Dark Side of the Ring - Viceland show

[ManofSteel55]

How trustworthy is this show? I don’t know anything about wrestling.

It was the legit biggest show of all time. Held in North Korea. The government forced everyone to attend though, nobody knew what wrestling was or what was going on so technically not being killed was the draw.

 

[MikeyMike01]

It was the legit biggest show of all time. Held in North Korea. The government forced everyone to attend though, nobody knew what wrestling was or what was going on so technically not being killed was the draw.

I mean how trustworthy is DSoTR in general

 

[sabremike]

I mean how trustworthy is DSoTR in general

Very.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Your analysis of Bret Hart is pretty awful. He was one of the best ever at making his opponent look good. He certainly wasn't selfish in the ringike you suggest.

Hahahahaha

Harts the sole reason the screw job happened. So right there, you lose any kind of credibility. The most selfish incident in pro wrestling history was orchestrated because Hart wouldn’t put somebody over on the way out.

Bret Hart made his friends look good. Flair made everyone look good.

Hart put HBK over during the iron man match, then wanted to have this big passing of the torch moment where he personally handed HBK the belt in the middle of the ring so he looked good going out until HBK told him to get out of his ring.

Hart stuck his nose in Nash‘a feud with Taker and refused the jack to the point Taker had to yell at him “mf’er, it’s not about you”.

Yes, he made that one roided up oaf look like a million bucks that Vince had to hide the match for decades, and his tag matches were stellar, but after the push he was just as stingy as anybody and picked and choosed who he put over.

A washed up Flair put Foley over after calling him a glorified stunt man. These are two different wrestlers here.

Off the top of my head, Flair made Sting a house hold name with one match. Flair made Lex Luger a house hold name and Luger wasn’t any good. Flair made Brian Pillman in one match to the highest ratings TBS had in months.

Hart put over….Owen Hart.

And no, the SCSA double turn had nothing to do with Hart. Austin was white hot at the time and Vince could have built a program with Mabel and Austin wouldn’t have lost momentum.

So I’m calling shenanigans on that. Bret Hart is severely over rated and was nothing more then a great worker who’s career was built by Vince who didn’t have any other option at the time. What did Bret Hart do once he left Vince? Nothing. He’s nowhere in the conversation with Ric Flair on any best lists considering everything Flair has done and Flairs proven success at drawing money.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Very.

No.

DSotR is nothing more then a high profile shoot interview. If Hogans on there saying he body slammed a 500 pound Andre I’m still not believing him.

Anything coming out of Jake Roberts mouth I’ll take with a grain of salt. I love me some Jim Cornette but he has a problem with defending old school guys (cough, Grizzly Smith, cough) up until the bitter end then completely drops them from his vocabulary once the court of public opinion weighs against him.

And until they stop using WWE footage, you won’t ever get the actual story. If you don’t think Vince gets a copy before it’s aired for his approval you are fooling yourself.

 

[GKJ]

No.

DSotR is nothing more then a high profile shoot interview. If Hogans on there saying he body slammed a 500 pound Andre I’m still not believing him.

Anything coming out of Jake Roberts mouth I’ll take with a grain of salt. I love me some Jim Cornette but he has a problem with defending old school guys (cough, Grizzly Smith, cough) up until the bitter end then completely drops them from his vocabulary once the court of public opinion weighs against him.

And until they stop using WWE footage, you won’t ever get the actual story. If you don’t think Vince gets a copy before it’s aired for his approval you are fooling yourself.

What? You think Vince is “approving” things like the plane ride from hell? Or that he would even give a shit about UWF or FMW?

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

What? You think Vince is “approving” things like the plane ride from hell? Or that he would even give a shit about UWF or FMW?

I do recall them dumping Flair a few weeks before it aired and nobody knowing why. I also seem to think the PfH episode only effected one guy, Lesnar, that’s on their direct payroll outside of Hayes and even then, the WWE was in the drivers seat considering they could have just put him back in moth balls if the Twitterverse actually tried to cancel him.

