Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[KirkAlbuquerque]

But are we actually coaching the offense out of their game?

I mean the offense wasn’t any different with the other top 3 picks from the last two years in many cases - with the exception of Stutzle’s open skate night.

So is it a Rangers things, or is it an emerging trend in the league? I am kind of curious to see where this all leads.

Rangers are lucky Dach mutilated his wrist at the WJC. Because if he was playing this season he'd be at a PPG centering Kane and Debrincat.

 

[Edge]

Rangers are lucky Dach mutilated his wrist at the WJC. Because if he was playing this season he'd be at a PPG centering Kane and Debrincat.

Im very hesitant to go down the “if this guy was only healthy” it’d be different rabbit hole. Looking at his peers, there’s a very distinct possibility he’d be right in the same range.

Even beyond his draft peers, we see recent example of plateaued production and even assignments to the AHL in year two.

 

[Machinehead]

I’m somewhat guessing here, but my initial reaction would be that the Rangers tend to more or less like the overall games they are seeing from Kakko and Lafreniere and view the points as secondary at this point.

That kind of goes back to my earlier comment that the point totals seem to a hotter topic on here than they are from the team, or even in conversations people with other teams are having.

Now, to your point, at some point they’re gonna have to get these kids into situations where they can benefit from the special teams and certain situations as well.

Does that come for Kakko after a Buch trade on the right side?

Does it come for Laf after a Strome trade?

I honestly don’t know, but “maybe”.

In the meantime, I think we could treat our second unit a little better. It's not even necessarily their ice time, but when they get it. The powerplay is almost always already a corpse by the time they get out there.

I feel like you could count the times our 2PP set up and had a real powerplay or got a zone start on one hand.

I'm just worried about the mentality of these players moving forward if they continue to not score. Confidence is an important thing. We talk about the bad habits that can come from ignoring defense but developing conservative habits that we probably don't want is also a real risk.

That's why when the GDT had a nuclear meltdown last night over Miller having a bad pinch, my reaction was "whatever he's 21."

I'm much more inclined to have the "whatever, they're young, I don't care" mindset on complete play over offense. The Rangers obviously look at it the opposite way.

We'll see if that works for them but I don't think you can force people to trust the team nor do I think the Rangers have much concrete evidence of success to have earned trust.

At that point, it's probably not worth poop-flinging about. Level of trust is subjective.

 

[Edge]

In the meantime, I think we could treat our second unit a little better. It's not even necessarily their ice time, but when they get it. The powerplay is almost always already a corpse by the team they get out there.

I feel like you could count the times our 2PP set up and had a real powerplay or got a zone start on one hand.

I'm just worried about the mentality of these players moving forward if they continue to not score. Confidence is an important thing. We talk about the bad habits that can come from ignoring defense but developing conservative habits that we probably don't want is also a real risk.

That's why when the GDT had a nuclear meltdown last night over Miller having a bad pinch, my reaction was "whatever he's 21."

I'm much more inclined to have the "whatever, they're young, I don't care" mindset on complete play over offense. The Rangers obviously look at it the opposite way.

We'll see if that works for them but I don't think you can force people to trust the team nor do I think the Rangers have much concrete evidence of success to have earned trust.

At that point, it's probably not worth poop-flinging about. Level of trust is subjective.

And honestly, the power play thing you mentioned is something that drives me ape shit with DQ. It literally makes me wanna pull my hair out - and I’m working on getting some Zibanejad level flow right now!

I can’t disagree with your approach on youth either. There’s a lot of validity to what you’re saying. The other end of the spectrum is an approach similar to the one taken by the Rangers.

I had a a scout from a Western Conference team point to Stutzle the other night and essentially say, “I wonder if the Sens are doing somewhat of a disservice to Stutzle when he has early success and then they try to break him of certain habits. Maybe the don’t need to, but maybe they end up creating a player you find you can’t win with either. Everyone loves a Vanek or Laine until you try to win with them.”

Others would have a very, very different take. But it shows how divided the topic can be.

As for trust, ultimately how this turns out is going to define a lot of things. It’s going to define Gorton’s legacy. Likewise for JD. Likewise for Clark. And probably the entire organization.

Whether it works or fails, or ends up somewhere in the middle, that’s pretty much where we are at.

 

[RGY]

Looking at the last few years, there’s a lot to be said about how much young talent benefits from PP usage. That’s where the stats get a big boost - and potentially the confidence as well.

