Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[GoAwayPanarin]

The funny thing is that many of the people “defending” Quinn aren’t even huge fans. I think they feel criticism is warranted and have plenty of their own.

But the conversations become so over the top that there becomes this battle to almost steer it back into a realm grounded in reality rather than having it feel like a WWF promo class.

The result is that there are topics that make people look like they’re bigger fans of something than they are, when in reality they just aren’t as far to one side of an issue as some of the more vocal members are.

That’s not necessarily unique to DQ. It happens with players all the time as well. The more certain people protest, the easier it becomes to exaggerate and stretch some of those points, the more likely the resistance is going to be.

have you read true blue and kovazub’s responses in here?

no disrespect to the two of them, but they 100000% fall into the bucket of absolving Quinn for just about everything.

 

[duhmetreE]

have you read true blue and kovazub’s responses in here?

no disrespect to the two of them, but they 100000% fall into the bucket of absolving Quinn for just about everything.

It becomes a semantics game.

Grievances have been well established and portrayed, with this coaching staff. Nothing has been refuted; any counterpoints brought up? Nope, it degrades into snarky trolling and dismissive mocking. It's weird because it's as if they are taking it personal, approaching Webster levels. How bad is it? a lot of people put me on ignore

 

[Edge]

Lets say I agree... he is still well below that trend line, so I'm not understanding how it's really applicable. I get what you're trying to say but I just dont think its true. Svech and Dahlin would be a part of the conversation.

It will always come back to usage. What is he being asked to do? I think he's excelled in that area but it's lead to 4pts and minimal scoring chances. THAT is my issue and that issue is not necessarily with the player.

I just pulled a ton of data on forwards that shows he’s right there with his peers, with Svechnikov more or less being an outlier for all of them, and how even those who had better starts three years ago have since slid back toward to mid-range with time.

His ES numbers are on the lower end of the spectrum, along with his draft classmate. Primarily because of assists. Kotkaniemi was in the AHL his sophomore season. All of its there.

 

[kovazub94]

It hasn’t worked. I don’t care about last year, it is irrelevant to their current situation.

What is Zibanejad’s “different role”? he’s playing the same exact role he played on the PP last year. The difference is he’s shanked everything this season as opposed to scoring on almost every shot he’s put on net.

Again, trying anything else would be better. The PP sucks with virtually the exact same units that have been run out there for half of the season now. How much more do you need to see before realizing that a change is probably for the best? Quinn made changes to the PP last year (before it went into God mode) after it went stale for a few weeks in December, so it’s not like the incapable of making changes.

I swear Quinn could straight up murder someone at center ice and you’d find a way to pin the blame on the victim.

Because what Quinn haters proposing won't produce anything better and then they will complain and blame Quinn for making the moves they are asking for. Making changes for the sake of making changes? Neither Lafreniere nor Kakko nor Chytil have shown anything to warrant promotion to PP1 while the first group still generates chances and controls puck with regularity. So I can see how Quinn is betting on PP1 eventually coming through rather than putting there players that haven't been able even to generate chances (and I'd make the same bet)

 

[Edge]

have you read true blue and kovazub’s responses in here?

no disrespect to the two of them, but they 100000% fall into the bucket of absolving Quinn for just about everything.

I have, but I also see it being reactionary to a group of 4 or 5 people who particularly vocal on this subject.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. But at some point when the song only has one note, the pushback is gonna come.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Because what Quinn haters proposing won't produce anything better and then they will complain and blame Quinn for making the moves they are asking for. Making changes for the sake of making changes? Neither Lafreniere nor Kakko nor Chytil have shown anything to warrant promotion to PP1 while the first group still generates chances and controls puck with regularity. So I can see how Quinn is betting on PP1 eventually coming through rather than putting there players that haven't been able even to generate chances (and I'd make the same bet)

At the end of the day they are the 27th ranked PP in the league.

And it is pretty hard to "show anything to warrant promotion" when you get 30 sec of PP time per opportunity and your shift starts with the puck behind your own net.

No idea why continuing to force one-timers to Zibanejad that get shanked / missed high is some slam dunk obvious answer here that they have to continue pushing, I really do not.

 

[Edge]

It becomes a semantics game.

Grievances have been well established and portrayed, with this coaching staff. Nothing has been refuted; any counterpoints brought up? Nope, it degrades into snarky trolling and dismissive mocking. It's weird because it's as if they are taking it personal, approaching Webster levels. How bad is it? a lot of people put me on ignore

People have provided responses. You don’t agree with them. But not agreeing with something doesn’t mean it wasn’t addressed - repeatedly.

The truth is people get tired of a topic, they know it’s going to be one of five or six people who are posting the same thing that they’ve already responded to. On both sides.

One of the big challenges we have on a message board is people ignore counterpoints and then assume that they were never made. This is true for both sides it’s not unique to one side of this topic. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read through a conversation where people are talking past each other and actually answering the questions that the other side is asking but it’s not the answer that the other side wants to hear.

