Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

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Oh, like 30 other coaches who didn’t win the Cup? Cause it’s “results league”?

What's with you and SingingBluesOnBroadway going to the extreme? Results don't man cup in every situation. In the situation of the Rangers their results were a disappointment. We could have and should have have been a playoff team. Now if you're Colorado, results mean cup, if you're Buffalo results mean not doing dead last and showing progress. Why are you taking that as "cup or bust"?
 
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Did I say anything of the sort? This is a complete strawman. A coach whose team underperformed deserves to lose his job, maybe if they underperform two years in a row, but last year that team would have likely missed the playoffs and got swept in the play in round, only team to accomplish that feat in the league. This year, despite having elite or borderline elite players at every level the guy will miss the playoffs most likely, that's an underperformance if I've ever seen one. Honestly, I know people will be all acchually about it, but this team has underperformed, standings wise more so than any team since the 2004-2005 lockout.

Yes you did say exactly this. Every other coach has an “excuse” why he didn’t so how Quinn is different especially his “excuses” are far more validity.
 
Yes you did say exactly this. Every other coach has an “excuse” why he didn’t so how Quinn is different especially his “excuses” are far more validity.

I did not say exactly this, don't tell me what I said. Results are relative. I never said it's a "cup winning business". Don't put words in my mouth. The Rangers should have made the playoffs but didn't. His results were shit. If we had New Jersey talent and missed it would be one thing. Missing with the talent he has now is unacceptable.
 
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I love how the youngest team in the league:
- overcame Houdini level disappearing acts from their major stars for large chunks of the season
- is now getting meaningful contributions from the kids
- exceeded everyone’s wildest expectations with their young defenseman
- taken major steps forward team defense and penalty killing
- is pushing for the playoffs in a very competitive division

...and the narrative is we need to “fire this coach”

I have my beefs with Quinn, but Christ, we need some perspective around here. If this run started a little earlier there’s a decent chance he’d be in the Jack Adams conversation.


I will give you that Quinn had to deal with more issues/distractions than any other coach in the league. But the rest of your statements are either flawed or incorrect.

-"Getting meaningful contributions from the kids"? Which kids? The four who routinely get the least minutes on the team? Chytil is the kid contributing the most, to the point that he's statistically having a career year, and Quinn seems to absolutely f***ing hate the kid, giving him the kind of minutes you'd expect from someone on their way out of the league altogether.

-Yeah, the defense and the pk are much improved, and the young D are a big part of that. Wait, that sounds familiar. Young defensemen stepping into important roles and thriving...where have I heard that before...oh, right. Pittsburgh. It was what Jacques Martin was known for. It seems a bit more likely that the improvement on D has to do with the arrival of the guy known for doing exactly that.

-Re: pushing for a playoff spot--it's a statistical improbability, and ever since Philly fell of the face of respectability, we aren't even in a deadly conference or anything. There are four good teams, two mediocre teams, and two bad teams. We are one of the mediocre teams. It's not a real surprise that we find ourselves just on the outside looking in.

And yes, the narrative is that we need to "fire this coach" because he has the asinine idea that the best way to develop high end forward talent is to ensure that they never see the ice except in fits and spurts. I want to see all of the young guns on one of the power play units. I want to see Chytil with Panarin and Kravtsov. I want to see Kreider with Strome and Kakko and Laf with Zibanejad and Buch. I want to see EACH of those lines getting at least 15-17 minutes a night. Because the kids need to play.
 
I will give you that Quinn had to deal with more issues/distractions than any other coach in the league. But the rest of your statements are either flawed or incorrect.

-"Getting meaningful contributions from the kids"? Which kids? The four who routinely get the least minutes on the team? Chytil is the kid contributing the most, to the point that he's statistically having a career year, and Quinn seems to absolutely f***ing hate the kid, giving him the kind of minutes you'd expect from someone on their way out of the league altogether.

-Yeah, the defense and the pk are much improved, and the young D are a big part of that. Wait, that sounds familiar. Young defensemen stepping into important roles and thriving...where have I heard that before...oh, right. Pittsburgh. It was what Jacques Martin was known for. It seems a bit more likely that the improvement on D has to do with the arrival of the guy known for doing exactly that.

-Re: pushing for a playoff spot--it's a statistical improbability, and ever since Philly fell of the face of respectability, we aren't even in a deadly conference or anything. There are four good teams, two mediocre teams, and two bad teams. We are one of the mediocre teams. It's not a real surprise that we find ourselves just on the outside looking in.

And yes, the narrative is that we need to "fire this coach" because he has the asinine idea that the best way to develop high end forward talent is to ensure that they never see the ice except in fits and spurts. I want to see all of the young guns on one of the power play units. I want to see Chytil with Panarin and Kravtsov. I want to see Kreider with Strome and Kakko and Laf with Zibanejad and Buch. I want to see EACH of those lines getting at least 15-17 minutes a night. Because the kids need to play.