And that right there is a significant factor for these two young kids trying to translate their offensive talents to the NHL level. Wondering if they are good enough, questioning if they are the real deal, questioning if they belong or was their production at the lower levels is a fluke. They need that confirmation that they can score at the NHL level like they did in Junior levels, that reassurance of normalcy for them.

They dont need to be getting molded into some defensive 3rd line checkers stunting the development of their offensive abilities which is what is most important and why they were drafted where they were.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Why is the second unit such a mess, anyway? Tactically, execution-wise, whatever, it performs about as badly as our backup goalies. Even if it gets a Buch or a Strome (decent vet offensive players - certainly "PP1" guys on a traditional terrible rebuilding team) you see the same results, it's a miracle if they can hold the zone.

 

[Edge]

And that right there is a significant factor for these two young kids trying to translate their offensive talents to the NHL level. Wondering if they are good enough, questioning if they are the real deal, questioning if they belong or was their production at their lower levels is a fluke. They need that confirmation that they can score at the NHL level like they did in Junior levels, that reassurance of normalcy for them.

They dont need to be getting molded into some defensive 3rd line checkers stunting the development of their offensive abilities which is what is most important and why they were drafted where they were.

But is that them feeling that way or is it us projecting it on them?

We hear a lot about how Lafreniere and Kakko seem confident out there. The scoring doesn’t appear to be weighing on them. I don’t know if I’ve chatted with anyone who said, “damn, those kids look lost out there.”

So while I do agree with you, I wonder if we are at that point for them. If anything, I would almost suspect that they look at some of the vets ahead of them and “get” the current circumstances.

In that same vein, what happens when/if Buch is moved or Strome? Does that open things up? What if Mika gets moved and Chytil moves up, how does that change things?

That’s the unknown right now. You’ve got 3 slots on the power play that very well might not be on the roster this time next year.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Why is the second unit such a mess, anyway? Tactically, execution-wise, whatever, it performs about as badly as our backup goalies. Even if it gets a Buch or a Strome (decent vet offensive players - certainly "PP1" guys on a traditional terrible rebuilding team) you see the same results, it's a miracle if they can hold the zone.

I mean look at PP1 which is loaded with all our best and most veteran players, and its doo doo sauce. PP2 doesn't have a chance lol

 

[Machinehead]

And getting back to Quinn, I'll sound like a broken record on this one, I'm more willing to buy into this idea that we have a system, and we're gonna cycle, and be responsible, and backcheck, and the whole spiel if...we did that?

I find the team unaggressive and disorganized most nights and -I hate to say it- lazy some nights.

Quinn really wants to be this Barry Trotz, John Tortorella, more recent Jon Cooper, like "buy into the machine" coach and I just don't think he has the machine.

On one end of the ice, I see it. I love Martin and I love the defensive structure. Offensively? Not enough forecheck, not enough agency, not enough in the prime scoring areas.

As a whole, if we're talking about this "team responsibility" concept? Not seeing it with the bad starts, not seeing it with the bad penalties, not seeing it with the inconsistent effort.

And if we're failing at the whole Tortorella style, I'd rather just score a bunch of f***ing goals.

I think that's why so many posters have turned on Quinn. We're not the fun and exciting AV team but we're also far from the responsible and in-your-face Torts team. We're neither of those.

 

[Profet]

Why is the second unit such a mess, anyway? Tactically, execution-wise, whatever, it performs about as badly as our backup goalies. Even if it gets a Buch or a Strome (decent vet offensive players - certainly "PP1" guys on a traditional terrible rebuilding team) you see the same results, it's a miracle if they can hold the zone.

Because they typically have 25 seconds of time and spend 15 seconds of that breaking in and setting up.

 

[duhmetreE]

When we dive into the numbers, are the kids struggling or are they performing on par with some of their contemporaries in recent years, especially when you adjust for ES usage.

Because the deeper one dives into the numbers, the less of an outlier these kids look like over the last three years or so.

Now that’s not a pardon for DQ, but I think it provides some interesting context.

I don't know how accurate those numbers will be in telling a story. It's being somewhat selective to point out a trend. Especially considering the numbers would be skewed by the players we're talking about.

I think I've made it clear I have no particular issue with Laf or his 'usage' at ES. Yes, he could be better but hes had/created chances.. Still believe he's indirectly affected by our 'system'; and lack of PP usage. Things controlled by Quinn.