 

[duhmetreE]

I just pulled a ton of data on forwards that shows he’s right there with his peers, with Svechnikov more or less being an outlier for all of them, and how even those who had better starts three years ago have since slid back toward to mid-range with time.

His ES numbers are on the lower end of the spectrum, along with his draft classmate. Primarily because of assists. Kotkaniemi was in the AHL his sophomore season. All of its there.

but where did Kotkaniemi come from? Were they similar prospects? Maybe I'm out of touch but Hughes and Kakko make sense. Svech and Kakko make sense. I dont think Kotkaniemi is a comparable, as Kakko is/was a tier above.

Kakko is well below that trend line in the d+2 season with comparables. why? People keep saying the points will come, I dont see it with how his game has predominantly on the perimeter. I do not see him get scoring chances. Maybe I haven't communicated it well but my issue is not with Kakko, it's with what he and the team are being asked to do on offense.

 

[True Blue]

Maybe Quinn isn’t the problem. But we can’t know until we try something else.

With that logic, no coach is going to last an entire year.

And now we have to be extremely worried about our top picks.

No, YOU have to be extremely worried.

Deep down I don’t think the players have faith in the coaching staff for the offense.

ZERO POINT ZERO of ANYTHING that that resembles evidence of this.

I don’t see confidence from Laf and Kakko.

What does this even mean? What does confidence look like? I see two kids that at no time looked as if the game was too fast for them. Is that confidence?

At some point we have to be ready to make a go for the Cup.

This team will not be Cup ready for another 2-3 years.

We don’t look remotely close to that, and I don’t think Quinn is helping us on our long term jouney.

That is because they are not. And at no point did anyone believe that they were.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

but where did Kotkaniemi come from? Were they similar prospects? Maybe I'm out of touch but Hughes and Kakko make sense. Svech and Kakko make sense. I dont think Kotkaniemi is a comparable, as Kakko is/was a tier above.

Kakko is well below that trend line in the d+2 season with comparables. why? People keep saying the points will come, I dont see it with how his game has predominantly on the perimeter. I do not see him get scoring chances. Maybe I haven't communicated it well but my issue is not with Kakko, it's with what he and the team are being asked to do on offense.

They're being asked to score goals and not be defensively negligent in the process. Same as every forward on every team in the league.

 

[True Blue]

I swear Quinn could straight up murder someone at center ice and you’d find a way to pin the blame on the victim.

LIkewise can be said in that people have now decided that the Zodiac killer is really behind the Rangers bench.

 

[Edge]

but where did Kotkaniemi come from? Were they similar prospects? Maybe I'm out of touch but Hughes and Kakko make sense. Svech and Kakko make sense. I dont think Kotkaniemi is a comparable, as Kakko is/was a tier above.

Kakko is well below that trend line in the d+2 season with comparables. why? People keep saying the points will come, I dont see it with how his game has predominantly on the perimeter. I do not see him get scoring chances. Maybe I haven't communicated it well but my issue is not with Kakko, it's with what he and the team are being asked to do on offense.

I fully understand you don't see it. Others do, and that's on top of the underlying numbers.

And it's not just posters on here, the numbers are used outside of these boards and point to the same thing.

On the one hand, Kakko's production is on the lower end of his peers. On the other hand, his overall game is rated stronger. Would it be great to have the production as well? Absolutely. But I don't think that means the other stuff is just useless information either.

Kakko is playing better than he did last season, but he's also not getting the powerplay time that provided him with a boost last season. What do the numbers look like this year with his improved overall play? Are we looking at 4 goals and 8 assists in 20 games if that's happening?

I mean these are all factors to consider --- and factors that we take for granted when looking at players on other teams.

If I were to say, oh well Stutzle is netting 1/3 of his production on the special teams, there's this push to count that on his behalf. If I were to say, oh well Kakko's production got a big boost from the special teams last year, there's a push to view that in a more negative light.

But the reality is that those are some of the nuances that play into production. If Kakko and Lafreniere are on the special teams, what does it do to the numbers? Is Laf right up there with Stutzle's stat line? If Kakko's powerplay performance last year carries over and gets a slight boost from his better player, is he on more of 16 goal 40 point pace?

 

[bl02]

LIkewise can be said in that people have now decided that the Zodiac killer is really behind the Rangers bench.

The Zodiac was highly intelligent and had the ability to outsmart his opponents.

 

[bl02]

You can't be dangerous if you're always on the perimeter. He's excelled on the perimeter but that's not how you will score. Why is he on the perimeter?

Yeah he's great along the boards even defensively but dangerous in the o zone? I'm sorry I haven't seen that. It seems like most of the great puck possession he does ends up along the half walls below the dots. Hard to score from there unless you are a great passer like Gretzky.

 

[kovazub94]

At the end of the day they are the 27th ranked PP in the league.

And it is pretty hard to "show anything to warrant promotion" when you get 30 sec of PP time per opportunity and your shift starts with the puck behind your own net.

No idea why continuing to force one-timers to Zibanejad that get shanked / missed high is some slam dunk obvious answer here that they have to continue pushing, I really do not.

