Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[GoAwayPanarin]

Trust me when I tell you I'm pretty indifferent to Quinn as the Rangers head coach and won't cry foul if he's relieved. What gives me agita is all the nonsense thrown against Quinn. I kinda wish that Staal was still on the team and dragged down whatever pair he was on, so you could at least redirect your attention there.

Everything you've posted in this thread says otherwise. The only nonsense in this this thread is the endless excuse train whistling done by you and the rest of the Quinn apologists.

Here is the thing, most of the Anti Quinn crowd has straight up said multiple times that not everything wrong with this team is HIS fault. He can't control Zibanejad basically turning into a slightly better Brett Howden, Georgiev giving up unscreened goals from 50 feet out or DeAngelo going DeAngelo, but what he can control is how much ice time he gives Zibanejad and when he's deployed, how much Georgiev plays (he's been a soft serve machine this entire season, so no the fact that Shesterkin is hurt right now is NOT a valid excuse for anything other than the last 6 games) or not needlessly benching DeAngelo at the beginning of the season (whether or not things would have exploded eventually here? I'd probably lean towards yes, but this was a dumb decision that threw fuel onto an already burning bridge.)

Why is it that you, and others, have ignored all of the things that he HAS done wrong (which this year, has been A LOT?) Weren't you the one of the ones who was hollering about the last game really being all about Gauthier's penalties and KAM making a half dozen mistakes while ignoring the uninspired start (which saw them go down 2-0, and no these type of starts are not isolated) and refusal to do anything different with the PP?

It's intellectual dishonesty at its very best.

Let me ask you this, are you happy with the way this team has performed this year? Because despite all the shit that has happened that he can't control, the results have been worse than they should be.

@Pawnee Rangers what is Quinn's system? I don't see one and every time I've asked someone who claims that there is one I've gotten response that more or less equate to "I don't know, but trust me its there!"

So enlighten us.

 

[Kravtsov420]

I found the Quinnettes sub. Soon your leader will be at his demise by his own doing, I will be back to laugh when the job is complete. Hopefully everyone can get a job doing balloon animals at his BU circus after this.

 

[TheDirtyH]

He's not. He was signed to be the #2 defenseman he always was. Look around the league at top pairing d-men and that is what was market rate.

By AAV or Cap Hit % Trouba's contract was 10th highest and 14th highest, respectively, when signed. Duncan Keith signed for 9.8% of the Hawks cap at 26. Trouba signed with us at the same percentage at 25. It's a 1D contract. It shouldn't have been. But it is.

There has been absolutely nothing to indicate that the team is in it to win as soon as possible and be a win now team (trade for Eichel and that changes, however). The players that are untouchable should b entering their prime when the team firmly opens its window. That is why they are untouchable.

Not win a championship now, but win as much as possible now. No indications? We just signed our 29 y/o LW to a 6.5X7 contract with a full NMC for the first four seasons. That was about six months after signing the largest UFA deal in history and signing Trouba to the aforementioned 1D contract.

My problem isn't being so aggressive to win, it's just that it's clearly not for the sake of 'winning now' but it's also continuing to invest our future into older/expensive players.

They should be entering their prime (maybe). But even then, if all goes well you have two or three really critical pieces (not to mention Fox) who are 'peaking' and need raises. Meanwhile you've got a ton of money tied up in players on the downswing: ie. the whole point.

Resigning Mika was tricky because of his injury history.

Yes. And because of his age.

While patience is being preached, that is not the same thing as avoiding the desire to make the playoffs. That is why Chytil was playing where he was. It is also about earning the right. Now his play has showed that he is taking steps forward. That was an unknown in the first few games of the seaon.

Is it about earning the ice? Or is it about hoping to god that your best players find their game and start winning games for you again? If we don't care about Strome long term, why do we need to wait more than 4 bad games by him while Chytil plays 4 great games to give Chytil--who we presumably expect to be a big part of our future--a look as 1 or 2C?

And come on. Kakko vs Howden for power play time? Really?