The bigger concern is Kakko. It's fair to say he was somewhat close to Svech as a prospect. We saw him play agasint men at the WC and excel. He was 'NHL ready'. We've caught glimpses of the #2 talent, sporadically, but he is not getting/creating any where close to enough scoring chances. He's better than last year but how low are we setting the bar? What's the expectation here? He's been a perimeter player, isnt the teams 'gameplan' being executed?

Production wise, he's no where close to Svech and I'd be doing cartwheels if he was producing like Jack Hughes. Hughes may still be a boy but his talent and skills are undeniable. He's a dangerous and dynamic player... You see it. I have not seen anything close to that level with Kakko. The question is, why? Once again, I take issue with things that are in direct control of the coaching staff. the offensive gameplan/system and PP are glaring issues. Do you believe Kakko is being set up to succeed?

 

[Edge]

I'd be doing cartwheels if he was producing like Jack Hughes. Hughes may still be a boy but his talent and skills are undeniable. He's a dangerous and dynamic player... You see it. I have not seen anything close to that level with Kakko.

This is an interesting topic to look at.

Hughes has 13 goals and 35 points in 86 games.

Kakko has 12 goals and 27 points in 86 games.

So that difference in production is a goal and 8 points.

At even strength Hughes is heavier on the assists, Kakko leads in goals.

I don’t know if either guy is particularly lighting the world on fire, but we do see Hughes getting about 25 percent more ice time this season, special team time and an early season boost when Hisch was out.

I guess I’m not really seeing the huge noteworthy boost in production there. Maybe a few more assists that teammates bury? Buch missing time and Kakko taking his slot like Hughes did with Hisch out?

I mean we saw a damn dangerous player who was one of the Rangers best before the COVID absence. That was one of the consistent observations in the Kakko thread. So there’s definitely something there.

 

[Edge]

I think that's why so many posters have turned on Quinn. We're not the fun and exciting AV team but we're also far from the responsible and in-your-face Torts team. We're neither of those.

I will say I am actually curious as to where people fall on the spectrum. I think there’s a handful of people who really dislike Quinn, and tend to respond and feed off each other. They’re vocal and they’re passionate.

But kind of like politics, I think a lot of people are much closer to the middle with things they like and things they don’t like. But they’re either quieter or less involved on a game to game, day to day basis.

Sometimes you have a scenario where 10 people make 100 posts on a topic whereas 30 people make 50 posts.

I don’t think DQ is beloved. But I’m not sure he is quite as reviled as some might think.

 

[duhmetreE]

This is an interesting topic to look at.

Hughes has 13 goals and 35 points in 86 games.

Kakko has 12 goals and 27 points in 86 games.

So that difference in production is a goal and 8 points.

At even strength Hughes is heavier on the assists, Kakko leads in goals.

I don’t know if either guy is particularly lighting the world on fire, but we do see Hughes getting about 25 percent more ice time this season, special team time and an early season boost when Hisch was out.

I guess I’m not really seeing the huge noteworthy boost in production there. Maybe a few more assists that teammates bury? Buch missing time and Kakko taking his slot like Hughes did with Hisch out?

I mean we saw a damn dangerous player who was one of the Rangers best before the COVID absence. That was one of the consistent observations in the Kakko thread. So there’s definitely something there.

I'm talking about this awesome covid season

25GP 6G 14P 3PPP
20GP 2G 4P 0PPP

Hasn't scored a goal since January 22. ADA was still on the roster. As trivial as it seems, 7 ES points is a world of a difference.

It almost feel like this season is cursed

 

[duhmetreE]

What does David Quinn do good to set him above replacement?

 

[Edge]

I'm talking about this awesome covid season

25GP 6G 14P 3PPP
20GP 2G 4P 0PPP

Hasn't scored a goal since January 22. ADA was still on the roster. As trivial as it seems, 7 ES points is a world of a difference.

It almost feel like this season is cursed

It is an incredibly weird season.

Yes, Kakko hasn’t scored, but that also circles back to one of the original points about how he was still playing well. The thread since that time paint a pretty clear picture of how Kakko’s play was seen in real time. That was the whole catch-22; he was doing everything but actually scoring.

 

[duhmetreE]

It is an incredibly weird season.

Yes, Kakko hasn’t scored, but that also circles back to one of the original points about how he was still playing well. The thread since that time paint a pretty clear picture of how Kakko’s play was seen in real time. That was the whole catch-22; he was doing everything but actually scoring.