And nobody said Vince cares about two defunct orgs, more reason he lets them use his footage. He’s still standing, they’re not.

 

[GKJ]

I do recall them dumping Flair a few weeks before it aired and nobody knowing why. I also seem to think the PfH episode only effected one guy, Lesnar, that’s on their direct payroll outside of Hayes and even then, the WWE was in the drivers seat considering they could have just put him back in moth balls if the Twitterverse actually tried to cancel him.

And nobody said Vince cares about two defunct orgs, more reason he lets them use his footage. He’s still standing, they’re not.

Flair left because that’s what he wanted as WWE was cutting overhead.

And Vince actually doesn’t let them use his footage, fair use doctrine allows them to.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Legend in his and many people's minds sure. Longevity helps that narrative.
Tell me, how many PPVs did you purchase because you just had to see the latest iteration of the same old match that slimebag wrestled? Chops, WOO, fall face down, WOO, try to go to the ropes...etc.

Sure, beating up his own clothes promos were entertaining, but who actually paid to see that horsecrap?
He stuck around forever for all of WCW's lowest moments, was a big fat nothing in WWF/E beyond his initial push.

Today, he is nothing but a pathetic vile sleazebag of a man that hasn't quite had his Ron Jeremy (another "legend") moment yet.

But back on topic, what does scumbag Flair still have against Kanyon after all of these years?

"I wasn’t a huge Kanyon fan as a worker," like he was The Great Khali or Giant Gonzales in the ring.

Sure, Kanyon wasn't top of the card, but a very solid wrestler when needed.
I would rather see the Flatliner one more time than drunken chops from a half-dead mummy.

Lol

From 78 to 84, Ric Flair was the best American wrestler in the world and the second highest draw after a pop culture phenomenon.

They built Starrcade around Ric Flair. Starrcade pre-dates Wrestlemania.

Anybody who doesn’t think Ric Flair was a draw really needs to do their homework

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Flair left because that’s what he wanted as WWE was cutting overhead.

And Vince actually doesn’t let them use his footage, fair use doctrine allows them to.

1. I don’t believe a word out of Flairs mouth but sure?

2. Fair use only goes so far.

 

[GKJ]

1. I don’t believe a word out of Flairs mouth but sure?

2. Fair use only goes so far.

Fair use allows you to use limited copyrighted footage if it’s for news and/or documentary. If they want to use a few 15-second clips, they can, without permission, and Vince can’t stop them.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

I believe in either the 70's or early 80's there was a year in Memphis with Jerry Lawler where they sold a total of 400,000 tickets for their weekly shows at the Mid South Coliseum. To put that in perspective with the possible exception of the peak year or two of the Austin Era no year of Raw comes close to that in terms of average attendance (and that's shows in different cities, Lawler did that in a single city).

I still think those numbers were Fargo.

Not that Lawler wasn’t a huge draw in Memphis, he was, but if you listen to Cornette, who is to this day a Lawler mark, even he will tell you Lawler was nowhere close to Fargo in drawing money.

You might be right, tho. Lawler was white hot during the Kaufman feud and rewatching that stuff that place was filled.

Lawlers greatest one liner was when Lance Russell asked him if he would hurt a famous actor and Lawler just quipped “I think I have to”

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Fair use allows you to use limited copyrighted footage if it’s for news and/or documentary. If they want to use a few 15-second clips, they can, without permission, and Vince can’t stop them.

Well, I know what fair use is and the laws surrounding it, so your not telling me anything new.

But, I also know Vince McMahon is a powerful person in media. If he doesn’t want stuff out there, it won’t be, and if it does get out there, he has the power and influence to drop it.

If you don’t think Vince is getting a early copy of each episode, idk what to tell you. If you don’t think Vice producers aren’t getting Vinces blessing, idk what to tell you.