There are divisions with better top end talent and better bottom talent but for my money this is still the most difficult division to play in because there is no other division that as a Boston as a 4 seed. The Rangers aren't great, they're better than mediocre. They're top 10 in goals for and against and top 5 on the PK, they're even now average on PP, if not for Covid making Zibanejad a useless scrub for 15 games, that would be top 10 too. That's precisely the problem, the Rangers are a good team coached to mediocre results.
 
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...
-Yeah, the defense and the pk are much improved, and the young D are a big part of that. Wait, that sounds familiar. Young defensemen stepping into important roles and thriving...where have I heard that before...oh, right. Pittsburgh. It was what Jacques Martin was known for. It seems a bit more likely that the improvement on D has to do with the arrival of the guy known for doing exactly that...

Is that the same Jacques Martin who thought signing Jack Johnson was a good idea or a different Jacques Martin?
 
What did he do to deserve to stay? This is a results league.
D0es this mean that every coach who does not make the playoffs deserved to be fired?

You are sadly mistaken if you believe that if you believe that pure numerical results are the reason whether or not Quinn gets fired.

Speaking of results, this team was expected to be a bubble team. As of today, that is exactly what they are. And knowing that, if you were told that the starting goalie would miss 10 games and the team needed to win games with their third string goalie, that Panarin was going to miss 10 games and that Mika would do his best imitation of Blair Betts for the first 20 games, the bet would have been that the team is in contention for a lottery spot.

Oh, and in the other 3 divisions, the team would be in a playoff spot. Speaking of being a results league.
 
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I did not say exactly this, don't tell me what I said. Results are relative. I never said it's a "cup winning business". Don't put words in my mouth. The Rangers should have made the playoffs but didn't. His results were shit. If we had New Jersey talent and missed it would be one thing. Missing with the talent he has now is unacceptable.

This is the type of post why I used to think you’re a teenager. Both me and @SingnBluesOnBroadway independently called you on the same thing but you still continue.

NJD? Well, let me pretend that stupid reasoning works and say the Devils should be making the playoffs. How could they not? They have TWO 1OA centers on the roster, another top-10 center, a $9m defenseman and outstanding D prospect in Smith and slew of other solid youngsters. What’s stopping them? How this reasoning works?

That’s besides the fact that the Rangers are in the hunt and seem to be able to stay till the end, while NJD for all intents and purposes might as well end the season.

The Rangers are one of the top teams in the NHL since around mid-March. Now think what occurrences dug them so deep until then that they still can’t recover? These are on surface and have been mentioned repeatedly, and oh yeah Quinn’s coaching is among them.

P.S. Now @True Blue called you up on the same thing. I guess we’re all idiots and lack reading comprehension or mental capacity to understand your point.
 
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Is that the same Jacques Martin who thought signing Jack Johnson was a good idea or a different Jacques Martin?

Yup. Same guy. Brought in a dirt cheap veteran who knows his system to work with the kids on our blueline. Barely played him before the injury. Want to try addressing the point that I was making, or is your point just going to continue to be baseless assertions followed by snark? Based on their respective histories, it seems pretty likely that Martin is the reason for the improvement in defense. It is literally what he was known for doing in Pittsburgh.
 
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And yet the D is the overwhelmingly worst part of the team right now.

You're the only person I have ever seen say that signing Johnson was a good idea.
 
Reread your own post. You know what’s clearly coming through? That you think you know better than Quinn how to develop prospects and you’re upset that he doesn’t do how you want it done. And you know what? even though you’ve been posting here for six whole years longer than me (lol) I put my trust in Quinn’s approach because factually - it works.

Don’t know why I need to list it again but under Quinn Buchnevich turned into two-way 1st line force at forward. Chytil at 21 is over .5 PPG center, Kakko improved by leaps and bounds compared to last year and his production (with limited minutes and opportunities) is very much on a par with 1OA in his draft, and Lafreniere is miles better right now than at the start of the season. So claiming that they are ruined is going completely against the facts.

Now, as far as the number of posts goes, you’re right - my count would’ve been much lower if there were just a little less stupidity on the board which is lately at the level it’s never been in the past. And for some reason I don’t see you righteously “fighting” posters who barely joined a year or two ago and have a number of posts that exceeds yours and mine combined. Why’s that? Don’t answer it’s rhetorical.

P.S. What’s your next challenge? An excessive number of likes?

At the request of folks in the roster building thread, I moved this discussion from there to here.

This is the kind of nonsense that makes so many people just ignore you and the other Quinn acolytes. You never address any of the issues. You just build straw men and then spike the ball when you think you've "won" an argument that nobody was making in the first place. Even dopier, you make claims that are absolutely moronic and then complain about the stupidity of the other people on these boards.