I understand we're reaching for the positive... but we didn't draft him #2 to be great at takeaways. It's nice treat but not the main course. I guess this is where expectations differ. If people think it'll come, I agree. It'll come with a different mindset/coach IMO. Hopefully I'm wrong and he tears up the final half of the season and he thanks Quinn for playing an integral part in his development. We all want to watch this team succeed. People want to be optimistic about their sporting teams... I'm still optimistic for the future but we have massively underachieved as a team. You can point to some individual improvements but we're a bad team.

Why is David Quinn a good NHL hockey coach?

 

[LokiDog]

This is an interesting topic to look at.

Hughes has 13 goals and 35 points in 86 games.

Kakko has 12 goals and 27 points in 86 games.

So that difference in production is a goal and 8 points.

At even strength Hughes is heavier on the assists, Kakko leads in goals.

I don’t know if either guy is particularly lighting the world on fire, but we do see Hughes getting about 25 percent more ice time this season, special team time and an early season boost when Hisch was out.

I guess I’m not really seeing the huge noteworthy boost in production there. Maybe a few more assists that teammates bury? Buch missing time and Kakko taking his slot like Hughes did with Hisch out?

I mean we saw a damn dangerous player who was one of the Rangers best before the COVID absence. That was one of the consistent observations in the Kakko thread. So there’s definitely something there.

It’s a bit disingenuous to combine their seasons. Kakko outscored Hughes in their rookie year 23 to 21, in five more games. This year one has taken a clear step forwards and is on pace for 46 points over 82 games. The other is on pace for 16. We can quibble over “how much better Kakko looks” this year and puck luck, special teams usage, etc. but at the end of the day, one is nearly a 50 point pace sophomore and one is beneath a 20 point pace sophomore. Advanced metrics and all the other measuring sticks, at some point, just don’t make up for a 30 point difference in production, unless you’re talking about a 70 point Patrice Bergeron versus a 100 point Taylor Hall, or something like that. Kakko may have some good underlying numbers, but he doesn’t have nearly the type of impact to negate that difference in production at this point in his career.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

There's no real need to ask why. The answer is obvious. Kreider, Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox are fixtures on PP1. That leaves one spot. I don't like Strome there. Buchnevich is a better option than Kakko/Lafreniere. The coach is trying to win games. He plays the better players there. There is always a disconnect between ownership, management, and coaching in these scenarios. Why would the coach play a worse player there which then reduces his chance to win which then increases his chance to get fired?

The first bolded shouldn't be the case anymore. At least not this year. Funny thing is, playing his "better" players on the PP hasn't worked for him at all this year. We aren't a week into the season anymore, we're about half way through the schedule. We're well beyond the point where trying ANYTHING else is a better move than to keep shoving that group down our throats. It hasn't worked, period.

Giant assumption with the 2nd too.

 

[Edge]

It’s a bit disingenuous to combine their seasons. Kakko outscored Hughes in their rookie year 23 to 21, in five more games. This year one has taken a clear step forwards and is on pace for 46 points over 82 games. The other is on pace for 16. We can quibble over “how much better Kakko looks” this year and puck luck, special teams usage, etc. but at the end of the day, one is nearly a 50 point pace sophomore and one is beneath a 20 point pace sophomore. Advanced metrics and all the other measuring sticks, at some point, just don’t make up for a 30 point difference in production, unless you’re talking about a 70 point Patrice Bergeron versus a 100 point Taylor Hall, or something like that. Kakko may have some good underlying numbers, but he doesn’t have nearly the type of impact to negate that difference in production at this point in his career.

In the same vein couldn’t we say it’s disingenuous over-stating the impact of Hughes based on the 3 goals and 4 assists he has since January 26, despite getting getting power play time, not missing action and getting 25 percent more time than Kakko?

That’s a 20 game stretch where Hughes is right back to scoring at a 12 goal/ 28 point pace he was last year - despite close to a 20 percent bump in ice time.

That 50 point pace we are referencing is basically hoisted up by a 5 game stretch to start the season where he netted 3 goals and 7 points - including 2 goals and 3 points in one game against the Rangers. Since then, 2021 Jack Hughes offensive line is as similar to 2020 Jack Hughes as Kakko is to his 2020 counterpart.

 

[duhmetreE]

In the same vein couldn’t we say it’s disingenuous over-stating the impact of Hughes based on the 3 goals and 4 assists he has since January 26, despite getting getting power play time, not missing action and getting 25 percent more time than Kakko?

That’s a 20 game stretch where Hughes is right back to scoring at a 12 goal/ 28 point pace he was last year - despite close to a 20 percent bump in ice time.