Yes. Agreed. It was ridiculous to watch happening live.

Would it be really bad if the team turned out like Detroit and had its best players be two way players? I see that as only a win.

No. It would be great.

And not expecting rookies to be super stars or even top liners out of the gate seems to be the prudent and realistic thing to expect.

Not expecting superstars out of the gate =/= Expecting the historically bad results out of the gate.

Confused about having a 26 year old top line, 60ish point wing? What is so confusing?

CAP SPACE. CAP SPACE. Seriously?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Everything you've posted in this thread says otherwise. The only nonsense in this this thread is the endless excuse train whistling done by you and the rest of the Quinn apologists.

Here is the thing, most of the Anti Quinn crowd has straight up said multiple times that not everything wrong with this team is HIS fault. He can't control Zibanejad basically turning into a slightly better Brett Howden, Georgiev giving up unscreened goals from 50 feet out or DeAngelo going DeAngelo, but what he can control is how much ice time he gives Zibanejad and when he's deployed, how much Georgiev plays (he's been a soft serve machine this entire season, so no the fact that Shesterkin is hurt right now is NOT a valid excuse for anything other than the last 6 games) or not needlessly benching DeAngelo at the beginning of the season (whether or not things would have exploded eventually here? I'd probably lean towards yes, but this was a dumb decision that threw fuel onto an already burning bridge.)

Why is it that you, and others, have ignored all of the things that he HAS done wrong (which this year, has been A LOT?) Weren't you the one of the ones who was hollering about the last game really being all about Gauthier's penalties and KAM making a half dozen mistakes while ignoring the uninspired start (which saw them go down 2-0, and no these type of starts are not isolated) and refusal to do anything different with the PP?

It's intellectual dishonesty at its very best.

Let me ask you this, are you happy with the way this team has performed this year? Because despite all the shit that has happened that he can't control, the results have been worse than they should be.

@Pawnee Rangers what is Quinn's system? I don't see one and every time I've asked someone who claims that there is one I've gotten response that more or less equate to "I don't know, but trust me its there!"

So enlighten us.

I think @TheDirtyH did a brilliant job explaining it on the previous page. You should check it out.

 

[RGY]

As Mark Giordano said about Calgary around a month ago before the Coaching change, the team had NO IDENTITY. Straight from the Captain’s mouth. NO IDENTITY. No consistency from game to game. No standard. No clear direction.

This is the same problem here. Not having an identity starts and ends with the Coach and his staff.

Fire this clown coach.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think @TheDirtyH did a brilliant job explaining it on the previous page. You should check it out.

I saw his post, it was great, but he didn't really say anything that supports that they have a system.

All he really did is illustrate that there is a massive disconnect between what Quinn says he wants to do and the way that the team actually performs. So is it that he's blowing smoke or that the guys aren't listening?

I know that point #5 may sound super positive, but he really hit the nail on the head with some of the issues that is hurting this team on multiple fronts. When they do actually get through the NZ with possession, they rarely have the numbers to really do anything with it and if the NZ is taken away from them, they are legit terrible at dumping the puck in and getting it back. The latter is really a roster construction thing more so than a coaching issue but the former, if anything, really signifies the lack of anything that looks like a game plan.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I'm OK with Trouba, and have spent a bunch time the past two seasons defending him, but look at his contract and tell me he wasn't signed to be a 1D. Whether that's on Trouba for not meeting realistic expectations or on management for failing to properly evaluate the player and his value, it's a 1D contract. And it's really not a good thing in the long-term to have so much cap space tied up in a players who aren't worth that money.

And this is why I get exhausted.

Because, yes, I look at that contract, and in fact, that's precisely what I'll tell you: he was signed to be a top-tier 2D, not a 1D.

You're looking at it relative to the cap as it is now, and as it projects to be for the next two years, failing to judge it in the context of when it was signed. At the time it was signed, the cap had risen by $2.0-4.5MM each year, every year since the last CBA had been signed, and was projected to get a big boost from the new TV deal on the horizon (which we've just seen). No one at the time could have predicted the pandemic or its impact. And so, $8MM x 7, buying out one year of RFA plus all his prime playing years, was absolutely market for a 25-y-o 2D.