For example--Look at your first paragraph in the quoted post above. At no point did I claim that I personally had better hockey knowledge overall than Quinn. That's absurd. It's like saying that anyone who criticizes a player is saying that they are more talented than that player. I criticize Quinn because he's taking an approach (NOT playing top prospects) that literally nobody has taken before and the reason that is frustrating is because, contrary to the "fact" that you offer, it DOESN'T work. Ask anyone other than the small crowd slobbing on Quinn whether or not this team has been successful in developing our top forward prospects. Ask anyone whether or not a .3 ppg through the first 100 games is considered successful. Ask anyone whether a 28 point pace is "successful" for a first overall draft pick. The defense is working. The top vets are working. The goalie is working (now that he's got his head out of his ass and recognizes that he had an obvious #1). In other words, all the stuff that was developed before he got here, and all the stuff run by Martin (which was a train wreck last year) is going swimmingly. Oh yeah, and we are still unlikely to make the post-season. So Quinn is sacrificing the development of the kids and we STILL probably won't get any benefit from it.

Now on to paragraph 2. These are the "accomplishments" you are laying at Quinn's feet:

-"Developing" Buchnevich--a 25 year old forward who was 23 years old with almost 200 career games to his credit before Quinn even got here. Really? Why not give him credit for Lundqvist's career while you are at it? Buchnevich has been progressing each year. The only two differences this season are that he's playing a couple minutes more per game and he's rocking the PK (again, Jacques Martin's area).

-You are actually giving him credit for Chytil?! Yeah, Chytil is having a career year in terms of the underlying numbers. In terms of actual production? He's only got 16 points because Quinn won't play him. His minutes have not only been cut; they've been slashed by a minute and a half, and they are even lower than his average over the last 15 games. Quinn completely removed him from the PP. There is no bigger example of Quinn royally f***ing up an asset than what he's doing with Filip Chytil. KK, Laf, and Krav have pedigree and should get minutes to get comfortable in the league. Chytil has actually EARNED minutes, and he's seen his ice time massively cut instead.

-Re: Kakk0, he was on par with Hughes last year. Both players improved massively on defense. The difference is that Hughes has just about doubled Kakko's production this year. And Kakko was expected to be better than Hughes in their first couple of seasons because Hughes had the body of a 12 year old. Any objective observer can look at the Rangers development of Kakko and Laf and 99 out of 100 are going to say they are being mismanaged/screwed up. And just look at today's game. Through two periods, all four of the kids have a point. Chytil, Krav, and Laf have had the least amount of ice time. Blackwell has almost twice the TOI of Chytil. It's ridiculous.

As for your snit over the post-count comment, that was solely in response to your characterization of the "fire Quinn" crowd as filling the boards with "noise." On more than one occasion (every power play goal for a bit as just one example), I see the pro-Quinn folks jumping in with snide comments. The noise--at the VERY least--is coming from both sides.
 
And yet the D is the overwhelmingly worst part of the team right now.

You're the only person I have ever seen say that signing Johnson was a good idea.

And again, you try to pin an argument on me that I never made. You implied that Martin can't have anything to do with the improvement on D solely because he brought in Johnson. My point was simply that it isn't uncommon for a coach to bring in a "teaching vet," for the new system, he cost almost nothing and rarely played even when healthy. JJ was obviously here as a short-term place-holder until one of the kids (Miller, Reunanen, etc). Miller was ready from day one, and JJ only played 13 games. Your post wasn't a contribution; it was a deflection.

The D has been significantly better this season. The bottom pair is a bit of a mess, but the top 4 has been generally great. That's mainly down to the arrival of Jacques Martin.
 
And again, you try to pin an argument on me that I never made. You implied that Martin can't have anything to do with the improvement on D solely because he brought in Johnson. My point was simply that it isn't uncommon for a coach to bring in a "teaching vet," for the new system, he cost almost nothing and rarely played even when healthy. JJ was obviously here as a short-term place-holder until one of the kids (Miller, Reunanen, etc). Miller was ready from day one, and JJ only played 13 games. Your post wasn't a contribution; it was a deflection.

The D has been significantly better this season. The bottom pair is a bit of a mess, but the top 4 has been generally great. That's mainly down to the arrival of Jacques Martin.

Martin gets the credit for adding Miller and for Fox and Lindgren naturally growing?

We disagree.

You did say it was a good move to sign Johnson. You are literally the only person I've ever heard with that opinion.
 
Martin gets the credit for adding Miller and for Fox and Lindgren naturally growing?

We disagree.

You did say it was a good move to sign Johnson. You are literally the only person I've ever heard with that opinion.

Literally just went back and double checked. No, I did not ever say it was a good move to sign Johnson. Stop making shit up.
 