That 50 point pace we are referencing is basically hoisted up by a 5 game stretch to start the season where he netted 3 goals and 7 points - including 2 goals and 3 points in one game against the Rangers. Since then, 2021 Jack Hughes offensive line is as similar to 2020 Jack Hughes as Kakko is to his 2020 counterpart.

What is the argument here? Kakko is ok, or not that bad because Jack Hughes is not performing like a true #1OA? It's ok for Kakko to not produce because other players are not producing that much more? Are we reaching, just to justify that 'everything is fine'. Do you believe this or are you just playing devils advocate?

We've seen improvement YoY. but Kakko's first 2 NHL seasons have been disappointments ( up to this point ) would you not agree?

We are ALL hoping and clinging to anything positive. It is what it is... it has been a really shitty season, for the team and for a lot of our offensive forwards. The 'dissatisfaction' is a symptom and it should subside once things start trending up. Did we all not just witness that 1st period, last game? We've been watching that level of hockey all season. The bad, ugly and dull is outweighing the good. Is it really that hard to believe that this 'bad hockey' is having a negative effects on our #2OA?

There are still some bright spots and for what we hope is a blindingly bright and silver future.

 

[Machinehead]

Another thing with Lafreniere that annoys me is how often he's loafing around with his stick in the air.

We talk about the Rangers wanting him to play the right way and be complete and how that's more important than the production right now.

Ok, then why the f*** is that still happening in game 27? And it would be one thing if we were told he has to work on that but coming in, the consensus on him was that he had not only a good compete-level, but a standout compete-level that separated him from the pack.

When our coach who's all about character can't get a kid with an elite compete-level to put his f***ing stick on the ice, that's where I'm just like "ok, who is wrong here?"

 

[SA16]

The first bolded shouldn't be the case anymore. At least not this year. Funny thing is, playing his "better" players on the PP hasn't worked for him at all this year. We aren't a week into the season anymore, we're about half way through the schedule. We're well beyond the point where trying ANYTHING else is a better move than to keep shoving that group down our throats. It hasn't worked, period.

Giant assumption with the 2nd too.

It is the case and Buchnevich being better than Laf/Kakko right now is a fairly obvious assumption given their play all year. A giant assumption would be assuming the contrary. Zibanejad has very little to do with them on the PP anyway since they wouldn’t play the same role. Not to mention either Zibanejad or Strome or Chytil must be on PP1 or there is no center.

I would like to see them get a chance but it’s fairly obvious why they haven’t.

 

[kovazub94]

It's the go to for the Quinntuplets.

The funniest part is a few of them pointing at Gauthier and K'Andre for "losing" the game yesterday was the most predictable thing ever. Not one mention about their horrendous start (which has become a running theme of this season) or running the same inept group of forwards out their for the PP where they failed to convert against one of the worst (may have been the worst) PK units in the league.

The truth is all of those things contributed, but 2 of the 4 can be tied to coaching.

Coach is running PP that generated a lot of goals as recent as last season and continue to generate opportunities - just unable to convert. I fail to see whom Quinn can replace on the PP1. The second unit? To me they ARE struggling but the blame goes largely goes to execution from the likes of Lafreniere, Kakko etc rather than the coach (even though this is one of the few faults I actually acknowledge when it comes to Quinn: Strome (RHS) working on PP1 doesn’t mean that 4RHS or 4 LHS on one unit should work in general).

Flat start? In the game the Rangers had overwhelming dominance? No one would be talking about it if there were no silly mistakes and bad goals allowed by Kinks. Again, as @Tawnos noted the team could’ve quit but they recovered and took over the game - a sign that coaches’ message is getting through and players didn’t quit on him. So yeah individual mistakes in a particular game (in addition to not having Fox and Buchnevich) are THE factors in this loss.

 

[kovazub94]

There's no real need to ask why. The answer is obvious. Kreider, Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox are fixtures on PP1. That leaves one spot. I don't like Strome there. Buchnevich is a better option than Kakko/Lafreniere. The coach is trying to win games. He plays the better players there. There is always a disconnect between ownership, management, and coaching in these scenarios. Why would the coach play a worse player there which then reduces his chance to win which then increases his chance to get fired?

I agree that when it comes to PP1 the only real question at the moment is Strome vs Buchnevich and I’m pretty sure both got enough chances, and even though RHS is not preferable in that spot, Strome’s passing and converting are strong enough to warrant him being there. It is what it is.