherry pick points that have been beaten to death on here. The only question is, do you want Quinn to be the guy moving the organization to the next level? The answer should be a resounding NO

 

[kovazub94]

Yup. When, if ever, does anyone consistently praise the work he’s done? People who blame him for everything point to this group of people who love him - but that group doesn’t exist. People take issue with some very thin arguments that try to blame him for ridiculous things - that’s not the same as loving him.

Seriously.

I feel like there's an alternative universe where every thread on HFNYRB every day starts with a post - "Quinn has done an outstanding job having the sun rise from the East..." that I can't see but am reading a just as ridiculous pushback posts as retorts. FML

 

[tomobson]

Management has messed up big time. KK and Laf should have been sent off to Europe to actually play and develop if they wanted so badly to make a playoff push. You have kids who are scared of making mistakes and play low event/cycle third line hockey which isn't a bad thing but they can't do it well enough yet because they are not those type of players and never have been. On top of that, they are letting Quinn get away with stuffing all three of them on one line so he can bench them even if it's not their fault but just because the game is too close for comfort. I don't see the plan here and if Panarin and Fox weren't such elite hart/norris finalist type of players we would be getting demolished and we would have absolutely nothing to show for it if it wasn't for them. Imagine KK and Laf coming here towards the end of this season after playing serious minutes in Europe somewhere coming in looking like actual developed top prospects instead of the mid round draft picks we are stuck with right now. The rangers highest draft picks ever are not being developed. They bought into the hype of these two players and figured they could come in and just be inserted into the top 6 with no issues. Instead of saying, damn we f***ed up let's ship these guys out and develop them...nope, lets leave them here with our HC that has no interest in developing young players.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Is .500 what you want for the next 3 years? I'd rather not settle for this. If you want to have backwards looking arguments we can both cherry pick points that have been beaten to death on here. The only question is, do you want Quinn to be the guy moving the organization to the next level? The answer should be a resounding NO

Is .500 (not actually accurate they're 92-80-25 in his tenure here) three years removed "the letter" and the start of the rebuild acceptable? Absolutely. Better than I thought they would be actually. The clock starts ticking for Quinn and the team next season.

 

[JHS]

Seriously.

I feel like there's an alternative universe where every thread on HFNYRB every day starts with a post - "Quinn has done an outstanding job having the sun rise from the East..." that I can't see but am reading a just as ridiculous pushback posts as retorts. FML

I think some of the issues I have with the pro-Quinn group center around a need to defend obviously flawed choices the guy makes by ignoring the obvious choice he made by clouding it over with "it's a young team...". For example, yesterday, playing a guy who has not played since February over Hajek, who, while not looking incredible, has looked serviceable-- and that decision almost costing them 2 points( Bitetto was out there for 2 goals in the third) is just a BAD coaching move. Simple as that-- and there are many of those just BAD coaching moves made throughout his time here. It is entirely possible to be a bad coach who works with young players all the while having those young players develop. It's also entirely possible to be a good NHL coach, who is not well suited to work with young players. Coaches deserve to be evaluated by choices they make that are entirely up to them. We can all point to several that are just hard to justify this year alone. I'm looking ahead and trying to see what a team like this will look like this time next year under Quinn and I just don't think it would look like a tightly run, well organized, system based team. I see some of that starting to emerge which makes me less determined Quinn must go after this season but, a realistic projection into the future means realistically evaluating the decision making ability of the guy in charge of the bench, and when looked at objectively, he's botched more up than he's solved.

 

[JHS]

Is .500 (not actually accurate they're 92-80-25 in his tenure here) three years removed "the letter" and the start of the rebuild acceptable? Absolutely. Better than I thought they would be actually. The clock starts ticking for Quinn and the team next season.

Ok fair- and I would agree they are performing( as a team) better than expected this season. Last season they were historically bad by almost every defensive metric out there. Getting rid of Ruff accelerated their record a lot. Let's also not continue to assume Quinn is a miracle man( not saying you are) because he does have a talented roster to play this year!

 

[True Blue]

Management has messed up big time. KK and Laf should have been sent off to Europe to actually play and develop if they wanted so badly to make a playoff push. You have kids who are scared of making mistakes and play low event/cycle third line hockey which isn't a bad thing but they can't do it well enough yet because they are not those type of players and never have been.

Isn't this what conjecture looks like?

On top of that, they are letting Quinn get away with stuffing all three of them on one line so he can bench them even if it's not their fault but just because the game is too close for comfort.

Who are "they"?

I don't see the plan here and if Panarin and Fox weren't such elite hart/norris finalist type of players we would be getting demolished and we would have absolutely nothing to show for it if it wasn't for them.

Well, there is that 10 game span where Panarin did not play. So there is that. And while both are important, they are hardly the only necessary players. As evidenced by what happens when Mika was MIA.

Imagine KK and Laf coming here towards the end of this season after playing serious minutes in Europe somewhere coming in looking like actual developed top prospects instead of the mid round draft picks we are stuck with right now.

I see that we have come full circle. First they were being ruined. Then we took several weeks off from them being ruined. Now they are being ruined all over again.

The rangers highest draft picks ever are not being developed.

Gotta love interned message boards experts.

They bought into the hype of these two players and figured they could come in and just be inserted into the top 6 with no issues. Instead of saying, damn we f***ed up let's ship these guys out and develop them...nope, lets leave them here with our HC that has no interest in developing young players.

