Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[kovazub94]

Yeah, I agree 100%.

Lafreniere's thing looks more and more like we just don't use him on the powerplay the more you dig into the numbers. We probably should imo but that's a whole other discussion.

Kakko is now more than 10 points off those averages that Edge posted. I get what Edge is saying about that second year bug and how Kakko is actually improving his overall game, but his production has gone down in the second year just like the rest.

I'm not saying defense and possession don't matter at all, but I've said it before, I didn't want Bennett or Nichushkin with that pick.

Kakko who returned from Covid quarantine doesn’t look like Kakko from earlier in the season when he regularly was one of the better forwards almost every game (I hope you don’t need to go back to check those PGT to remember). What conclusion would you make? Coaches’ fault?

 

[kovazub94]

Rangers are lucky Dach mutilated his wrist at the WJC. Because if he was playing this season he'd be at a PPG centering Kane and Debrincat.

Just as the Rangers are lucky that Lafreniere didn’t have a normal preseason prep or that Kakko had Covid? In one situation context is allowed but not when it comes to the Rangers prospects? It’s Quinn’s fault, of course.

 

[SA16]

Zibanejad 5v4 sh% by year as a Ranger

14.3
21.0
16.7
26.3
3.1

I see no reason to consider wild changes when the main issue is a shooting percent drop. Has he been missing the net a lot? Yea but that has nothing to do with this. Nobody shoots 3% on PPs. Even the worst shooter in the league would do better than that long term.

 

[kovazub94]

Why is the second unit such a mess, anyway? Tactically, execution-wise, whatever, it performs about as badly as our backup goalies. Even if it gets a Buch or a Strome (decent vet offensive players - certainly "PP1" guys on a traditional terrible rebuilding team) you see the same results, it's a miracle if they can hold the zone.

IMO It’s a COMBINATION of players not executing things like zone entry and Quinn’s 4LHS thing.

 

[eco's bones]

Kakko who returned from Covid quarantine doesn’t look like Kakko from earlier in the season when he regularly was one of the better forwards almost every game (I hope you don’t need to go back to check those PGT to remember). What conclusion would you make? Coaches’ fault?

I think another thing with Kakko is we see a player doing more to try to drive the play. We’re just not seeing the results yet. Zibanejad being off this year had affected pretty much all the lines on the team. It’s easier to defend against when a team’s best players aren’t playing effectively.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

the issues with Quinn are the constant horrendous starts and being consistently inconsistent. Martin has helped us tremendously on the defensive side. Whoever it is that’s coaching our offense needs to go. But the ridiculous mumber of bench minors shows a lack of organization and structure, and it’s been an issue for a long time now. The refusal to adjust the PP also falls onto Quinn.

Maybe Quinn isn’t the problem. But we can’t know until we try something else. And now we have to be extremely worried about our top picks. Something clearly isn’t right. And it’s hard to have faith that Kravstov will do any better this time around. Deep down I don’t think the players have faith in the coaching staff for the offense. I don’t see confidence from Laf and Kakko. At some point you have to make changes. At some point we have to be ready to make a go for the Cup. We don’t look remotely close to that, and I don’t think Quinn is helping us on our long term jouney.

 

[kovazub94]

And getting back to Quinn, I'll sound like a broken record on this one, I'm more willing to buy into this idea that we have a system, and we're gonna cycle, and be responsible, and backcheck, and the whole spiel if...we did that?

I find the team unaggressive and disorganized most nights and -I hate to say it- lazy some nights.

Quinn really wants to be this Barry Trotz, John Tortorella, more recent Jon Cooper, like "buy into the machine" coach and I just don't think he has the machine.

On one end of the ice, I see it. I love Martin and I love the defensive structure. Offensively? Not enough forecheck, not enough agency, not enough in the prime scoring areas.

As a whole, if we're talking about this "team responsibility" concept? Not seeing it with the bad starts, not seeing it with the bad penalties, not seeing it with the inconsistent effort.

And if we're failing at the whole Tortorella style, I'd rather just score a bunch of f***ing goals.

I think that's why so many posters have turned on Quinn. We're not the fun and exciting AV team but we're also far from the responsible and in-your-face Torts team. We're neither of those.

Quinn never really had a full complement of players this season. You downplay Zibanejad’s struggles and don’t acknowledge how big of loss Panarin LOA was. Plus Chytil, Shesterkin, Trouba, Kakko. For a young team on the rise these factors are significant, whether you care to admit it or not.

 

[kovazub94]

It’s a bit disingenuous to combine their seasons. Kakko outscored Hughes in their rookie year 23 to 21, in five more games. This year one has taken a clear step forwards and is on pace for 46 points over 82 games. The other is on pace for 16. We can quibble over “how much better Kakko looks” this year and puck luck, special teams usage, etc. but at the end of the day, one is nearly a 50 point pace sophomore and one is beneath a 20 point pace sophomore. Advanced metrics and all the other measuring sticks, at some point, just don’t make up for a 30 point difference in production, unless you’re talking about a 70 point Patrice Bergeron versus a 100 point Taylor Hall, or something like that. Kakko may have some good underlying numbers, but he doesn’t have nearly the type of impact to negate that difference in production at this point in his career.