Literally just went back and double checked. No, I did not ever say it was a good move to sign Johnson. Stop making shit up.

"My point was simply that it isn't uncommon for a coach to bring in a "teaching vet," for the new system, he cost almost nothing and rarely played even when healthy".

Was that a criticism of the signing?

How about this?

"Brought in a dirt cheap veteran who knows his system to work with the kids on our blueline. Barely played him before the injury".

That's twice.
 
"My point was simply that it isn't uncommon for a coach to bring in a "teaching vet," for the new system, he cost almost nothing and rarely played even when healthy".

Was that a criticism of the signing?

How about this?

"Brought in a dirt cheap veteran who knows his system to work with the kids on our blueline. Barely played him before the injury".

That's twice.

Odd that you trimmed out this quote from the same post: "You implied that Martin can't have anything to do with the improvement on D solely because he brought in Johnson."--that pretty clearly indicates that I viewed Johnson as a dubious signing, a negative that shouldn't outweigh the positive.

I wasn't a fan of the signing. There's a HUGE difference between "understanding" why he did what he did and saying that I think it was a good move. At no point did I ever say that I thought it was a good move. I said I understood why coaches do that and that ultimately it didn't hurt the team like we all thought it would (I know a lot of us were worried he'd get paired with Trouba on the top pair).

But again, that was obvious from what I wrote, and you continue to misrepresent it to deflect from the fact that Martin has done the same things here that he was praised for doing in Pittsburgh (ie: bringing along young defensemen and integrating them into the lineup while improving the PK).

So I will ask one more time--stop making shit up.
 
Odd that you trimmed out this quote from the same post: "You implied that Martin can't have anything to do with the improvement on D solely because he brought in Johnson."--that pretty clearly indicates that I viewed Johnson as a dubious signing, a negative that shouldn't outweigh the positive.

I wasn't a fan of the signing. There's a HUGE difference between "understanding" why he did what he did and saying that I think it was a good move. At no point did I ever say that I thought it was a good move. I said I understood why coaches do that and that ultimately it didn't hurt the team like we all thought it would (I know a lot of us were worried he'd get paired with Trouba on the top pair).

But again, that was obvious from what I wrote, and you continue to misrepresent it to deflect from the fact that Martin has done the same things here that he was praised for doing in Pittsburgh (ie: bringing along young defensemen and integrating them into the lineup while improving the PK).

So I will ask one more time--stop making shit up.

Stop saying it's okay to sign the worst defenseman in hockey, but you were against it. It's one or the other, no matter how many words you write.
 
Stop saying it's okay to sign the worst defenseman in hockey, but you were against it. It's one or the other, no matter how many words you write.

I was against it. I understand why coaches do it. It ultimately didn't hurt us. That's the kindergarten version of what I said that seemingly confused the f*** out of you. None of those three statements exclude the other two from being true, and I can't help it if you're too dim to figure that out.

Stop making shit up.
 
I will give you that Quinn had to deal with more issues/distractions than any other coach in the league. But the rest of your statements are either flawed or incorrect.

-"Getting meaningful contributions from the kids"? Which kids? The four who routinely get the least minutes on the team? Chytil is the kid contributing the most, to the point that he's statistically having a career year, and Quinn seems to absolutely f***ing hate the kid, giving him the kind of minutes you'd expect from someone on their way out of the league altogether.

-Yeah, the defense and the pk are much improved, and the young D are a big part of that. Wait, that sounds familiar. Young defensemen stepping into important roles and thriving...where have I heard that before...oh, right. Pittsburgh. It was what Jacques Martin was known for. It seems a bit more likely that the improvement on D has to do with the arrival of the guy known for doing exactly that.

-Re: pushing for a playoff spot--it's a statistical improbability, and ever since Philly fell of the face of respectability, we aren't even in a deadly conference or anything. There are four good teams, two mediocre teams, and two bad teams. We are one of the mediocre teams. It's not a real surprise that we find ourselves just on the outside looking in.

And yes, the narrative is that we need to "fire this coach" because he has the asinine idea that the best way to develop high end forward talent is to ensure that they never see the ice except in fits and spurts. I want to see all of the young guns on one of the power play units. I want to see Chytil with Panarin and Kravtsov. I want to see Kreider with Strome and Kakko and Laf with Zibanejad and Buch. I want to see EACH of those lines getting at least 15-17 minutes a night. Because the kids need to play.
He absolutely have no patience for Chytil and Kakko, every mistake is a period worthy benching.
I really don't get it, they've been good for the majority of time and he don't play them. Chytil can't get PP time, even though we have Blackwell and Miller being bad out there, Kakko is amazing on open ice and he doesn't get OT time.
Lafreniere is getting the rookie treatment, though he improved leaps and bounds in the last month.
The only rookie that he ever treated well was Howden. Freaking Howden!
 
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