Look at the comparable contracts signed immediately before and after:

29-y-o Karlsson, hampered by injuries, $11.5MM x 8;
29-y-o Myers, only a couple of years from being a castoff, $6MM x 5;
25-y-o Morrissey $6.25MM x 8;
22 y-o Provorov, giving up 3 or 4 more RFA years, $6.75MM x 8.
30 y-o Spurgeon, 7.575MM x 7;
23-y-o Chabot, giving up 2 or 3 more RFA years, $8MM x 8.
28-y-o Faulk, $6.5MM x 7;
30 y-o Josi, $9.059MM x 8.

(That took me 20 minutes to write. Again, you see why I don't bother much anymore.)

 

[kovazub94]

Everything you've posted in this thread says otherwise. The only nonsense in this this thread is the endless excuse train whistling done by you and the rest of the Quinn apologists.

Here is the thing, most of the Anti Quinn crowd has straight up said multiple times that not everything wrong with this team is HIS fault. He can't control Zibanejad basically turning into a slightly better Brett Howden, Georgiev giving up unscreened goals from 50 feet out or DeAngelo going DeAngelo, but what he can control is how much ice time he gives Zibanejad and when he's deployed, how much Georgiev plays (he's been a soft serve machine this entire season, so no the fact that Shesterkin is hurt right now is NOT a valid excuse for anything other than the last 6 games) or not needlessly benching DeAngelo at the beginning of the season (whether or not things would have exploded eventually here? I'd probably lean towards yes, but this was a dumb decision that threw fuel onto an already burning bridge.)

Why is it that you, and others, have ignored all of the things that he HAS done wrong (which this year, has been A LOT?) Weren't you the one of the ones who was hollering about the last game really being all about Gauthier's penalties and KAM making a half dozen mistakes while ignoring the uninspired start (which saw them go down 2-0, and no these type of starts are not isolated) and refusal to do anything different with the PP?

It's intellectual dishonesty at its very best.

Let me ask you this, are you happy with the way this team has performed this year? Because despite all the shit that has happened that he can't control, the results have been worse than they should be.

@Pawnee Rangers what is Quinn's system? I don't see one and every time I've asked someone who claims that there is one I've gotten response that more or less equate to "I don't know, but trust me its there!"

So enlighten us.

Wow, speaking of intellectual dishonesty and turning things upside down.

1. There absolutely wasn't a consensus among anti-Quinn's crowd re. what is / isn't not his fault. All types of shit accusations have been thrown against him. This has been reiterated a number of times already of why Quinn-neutral posters now have to look like Quinn "apologist". This is how you start a post about intellectual dishonesty?
2. Funny. First you say Quinn can't control ADA and then right away bring back ADA issue as caused by Quinn as a result of the benching. Are you kidding me about intellectual dishonesty?
3. Last night's game? One game sample size where the team actually came back to take a lead (led by a big margin in all / most analytical categories) and could've as well won the game on a couple of Kreider's PP chances? You personally has always gone to advance stats against Staal and now you completely ignore it in the game lost literally on a difference in converting PP chances? Intellectual dishonesty is indeed.
4. And speaking of PP - there's probably universal acknowledgement that it must be fixed and is put on Quinn to fix it ASAP. Just as well universally folks don't like 4RHS / 4LHS system by Quinn. This is intellectual dishonesty that all folks don't acknowledge Quinn's shortcomings.
5. Then there's a question of development. There are plenty of proof over the whole time of Quinn's tenure that both vets improve their performance and prospects develop. ES stats have been provided to show that both Kakko and Laf are not that far off AND that covid significantly impacted / skewed comparisons against pre-covid performances. What do we hear from anti-Quinn's crowd: absolutely zero acknowledgement for the positive development we've seen but unfinished in-flight development from 1OA and 2OA in covid environment are thrown without context. Intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I saw his post, it was great, but he didn't really say anything that supports that they have a system.