It’s not about “quibbling” about how Kakko looks vs "hard" production. It’s about sample size for a stat like goals that - in such small size - is also a factor of puck luck and why we need to turn to advance stats for clearer picture. Kakko pre-Covid was great from both eye test and advance stats perspective. Then Covid happened.

 

[aufheben]

There's no real need to ask why. The answer is obvious. Kreider, Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox are fixtures on PP1. That leaves one spot. I don't like Strome there. Buchnevich is a better option than Kakko/Lafreniere. The coach is trying to win games. He plays the better players there. There is always a disconnect between ownership, management, and coaching in these scenarios. Why would the coach play a worse player there which then reduces his chance to win which then increases his chance to get fired?

Putting them on our apparently legendary PP1 unit doesn’t fix their 5v5 production anyway.

Also, I’m curious how many more total points Kakko/Lafreniere would even have if they were on the PP1. Our PP1 players have what, 5 PP points on average? Congrats, Kakko would have maybe like 7 points instead of 4.

 

[kovazub94]

The first bolded shouldn't be the case anymore. At least not this year. Funny thing is, playing his "better" players on the PP hasn't worked for him at all this year. We aren't a week into the season anymore, we're about half way through the schedule. We're well beyond the point where trying ANYTHING else is a better move than to keep shoving that group down our throats. It hasn't worked, period.

Giant assumption with the 2nd too.

What a ridiculous post. Zibanejad has been coming around, plays different role and even in his current state is better than Kakko and Lafreniere. Buchnevich? I don’t even know how you would chose him and Zibanejad to try to make a case for these prospects. What a stretch.

 

[eco's bones]

Personally if the Rangers moved on from Quinn I’d be okay. One thing I find annoying though is all this lamentation over we should have hired Trotz, Quenneville, Gallant, Sutter. It seems to me it will be all this instant gratification that is almost certainly to turn into bitter disappointment when things don’t go exactly as planned which is almost an inevitability. Here on the Rangers forum we should just admit that we don’t like our head coaches whoever they happen to be. Renney, Tortorella, Vigneault and Quinn they’re all shit and so we’re their predecessors.

Whether Quinn or not I still think we need a teaching coach. Guys like Trotz, Gallant and Sutter are likely going to lean on their veterans a lot more than Quinn does.

 

[aufheben]

@Machinehead You know—w/r/t Kakko—after beating people over the head with Corsi for years, I’m kind of surprised you haven’t idolized David Quinn by now.

 

[kovazub94]

Personally if the Rangers moved on from Quinn I’d be okay. One thing I find annoying though is all this lamentation over we should have hired Trotz, Quenneville, Gallant, Sutter. It seems to me it will be all this instant gratification that is almost certainly to turn into bitter disappointment when things don’t go exactly as planned which is almost an inevitability. Here on the Rangers forum we should just admit that we don’t like our head coaches whoever they happen to be. Renney, Tortorella, Vigneault and Quinn they’re all shit and so we’re their predecessors.

Whether Quinn or not I still think we need a teaching coach. Guys like Trotz, Gallant and Sutter are likely going to lean on their veterans a lot more than Quinn does.

The same about being indifferent to whether Quinn is fired or not. But if I put myself in Gorton's shoes and start forming "accusations" HFNYRB style for the things gone wrong or not as expected - I'm pretty sure he will look at the bigger picture from the start of Quinn's tenure, discount a lot of this season's vows due to factors outside of Quinn's control, and will give Quinn more time, at least until sometime into the next season.

 

[kovazub94]

@Machinehead You know—w/r/t Kakko—after beating people over the head with Corsi for years, I’m kind of surprised you haven’t idolized David Quinn by now.

The eye-testers have finally convinced MH that advance stats are flawed.

 

[RGY]

Another coach bites the dust.

waiting Gorton... waiting....

 

[Edge]

What is the argument here? Kakko is ok, or not that bad because Jack Hughes is not performing like a true #1OA? It's ok for Kakko to not produce because other players are not producing that much more? Are we reaching, just to justify that 'everything is fine'. Do you believe this or are you just playing devils advocate?

We've seen improvement YoY. but Kakko's first 2 NHL seasons have been disappointments ( up to this point ) would you not agree?

We are ALL hoping and clinging to anything positive. It is what it is... it has been a really shitty season, for the team and for a lot of our offensive forwards. The 'dissatisfaction' is a symptom and it should subside once things start trending up. Did we all not just witness that 1st period, last game? We've been watching that level of hockey all season. The bad, ugly and dull is outweighing the good. Is it really that hard to believe that this 'bad hockey' is having a negative effects on our #2OA?

There are still some bright spots and for what we hope is a blindingly bright and silver future.

The potential argument here is that Kakko’s results are more or less in line with his peers from recent drafts. So it begs the question, is it a reflection of the player or is it part of a larger trend?