When we see episodes about the ring boy scandal and Pat Patterson, then maybe I’ll agree with you

 

[GKJ]

Well, I know what fair use is and the laws surrounding it, so your not telling me anything new.

But, I also know Vince McMahon is a powerful person in media. If he doesn’t want stuff out there, it won’t be, and if it does get out there, he has the power and influence to drop it.

If you don’t think Vince is getting a early copy of each episode, idk what to tell you. If you don’t think Vice producers aren’t getting Vinces blessing, idk what to tell you.

When we see episodes about the ring boy scandal and Pat Patterson, then maybe I’ll agree with you

I’m telling you at least something new, you thought Vince was releasing the footage to them when he hasn’t.

Do you have evidence of this? They’re gonna do the steroid trials next week.

 

[Megahab]

Hahahahaha

Harts the sole reason the screw job happened. So right there, you lose any kind of credibility. The most selfish incident in pro wrestling history was orchestrated because Hart wouldn’t put somebody over on the way out.

Bret Hart made his friends look good. Flair made everyone look good.

Hart put HBK over during the iron man match, then wanted to have this big passing of the torch moment where he personally handed HBK the belt in the middle of the ring so he looked good going out until HBK told him to get out of his ring.

Hart stuck his nose in Nash‘a feud with Taker and refused the jack to the point Taker had to yell at him “mf’er, it’s not about you”.

Yes, he made that one roided up oaf look like a million bucks that Vince had to hide the match for decades, and his tag matches were stellar, but after the push he was just as stingy as anybody and picked and choosed who he put over.

A washed up Flair put Foley over after calling him a glorified stunt man. These are two different wrestlers here.

Off the top of my head, Flair made Sting a house hold name with one match. Flair made Lex Luger a house hold name and Luger wasn’t any good. Flair made Brian Pillman in one match to the highest ratings TBS had in months.

Hart put over….Owen Hart.

And no, the SCSA double turn had nothing to do with Hart. Austin was white hot at the time and Vince could have built a program with Mabel and Austin wouldn’t have lost momentum.

So I’m calling shenanigans on that. Bret Hart is severely over rated and was nothing more then a great worker who’s career was built by Vince who didn’t have any other option at the time. What did Bret Hart do once he left Vince? Nothing. He’s nowhere in the conversation with Ric Flair on any best lists considering everything Flair has done and Flairs proven success at drawing money.

Hart didn't want to put HBK over because HBK flat out said he wouldn't do the same. I commend Hart for not bitching out. Hart was willing to put anyone over anywhere except HBK.

I know at WM12, HBK apparently told Hart to get out of the ring. Where did you hear that Hart wanted to make it all about him with a passing of the torch moment?

Austin was getting over but he was not white-hot before WM13. To say the same result would have happened no matter who Austin's opponent was is just ridiculous. That was the perfect match (my all time favourite). You couldn't have done that with just anyone and this opinion just tells me you hate Hart and are biased. Lol at Austin vs. Mabel giving Austin the same moment. I'm sorry but that is absurd.

 

[Megahab]

Well, I know what fair use is and the laws surrounding it, so your not telling me anything new.

But, I also know Vince McMahon is a powerful person in media. If he doesn’t want stuff out there, it won’t be, and if it does get out there, he has the power and influence to drop it.

If you don’t think Vince is getting a early copy of each episode, idk what to tell you. If you don’t think Vice producers aren’t getting Vinces blessing, idk what to tell you.

When we see episodes about the ring boy scandal and Pat Patterson, then maybe I’ll agree with you

Why do they need Vince's approval? What legal power does Vince has to stop that footage from airing?

I can't imagine Vince approving the Owen Hart episode or the plane ride from hell. You think he said "okay, I'll just release Flair and then you can air it."?

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

I’m telling you at least something new, you thought Vince was releasing the footage to them when he hasn’t.

Do you have evidence of this? They’re gonna do the steroid trials next week.

No, you are not.

You are claiming “fair use”, but fair use is a claim used in court. I don’t know if Vice has been sued over using footage, do you?