All he really did is illustrate that there is a massive disconnect between what Quinn says he wants to do and the way that the team actually performs. So is it that he's blowing smoke or that the guys aren't listening?

I know that point #5 may sound super positive, but he really hit the nail on the head with some of the issues that is hurting this team on multiple fronts. When they do actually get through the NZ with possession, they rarely have the numbers to really do anything with it and if the NZ is taken away from them, they are legit terrible at dumping the puck in and getting it back. The latter is really a roster construction thing more so than a coaching issue but the former, if anything, really signifies the lack of anything that looks like a game plan.

I'm not gonna keep going in circles. People have described their system and you guys choose to be obtuse. Every team wants to get through the neutral zone clean and with speed. You make it sound like there's coaches out there who've cracked some holy grail. Quinn's 'lack of a system' had them 5th in goals scored last season, they're 22nd this year... I wonder what the difference could be. Is it the system or is it guys pulling no shows? I'll leave it to you to decide.

 

[RGY]

I'm not gonna keep going in circles. People have described their system and you guys choose to be obtuse. Every team wants to get through the neutral zone clean and with speed. You make it sound like there's coaches out there who've cracked some holy grail. Quinn's 'lack of a system' had them 5th in goals scored last season, they're 22nd this year... I wonder what the difference could be. Is it the system or is it guys pulling no shows? I'll leave it to you to decide.

Okay but this is the negligent and ignorant problem.

You just keep saying guys haven’t shown up this year... aka Zibanejad... then why is this coach not making any changes????? Why do we see the same decisions made over and over again? It is the coaches job to make adjustments. There are no changes in philosophy or approach. Its rinse and repeat with an inexperienced college coach.

 

[effen]

All he really did is illustrate that there is a massive disconnect between what Quinn says he wants to do and the way that the team actually performs. So is it that he's blowing smoke or that the guys aren't listening?

They're not listening. It is impossible to believe a guy as good at talking as he is cannot get his point across. For a while that's a roster problem and the solution comes from the room. At this point, it's a Quinn problem, and the solution comes from outside the organization. Hope they don't actually like him on a personal level.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Wow, speaking of intellectual dishonesty and turning things upside down.

1. There absolutely wasn't a consensus among anti-Quinn's crowd re. what is / isn't not his fault. All types of shit accusations have been thrown against him. This has been reiterated a number of times already of why Quinn-neutral posters now have to look like Quinn "apologist". This is how you start a post about intellectual dishonesty?
2. Funny. First you say Quinn can't control ADA and then right away bring back ADA issue as caused by Quinn as a result of the benching. Are you kidding me about intellectual dishonesty?
3. Last night's game? One game sample size where the team actually came back to take a lead (led by a big margin in all / most analytical categories) and could've as well won the game on a couple of Kreider's PP chances? You personally has always gone to advance stats against Staal and now you completely ignore it in the game lost literally on a difference in converting PP chances? Intellectual dishonesty is indeed.
4. And speaking of PP - there's probably universal acknowledgement that it must be fixed and is put on Quinn to fix it ASAP. Just as well universally folks don't like 4RHS / 4LHS system by Quinn. This is intellectual dishonesty that all folks don't acknowledge Quinn's shortcomings.
5. Then there's a question of development. There are plenty of proof over the whole time of Quinn's tenure that both vets improve their performance and prospects develop. ES stats have been provided to show that both Kakko and Laf are not that far off AND that covid significantly impacted / skewed comparisons against pre-covid performances. What do we hear from anti-Quinn's crowd: absolutely zero acknowledgement for the positive development we've seen but unfinished in-flight development from 1OA and 2OA in covid environment are thrown without context. Intellectual dishonesty.