Hopelessly ruined. No advancement in their game what so ever. They would have been much better off in the KHL. At least that way they would be immune from ruination the way Kravstov is. Or is it too late for him as well?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Ok fair- and I would agree they are performing( as a team) better than expected this season. Last season they were historically bad by almost every defensive metric out there. Getting rid of Ruff accelerated their record a lot. Let's also not continue to assume Quinn is a miracle man( not saying you are) because he does have a talented roster to play this year!

I don't care if Gorton hires Biggie's hologram to coach the team sometime next year, honestly. But we've taken this coach hate to ridiculous levels. I don't love Quinn and I don't hate him but I trust the management team. And I agree with them that the answer to developing young players isn't just to automatically give them tons of ice time and PPI time when they haven't done anything to show they should be getting that time, regardless of where they were drafted. Laff was terrible to start the season but he's improving. Isn't that what's most important? I don't care how many goals the kids score this year either, I care about how many they'll score in future seasons though and I think it's a good thing they are developing a complete game. I've said it thousands of times, I think 10 minutes a night in high pressure games will do more for their development than 15-20 minutes of meaningless hockey.

 

[kovazub94]

Management has messed up big time. KK and Laf should have been sent off to Europe to actually play and develop if they wanted so badly to make a playoff push. You have kids who are scared of making mistakes and play low event/cycle third line hockey which isn't a bad thing but they can't do it well enough yet because they are not those type of players and never have been. On top of that, they are letting Quinn get away with stuffing all three of them on one line so he can bench them even if it's not their fault but just because the game is too close for comfort. I don't see the plan here and if Panarin and Fox weren't such elite hart/norris finalist type of players we would be getting demolished and we would have absolutely nothing to show for it if it wasn't for them. Imagine KK and Laf coming here towards the end of this season after playing serious minutes in Europe somewhere coming in looking like actual developed top prospects instead of the mid round draft picks we are stuck with right now. The rangers highest draft picks ever are not being developed. They bought into the hype of these two players and figured they could come in and just be inserted into the top 6 with no issues. Instead of saying, damn we f***ed up let's ship these guys out and develop them...nope, lets leave them here with our HC that has no interest in developing young players.

Start of the point - this is valid opinion but it's quite rare that 1OA or 2OA are not immediately on the varsity roster and instead loaded to play in Europe. Even sending them to the AHL is difficult given these prospects status.

End of the post - not so much. 1OA and 2OA are not being developed is totally off. For some reason development is mistaken with strictly accumulation of points and ignores much larger components to becoming a good player such as winning environment, playing the right way away from the puck on both sides of the rink, and earning opportunities rather than getting these handled to them (i.e. entitlement).

Lafreniere is miles better now than as relecently as 2 months ago. I don't understand how it's not apparent to everyone.

 

[JHS]

I don't care if Gorton hires Biggie's hologram to coach the team sometime next year, honestly. But we've taken this coach hate to ridiculous levels. I don't love Quinn and I don't hate him but I trust the management team. And I agree with them that the answer to developing young players isn't just to automatically give them tons of ice time and PPI time when they haven't done anything to show they should be getting that time, regardless of where they were drafted. Laff was terrible to start the season but he's improving. Isn't that what's most important? I don't care how many goals the kids score this year either, I care about how many they'll score in future seasons though and I think it's a good thing they are developing a complete game. I've said it thousands of times, I think 10 minutes a night in high pressure games will do more for their development than 15-20 minutes of meaningless hockey.

Agreed- anyone advocating the "play the young guys all the time" have no idea what they are talking about. All that would do is expose their weakness and lack of NHL readiness. Quinn is handling the young guys well enough by sheltering them from heavy responsibility early on. Their usage needs to be in positions they can succeed in and be successful in. Throwing them out there every other shift is absurd. What's up for debate is if he's established a culture in which the young guys can make mistakes and still recover from those mistakes( I'd argue he has not) and if he's developed a clear system in which players know what's expected of them( I'd argue he has not.) But yes- your general point about using players in appropriate slots to aid development is one I agree with.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Agreed- anyone advocating the "play the young guys all the time" have no idea what they are talking about. All that would do is expose their weakness and lack of NHL readiness. Quinn is handling the young guys well enough by sheltering them from heavy responsibility early on. Their usage needs to be in positions they can succeed in and be successful in. Throwing them out there every other shift is absurd. What's up for debate is if he's established a culture in which the young guys can make mistakes and still recover from those mistakes( I'd argue he has not) and if he's developed a clear system in which players know what's expected of them( I'd argue he has not.) But yes- your general point about using players in appropriate slots to aid development is one I agree with.

And these are completely relevant things to discuss and fair points. I don't have an answer for you regarding the bold, I tend to not be as pessimistic about the situation, but whatever. I think we'll get some more definitive answers about Quinn by the middle of next season. There will be a pre season and no Covid to deal with (hopefully), the kids will be a little older and more established, and their identity should be more solidified. Basically, he/they won't have quite as many excuses. Maybe he is the guy to take them to the next level, maybe he's not. But no one really knows. If the season ended tomorrow, I'd be more pleased with where the team is then pissed off though.

 

[fm]

I wanted Quinn's head on a platter earlier this year, but full credit to him lately. He's taken some lessons from the Knoblauch streak and applied them and the team is humming and the kids ARE looking good.