So it comes down to;

A. They are using Vinces footage with his blessing.

B. They are paying Vince to use his footage.

C. They are just using his footage waiting for Vince to take them to court to claim fair use and show a judge all the cool filters they used over Vinces footage.

Considering Foley is a huge part of this show, and is still on WWE’s payroll, I’ll lean closer to A then any other option.

Do you have evidence Vice isn’t working with Vince?

And I don’t really care about the steroid trail. That’s not what I said in the first place.

 

[GKJ]

No, you are not.

You are claiming “fair use”, but fair use is a claim used in court. I don’t know if Vice has been sued over using footage, do you?

So it comes down to;

A. They are using Vinces footage with his blessing.

B. They are paying Vince to use his footage.

C. They are just using his footage waiting for Vince to take them to court to claim fair use and show a judge all the cool filters they used over Vinces footage.

Considering Foley is a huge part of this show, and is still on WWE’s payroll, I’ll lean closer to A then any other option.

Do you have evidence Vice isn’t working with Vince?

And I don’t really care about the steroid trail. That’s not what I said in the first place.

That’s not how any of this works.

Why would Vice want to be taken to court? Maybe they don’t care if they are since the fair use laws protect them but that’s why they can do it.

You’re the one making the claim Vince is copacetic with Vice. I didn’t say that, you did. You can’t claim absence of evidence as evidence.

Vince has his own production company, one he is using to do his own fictionalized account of the steroid trials. Just because you don’t care about doesn’t make you right or it irrelevant.

Foley is not signed to them. He’s been making GCW appearances. And he hasn’t been a part of much, if any, of their episodes involving WWE apart from voiceovers in season 1. His son might still be there though.

 

[Megahab]

If what @Krisbryantisbest is saying is true (it's not), what possible reason would Vince have for approving footage that only makes him and his company look bad?

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

That’s not how any of this works.

Why would Vice want to be taken to court? Maybe they don’t care if they are since the fair use laws protect them but that’s why they can do it.

You’re the one making the claim Vince is copacetic with Vice. I didn’t say that, you did. You can’t claim absence of evidence as evidence.

Vince has his own production company, one he is using to do his own fictionalized account of the steroid trials. Just because you don’t care about doesn’t make you right or it irrelevant.

Foley is not signed to them. He’s been making GCW appearances. And he hasn’t been a part of much, if any, of their episodes involving WWE apart from voiceovers in season 1. His son might still be there though.

A simple google search will prove Foley is signed with the WWE. He still does appearances on their behalf.

Wait, he wasn’t in the FMW episode? Hmmm

Back to Fair use. You cannot just claim fair use without it being taken to court. Fair use is a defense, not some made up rule to use copyrighted material.

Are you a content creator by chance? On a social media platform? Because if you were, you would know these things. As a streamer, I know more about fair use then I care to indulge and it’s a weak argument at best and a useless crutch at worst.

If you are claiming DSotR is a documentary, then I don’t think you know what a documentary is, because any account in the world of professional wrestling, is questionable at best. The entire industry is a lie. DSotR is the retelling of old wives tales from the industry for dramatic effect. You don’t know who’s telling the truth and who isn’t. And because of that, if Vince wanted to take Vice to court over it, Vice would lose, easily, for using copyrighted material.

Unless they had consent, or bought the content.

Sorry, I’m not some google lawyer or YouTuber ripping music and uploading snippets. I have a firm grasp of Fair Use laws from experience and just roll my eyes when people use that as some sort of get out of jail free card to steal copyrighted material.

Is Vice making money on advertising? Or do they have a deal with Vince on it? There’s a ton of scenarios out there but all of them lead to Vince having some sort of influence on whatever Vice puts out there. It would not shock me one bit if Vince has an agreement with Vice to use their footage, you know, the biggest collection of wrestling footage in the world with DCMA’s on the producers mouths that if they say one word Vince sues them bankrupt.