1. It's pretty easy to point out when mistakes are made by a coach. Personally, most of how a coach is perceived has to do with the way the team is playing and how good his roster is (there are exceptions, as much as some don't want to hear it Torts getting the Jackets into the playoffs last year after losing Panarin and Bob was a terrific display of coaching) but when a coach starts making decisions that have a direct negative impact on what the team is doing on the ice? Thats a problem. Quinn's done that a TON this year.

2. No you clearly misunderstood what I said. There was already tension there to begin with and he made it worse by scratching him for a nothing penalty in a game they were losing by 5. It's poor emotional intelligence by a guy who has been lauded for his communication skills. Do you think he would have scratched Howden had he done the same? Reading comprehension is your friend.

3. You fail to get the point here again. If they were able to storm back and take the lead, why did they play like a stack of wet telephone books to start the game for like the 20th time this season? Where was that effort to start the game? The analytics weren't as heavily skewed as you make them out to be and really were only lopsided in one period for the Rangers (the 2nd.) You don't get points for winning a period or digging yourselves out of a hole that you created only to lose the game. Gauthier's penalties and K'Andre's play were definitely factors in them losing this game, as were the team coming out flat again and not being able to score on the PP. The latter 2 are what I'm harping on here because the Quinntuplets don't like to acknowledge these things.

Should we take the counter argument for their wins against Buffalo and the first game against NJ two weeks ago? Because they got out analytic'd in both of those games, against Buffalo (losers of 12 in a row) it was for almost the entire game (really for the last 50 minutes.)

4. Weren't you just complaining about the prospect of taking Zibanejad off of the PP? All most of us are asking for is for them to try something, anything different because their current set up is not working.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I'm thinking Laff is just not really NHL ready. Much like Kakko last year was not.

Before people hate that, Laff is the 2nd youngest NHL player this season, just because he was drafted #1, why does that make him NHL ready?

Kakko last year was the 4th youngest, 2nd youngest of anyone who played more than 8 games, again I'm not sold he was ready.

This thinking is dead wrong. He was beyond NHL ready. He was days away from being drafted in 2019. Everyone who has watched him for years said he was NHL ready.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

They're not listening. It is impossible to believe a guy as good at talking as he is cannot get his point across. For a while that's a roster problem and the solution comes from the room. At this point, it's a Quinn problem, and the solution comes from outside the organization. Hope they don't actually like him on a personal level.

I don't think they're listening either. But like you said, if they aren't listening that just about as bad as not practicing what you preach. But there are ways to get guys to buy in. Torts is a raging asshole who everyone hates, he has no issues getting players to do what he wants them to do.

I'm not saying that bag skating guys is the answer, but benching Mika for 8 minutes against NJ isn't the answer either. Clearly he needs to do something different or the FO need to bring in someone who will.

I've seen enough to come to the conclusion that a new voice is the way.

 

[Off Sides]

This thinking is dead wrong. He was beyond NHL ready. He was days away from being drafted in 2019. Everyone who has watched him for years said he was NHL ready.

Maybe those who said that were wrong?

It's the same thing many people always say about the drafts, this or that player is NHL ready or close to it, and pretty much unless they are elite level special prospects it turns out wrong.

 

[Kravtsov420]

There is legitimately no plan in the offensive zone. Once the forwards cross the blue lines they run around with their heads cut off. They throw the puck back and forth to each side down low until they give it to the defensemen for a wristlet to go wide.

 

[True Blue]

By AAV or Cap Hit % Trouba's contract was 10th highest and 14th highest, respectively, when signed. Duncan Keith signed for 9.8% of the Hawks cap at 26. Trouba signed with us at the same percentage at 25. It's a 1D contract. It shouldn't have been. But it is.

Market rate of where top pairing defensemen were going.

Not win a championship now, but win as much as possible now. No indications? We just signed our 29 y/o LW to a 6.5X7 contract with a full NMC for the first four seasons. That was about six months after signing the largest UFA deal in history and signing Trouba to the aforementioned 1D contract.

My problem isn't being so aggressive to win, it's just that it's clearly not for the sake of 'winning now' but it's also continuing to invest our future into older/expensive players.