I might seem more patient than most but with Panarin returning and no alternative options as PP1 replacement standing-out I'd give it a couple of more weeks.
Think about Kreider's missed opportunity - he scores, PP gets a boost and the team - a much needed win. The difference is an inch.

 

[duhmetreE]

People have provided responses. You don’t agree with them. But not agreeing with something doesn’t mean it wasn’t addressed - repeatedly.

The truth is people get tired of it, they know it’s going to be one of five or six people who are posting the same thing that they’ve already responded to. On both sides.

One of the big challenges we have on a message board is people ignore counterpoints and then assume that they were never made. This is true for both sides it’s not unique to one side of this topic. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read through a conversation where people are talking past each other and actually answering the questions that the other side is asking but it’s not the answer that the other side wants to hear.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. The issue I see is ,that a lot of the 'counterpoints' have nothing to do with the original argument and veer into side tangents. I get it, it's a message board with many different minds.. to add to it, as it is in our beautiful world, everything has turned to black and white, it's become tribal. You're on this side or you're against us. It becomes awkwardly personal for some. I just want to argue/debate the points for the hockey team we're all passionate about. I give my perspective.

I'm sure it is getting annoying because it's infuriating watching it and talking about the same exact issues.

I'll bring up my own personal issues again.
I do not like David Quinns o-zone perimeter gameplan.
Limited space and time created; middle of the ice not utilized
I disliked our PP setup from game 1, personnel has been a recent issue.
I would like some of our kids to get more PP time.
Our transition, or lack there of, hurts skill players.
We do not play like a team that practices

I do not think I've missed any counterpoints to these. Fox, too young, covid, bad goalies and unlucky is not valid counterpoints imo.

 

[bl02]

I might seem more patient than most but with Panarin returning and no alternative options as PP1 replacement standing-out I'd give it a couple of more weeks.
Think about Kreider's missed opportunity - he scores, PP gets a boost and the team - a much needed win. The difference is an inch.

The 3 on 1 or 3 on 0 right in front of Hart? Not your typical pp opportunity/goal chance.
Ok I hope you're right with Panarin coming back. Let's see what happens over the next few weeks.
I just see it as a pretty stagnant pp right now.
Hope we are in it right until the end of the season but if we aren't hopefully we get to see Kakko or Laf with some meaningful pp minutes to show what they can do with some open space and time.

 

[kovazub94]

have you read true blue and kovazub’s responses in here?

no disrespect to the two of them, but they 100000% fall into the bucket of absolving Quinn for just about everything.

Trust me when I tell you I'm pretty indifferent to Quinn as the Rangers head coach and won't cry foul if he's relieved. What gives me agita is all the nonsense thrown against Quinn. I kinda wish that Staal was still on the team and dragged down whatever pair he was on, so you could at least redirect your attention there.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I might seem more patient than most but with Panarin returning and no alternative options as PP1 replacement standing-out I'd give it a couple of more weeks.
Think about Kreider's missed opportunity - he scores, PP gets a boost and the team - a much needed win. The difference is an inch.

Twice. He hit the post at the end of regulation.

 

[haveandare]

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen any thread swing from being so uninteresting and repetitive to suddenly being full of really interesting and productive back and forth like this. Honestly, just well done by a bunch of people bringing this back to a place that’s worthwhile

 

[kovazub94]

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen any thread swing from being so uninteresting and repetitive to suddenly being full of really interesting and productive back and forth like this. Honestly, just well done by a bunch of people bringing this back to a place that’s worthwhile

Maybe most of Quinn's haters are still asleep or your ignore option is working...

 

[kovazub94]

Twice. He hit the post at the end of regulation.

Crossbar?

 

[True Blue]

have you read true blue and kovazub’s responses in here?

no disrespect to the two of them, but they 100000% fall into the bucket of absolving Quinn for just about everything.

Stating that there are things that can be blamed falls a tad short of "absolving Quinn for just about everything", don't you think? Or are you just upset that I am not trying to pin the Kennedy assassination on him?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Crossbar?

Ah, yes.

 

[Edge]

I do not think I've missed any counterpoints to these. Fox, too young, covid, bad goalies and unlucky is not valid counterpoints imo.

But here's the thing, just because you don't like some of the counterpoints doesn't mean they aren't there.

Just like my belief that the kids aren't going to get powerplay time over Panarin, Kreider, Zibanejad, Buch and even Strome doesn't invalidate your counterpoint. I would like to see that on a personal level, but I know that's not likely right now.

I like the growth I'm visually seeing from certain guys, and the underlying data many are producing. I like what I'm seeing from Chytil. I like significantly more of what I'm seeing form Kakko and Laf than I dislike. Etc. etc.

Unfortunately, that's what a debate comes down to. We're often of the opinion on a topic because we agree with some points and don't agree with the counterpoints.

I mean, I can certainly re-state the things I don't like with Quinn. Because I have my own list. I just don't know if I agree with percentage of the blame he's been assigned.

It's one of those same church, different pew type situations.