If it’s the latter, we may be in a bit of a transition period that explains a larger observation that extends beyond Rangersland.

It’s not necessarily the only factor to consider. But there might be a few more shades of gray than we are taking into consideration.

 

[Inferno]

Kakko has looked dangerous everytime he gets on the ice. For a young player thats all I need. The results will come for a guy with his pedigree.

 

[Edge]

Kakko has looked dangerous everytime he gets on the ice. For a young player thats all I need. The results will come for a guy with his pedigree.

I agree.

When I watch a young player, any player really, I tend to look for three things: how do they look on the ice, what does underlying data or information tell me, what are the results.

In Kakko's case, I see player who has looked good on the ice and looked dangerous. I've seen underlying information that shows the points should be coming. What I haven't seen is the results from an offensive production standpoint (other aspects are there).

So it's getting over that last hurtle that remains the task at hand. But it's much harder to consider clearing that third hurdle unless the first two hurdles are cleared.

 

[kovazub94]

I agree.

When I watch a young player, any player really, I tend to look for three things: how do they look on the ice, what does underlying data or information tell me, what are the results.

In Kakko's case, I see player who has looked good on the ice and looked dangerous. I've seen underlying information that shows the points should be coming. What I haven't seen is the results from an offensive production standpoint (other aspects are there).

So it's getting over that last hurtle that remains the task at hand. But it's much harder to consider clearing that third hurdle unless the first two hurdles are cleared.

Yup, and if you KNOW HOW to watch games - the first and the second become the same or largely overlapping. To that end you need to see if the prospect advanced the play to put it in better position - or at least not worse - with a pass, a shot, taking a body or even being / getting to the right spot on the ice. "Hard" stats are depended on a lot of factors that are often outside of a said prospect's control.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Another coach bites the dust.

waiting Gorton... waiting....

took a 12 game losing streak and one of the worst teams we've ever seen for Kruger to finally get the axe. Rangers will keep hovering a bit below .500, don't think he's getting canned during the season, if at all

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

What a ridiculous post. Zibanejad has been coming around, plays different role and even in his current state is better than Kakko and Lafreniere. Buchnevich? I don’t even know how you would chose him and Zibanejad to try to make a case for these prospects. What a stretch.

It hasn’t worked. I don’t care about last year, it is irrelevant to their current situation.

What is Zibanejad’s “different role”? he’s playing the same exact role he played on the PP last year. The difference is he’s shanked everything this season as opposed to scoring on almost every shot he’s put on net.

Again, trying anything else would be better. The PP sucks with virtually the exact same units that have been run out there for half of the season now. How much more do you need to see before realizing that a change is probably for the best? Quinn made changes to the PP last year (before it went into God mode) after it went stale for a few weeks in December, so it’s not like the incapable of making changes.

I swear Quinn could straight up murder someone at center ice and you’d find a way to pin the blame on the victim.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

took a 12 game losing streak and one of the worst teams we've ever seen for Kruger to finally get the axe. Rangers will keep hovering a bit below .500, don't think he's getting canned during the season, if at all

Here’s to losing 12 straight!

.... half kidding, but it’s a sad state of affairs when the Buffalo Sabres are more serious about their coaching staff than the rangers are.

Reminder to the Quinntuplets: that same sabres team that has lost 12 straight handed the Rangers collective asses to them in one of those losses, Shesty won that game for them.

 

[Edge]

I swear Quinn could straight up murder someone at center ice and you’d find a way to pin the blame on the victim.

The funny thing is that many of the people “defending” Quinn aren’t even huge fans. I think they feel criticism is warranted and have plenty of their own.

But the conversations become so over the top that there becomes this battle to almost steer it back into a realm grounded in reality rather than having it feel like a WWF promo class.

The result is that there are topics that make people look like they’re bigger fans of something than they are, when in reality they just aren’t as far to one side of an issue as some of the more vocal members are.

That’s not necessarily unique to DQ. It happens with players all the time as well. The more certain ideas are pushed, the easier it becomes to exaggerate and stretch some of those points, the more likely the resistance is going to be.

 

[duhmetreE]

The potential argument here is that Kakko’s results are more or less in line with his peers from recent drafts. So it begs the question, is it a reflection of the player or is it part of a larger trend?

If it’s the latter, we may be in a bit of a transition period that explains a larger observation that extends beyond Rangersland.

It’s not necessarily the only factor to consider. But there might be a few more shades of gray than we are taking into consideration.

Lets say I agree... he is still well below that trend line, so I'm not understanding how it's really applicable. I get what you're trying to say but I just dont think its true. Svech and Dahlin would be a part of the conversation.

It will always come back to usage. What is he being asked to do? I think he's excelled in that area but it's lead to 4pts and minimal scoring chances. THAT is my issue and that issue is not necessarily with the player.

 

[duhmetreE]

Kakko has looked dangerous everytime he gets on the ice. For a young player thats all I need. The results will come for a guy with his pedigree.

You can't be dangerous if you're always on the perimeter. He's excelled on the perimeter but that's not how you will score. Why is he on the perimeter?