They should be entering their prime (maybe). But even then, if all goes well you have two or three really critical pieces (not to mention Fox) who are 'peaking' and need raises. Meanwhile you've got a ton of money tied up in players on the downswing: ie. the whole point.

There was never any pretense that the team is all about winning as much as possible right now. There still isn't.

Kreider was resigned to be one of the leaders of the team as it goes through a rebuild. He is THE leader of this team. Not one of them. His contract is below market rate for a player of his caliber. You cannot ice a team with all rookies on it. You need vets to shield the players. You need the players of the future. You also need the players who help get them there.

The money to sign the future core will be made when all of the dead contract space comes off and then further when more moves are made in the near to medium term future.

Yes. And because of his age.

Fine. But the lion's share was durability.

Is it about earning the ice? Or is it about hoping to god that your best players find their game and start winning games for you again? If we don't care about Strome long term, why do we need to wait more than 4 bad games by him while Chytil plays 4 great games to give Chytil--who we presumably expect to be a big part of our future--a look as 1 or 2C?

It is exactly about earning it and simply not handing it over. Chytil showed ZERO last year that would believe that a) he earned the shot or b) he was remotely ready for such a shot.

Yes. Agreed. It was ridiculous to watch happening live.

How much time is Kakko averaging on PP vs Howden?

No. It would be great.

Then there is nothing wrong about the approach. Patrick Laine had great counting stats as a rookie. A team full of Laine's does not sniff the playoffs as the next time he even tries to play a two way game will be the first time.

Not expecting superstars out of the gate =/= Expecting the historically bad results out of the gate.

Going to presume you mean just Kakko, as using the same exact measuring stick for Lafreniere as you do for every one else seems assinine as NONE of them have EVER had to not train or skate or the previous 10 months.

Do I want Kakko go have more points? Sure. But if you are seeing the kid play and not have his game grow by leaps and bounds, then you are watching a different team.

CAP SPACE. CAP SPACE. Seriously?

Multiple ways to create it. Seriously.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Okay but this is the negligent and ignorant problem.

You just keep saying guys haven’t shown up this year... aka Zibanejad... then why is this coach not making any changes????? Why do we see the same decisions made over and over again? It is the coaches job to make adjustments. There are no changes in philosophy or approach. Its rinse and repeat with an inexperienced college coach.

They aren't going to change their defensive coverage mid-season, especially a new one. Are they sacrificing some offense for team defense? Maybe? But isn't this year the perfect time to do it? Let them learn it now so it becomes second nature next year. But honestly, what do you want him to do? I know you're pissed because ADA is gonzo, but what other buttons is he supposed to push? Should he scratch Zib? He's played Kakko and Laff all over the lineup trying to get them going. Do you really think telling them to just go out there and don't worry about the d-zone is a great way to develop a young player? He's given Zib a bunch of different wingers to get him going. He's had a manage a lineup with guys in and out because of Covid and Panarin hiding out in Bulgaria for two weeks. On most nights they have at least 2 AHL defenders in the lineup.

Maybe he should change the PP up, that's one area where I feel you guys are right, they need to do something there. Sure, he can tell them to simplify their games use a 1-2 forecheck, dump and chase, but according to you guys they can't even do that. My opinion, this is on the players. Maybe summon the ghost of Herb Brooks, see if he can fire them up?

 

[True Blue]

I found the Quinnettes sub. Soon your leader will be at his demise by his own doing, I will be back to laugh when the job is complete. Hopefully everyone can get a job doing balloon animals at his BU circus after this.

How did your tryouts go? Make the cut?

 

[CLW]

I'm still of the belief that Quinn doesn't coach any particular offensive system.

There is a neutral zone transition plan, and its worked fairly well (eye test). But I don't think there is any such system for what to do in the offensive zone. And I think that is really detrimental to the younger players.

If they don't score off the rush or a very talented one on one play... it just doesn't happen.