As for the steroid scandal, it’s been beaten to death and Meltzer did the best content about it back in the day. If you really want to make it the WWE has no involvement, talk about the ring boy scandal or Pat Patterson in this age of cancel culture. Those two topics could ruin the WWE from a public standpoint. Steroids, not so much

 

[GKJ]

A simple google search will prove Foley is signed with the WWE. He still does appearances on their behalf.

Wait, he wasn’t in the FMW episode? Hmmm

Back to Fair use. You cannot just claim fair use without it being taken to court. Fair use is a defense, not some made up rule to use copyrighted material.

Are you a content creator by chance? On a social media platform? Because if you were, you would know these things. As a streamer, I know more about fair use then I care to indulge and it’s a weak argument at best and a useless crutch at worst.

If you are claiming DSotR is a documentary, then I don’t think you know what a documentary is, because any account in the world of professional wrestling, is questionable at best. The entire industry is a lie. DSotR is the retelling of old wives tales from the industry for dramatic effect. You don’t know who’s telling the truth and who isn’t. And because of that, if Vince wanted to take Vice to court over it, Vice would lose, easily, for using copyrighted material.

Unless they had consent, or bought the content.

Sorry, I’m not some google lawyer or YouTuber ripping music and uploading snippets. I have a firm grasp of Fair Use laws from experience and just roll my eyes when people use that as some sort of get out of jail free card to steal copyrighted material.

Is Vice making money on advertising? Or do they have a deal with Vince on it? There’s a ton of scenarios out there but all of them lead to Vince having some sort of influence on whatever Vice puts out there. It would not shock me one bit if Vince has an agreement with Vice to use their footage, you know, the biggest collection of wrestling footage in the world with DCMA’s on the producers mouths that if they say one word Vince sues them bankrupt.

As for the steroid scandal, it’s been beaten to death and Meltzer did the best content about it back in the day. If you really want to make it the WWE has no involvement, talk about the ring boy scandal or Pat Patterson in this age of cancel culture. Those two topics could ruin the WWE from a public standpoint. Steroids, not so much

You obviously don't, because the very definition of fair use is that you're not seeking permission to use copyrighted material or intellectual property. It may end up being disputed and litigated, but you don't go to court first to claim you're going to use it. That's what the lawyers are for.

This is straight from the US Copyright office More Information on Fair Use | U.S. Copyright Office

"Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use. "

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

You obviously don't, because the very definition of fair use is that you're not seeking permission to use copyrighted material or intellectual property. It may end up being disputed and litigated, but you don't go to court first to claim you're going to use it. That's what the lawyers are for.

This is straight from the US Copyright office More Information on Fair Use | U.S. Copyright Office

"Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use. "

You obviously missed the part where I said Fair Use is used as a defense, but carry on?

Edit- And please show me where Foley isn’t still signed with the WWE.

Siri- is Mick Foley signed by the WWE?

 

[sabremike]

If they were stooges for Vince they never do those episodes on Benoit or Owen (seriously, go back and watch them both).

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

If they were stooges for Vince they never do those episodes on Benoit or Owen (seriously, go back and watch them both).

Nobody cares.

It’s like saying Germany won’t let the media make shows about the Holocaust.

The WWE is bigger then Benoit and Owen Hart. Tragic events, but neither do anything to mess with Vinces bottom line.

Show of hands;

How many people stopped watching wrestling because of a DSotR episode?

None? Thought so

 

[GKJ]

You obviously missed the part where I said Fair Use is used as a defense, but carry on?

Yeah, in court, which until they are, they are not. Since you're not making any sense, I don't know what else you're trying to say. Fair use is more a doctrine of law. Vice does not need Vince's permission to use his IP provided it is used properly under these auspices, of which there is yet to be evidence that they are not. If by 'Vince gave them his blessing' you mean that Vince isn't trying to stop them because he and his legal don't thin they have a case to stop them. That doesn't even mean he is cooperating, he's just not doing anything tangible to stop them.