I've made this same point several times and this is my problem with Quinn's hockey. Anyone can find the biggest, strongest, fastest players and tell them to go out there and bang the puck in the net. If Quinn conducted music he would be a Big Band leader playing Swing, not a Maestro of the Philharmonic. The point with this strained analogy is that Kakko and Laf stick out like sore thumbs on the ice because they are not Big Band musicians. Chytil, Zib and Buch have adapted their games, Panarin is an outlier who thrives on the open ice, Kreider, Strome, Blackwell etc are like fish in the water, but for all their talent Kakko and Laf look misplaced in this setting.

If Kakko or Laf played on teams like Colorado, Florida or Carolina their numbers would look different.

Having said that, my concern is not so much with the numbers of the prospects, but where they are headed under Quinn. Kakk0's improvement on the defensive side is a result of his off ice training away from Quinn. With Quinn I just don't see what he can teach these kids that will help them realize their full potential as NHL players. It's basically "go out there and show us what you can do", and if that doesn't work, then what?

 

[Kravtsov420]

How did your tryouts go? Make the cut?

I didn’t have the right intentions unfortunately

 

[kovazub94]

1. It's pretty easy to point out when mistakes are made by a coach. Personally, most of how a coach is perceived has to do with the way the team is playing and how good his roster is (there are exceptions, as much as some don't want to hear it Torts getting the Jackets into the playoffs last year after losing Panarin and Bob was a terrific display of coaching) but when a coach starts making decisions that have a direct negative impact on what the team is doing on the ice? Thats a problem. Quinn's done that a TON this year.

2. No you clearly misunderstood what I said. There was already tension there to begin with and he made it worse by scratching him for a nothing penalty in a game they were losing by 5. It's poor emotional intelligence by a guy who has been lauded for his communication skills. Do you think he would have scratched Howden had he done the same? Reading comprehension is your friend.

3. You fail to get the point here again. If they were able to storm back and take the lead, why did they play like a stack of wet telephone books to start the game for like the 20th time this season? Where was that effort to start the game? The analytics weren't as heavily skewed as you make them out to be and really were only lopsided in one period for the Rangers (the 2nd.) You don't get points for winning a period or digging yourselves out of a hole that you created only to lose the game. Gauthier's penalties and K'Andre's play were definitely factors in them losing this game, as were the team coming out flat again and not being able to score on the PP. The latter 2 are what I'm harping on here because the Quinntuplets don't like to acknowledge these things.

Should we take the counter argument for their wins against Buffalo and the first game against NJ two weeks ago? Because they got out analytic'd in both of those games, against Buffalo (losers of 12 in a row) it was for almost the entire game (really for the last 50 minutes.)

4. Weren't you just complaining about the prospect of taking Zibanejad off of the PP? All most of us are asking for is for them to try something, anything different because their current set up is not working.

2. (cause I'm tired of repeating myself on other points) Has anyone on the team slammed penalty door since in any situation?

4. I have an opinion which is different from Quinn's - I'm not a proponent of 4 RHS / LHS system. However, this doesn't mean I would actually be against having Strome on PP1 vs. Buchnevich for example. I can see that Strome brings abilities like his chemistry with Panarin, his vision and ability to execute a pass or a snipe. He just happened to be RHS but Quinn is making a generalization out of it that I disagree. Zibanejad - I think he's showing signs of recovery so I'm willing to prolong keeping him on PP1. I'm not forcing these points on anyone and I can see alternative scenarios but not those involving moving current Kakko or Laf to PP1 because they are not doing anything effected on PP2. Has nothing to do with support for Quinn. Makes sense?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm not gonna keep going in circles. People have described their system and you guys choose to be obtuse. Every team wants to get through the neutral zone clean and with speed. You make it sound like there's coaches out there who've cracked some holy grail. Quinn's 'lack of a system' had them 5th in goals scored last season, they're 22nd this year... I wonder what the difference could be. Is it the system or is it guys pulling no shows? I'll leave it to you to decide.

No one has described their system which is why I'm asking again. You did exactly what I said other people have done in the past by basically saying "THERES A SYSTEM! I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS BUT IT EXISTS!"

Again, I ask of you, what is their system? And no there is no holy grail, but this team isn't attacking with speed and numbers, they aren't trying to turn the NZ into a quagmire (f***ing Pierre), they aren't trying to wear down teams along the walls and grind out goals, they aren't playing the 6 goalie system, etc. I don't see anything that they're actively trying to do. This isn't really any different than last year either.

Also the PP had alot to do with their GF being what it was last year. The no shows haven't helped this year at all (mostly Zibanejad), but the Rangers were literally "go do the hockey and score on the PP" last year too.

I think the scary thing is just how much of their success in the 2nd half of last year was tied to Zibanejad. They certainly improved as a group as well, but it wasn't nearly as much as we thought but if there is a silver lining, it as brought to light issues that would have otherwise probably gone ignored.

 

[duhmetreE]

I think most people are in agreement about the PP time. And who you quoted has explicitly said he's very frustrated by it this year.

1) You've assumed from the start there is a gameplan deliberately put in place to stay to the perimeter, despite Quinn repeating ad nauseum over the last three seasons his hopes for players to get to the net, 'that's how goals in this league are scored,' etc. So, I do disagree that this is a gameplan or strategy issue. It's clearly one of Quinn's priorities for his forwards. What to respond to then, is something other than your concern, and it's to ask whether or not the Rangers actually execute this priority. Your answer, clearly, is no. Mine would be yes, but in the wrong ways.

2) Watching other teams, I disagree that the Rangers don't create time and space for themselves relative to the league. Our defensemen especially all excel in either being Adam Fox, or mimic his patience as best they can (with varying results on a scale of Lindgren to Smith). Even the concern about a perimeter gameplan would contradict this to my mind. If you're deliberately trying to stay to the outside, and by all accounts doing that, then what else would you get yourself than time and space?

3/4) This was responded to. Some people think the personnel deserves more opportunity to turn it around, some are equally frustrated, some think the PP is actually good but just unlucky.

5) Which skill players? Panarin and Strome have excelled. Zibanejad gets most of his chances on the rush. Buchnevich has thrived. We get up the ice with speed and control pretty frequently. We don't get up with numbers as often, and our forechecking is very weak. Is that a transition issue exactly?

6) How could anyone respond to this?

So, it's a player execution issue? Getting to the net has been a problem. Players refusing to go there? Using the middle of the ice or finding soft spots is another player issue? It's not by design? I'm telling you what I see in actuality. We do not know what Quinns ozone gameplan is but it looks like a perimeter possession game. If 4 players are on the perimeter and a player is stationary in front of the net, is the gameplan being executed? The gameplan is being executed, but it has limited reward. some will say we're unlucky because the possession metrics

Then we see two completely different things. Puck movement and puck support is bad compared to other NHL teams. Time and space through the neutral zone or o-zone is limited. I think we're decent at quick counter attacks off of turnovers or broken plays. The team on the rush is a wild card. Prolonged zone time leads to the same possession perimeter game I normally see.

Our PP is a subset off of the 5v5 gameplan. Perimeter. Usually trying to create a lane for 1 player, who has been zibs. Is it unlucky? or is the same person being fed? whose fault is that? I think the PP is being executed as drawn up. I think it could be a lot better, more dynamic and effective with the talent we have.

We counter attack off of turnovers/broken plays well. We're at our best creating turnovers in the neutral zone. Coming out of our zone/set plays/structure is below average-poor. Puck support is to the point where the puck carrier is typically isolated and his only option is bang it up. It seems as it's by design.

Crisp puck movement. Tape 2 tape passes. Trusting where your teammates are going to be. Creating space or finding soft spots instead of puck watching. That's what I meant that it looks like we dont practice.

btw I didn't mean for anyone to reply to everything... that was somewhat rhetorical. But I appreciate it

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Why would they have to?

Because when a coach is "fired" he actually is just relieved of his duties and still under contract