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Daniel Carcillo (June 3 - Susp. reduced 10 gms to 6 gms)

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Rust Heisenberg said:
Yea, a cop being the comparable profession here is pretty silly.

Regardless, I'm hoping Carcillo gets the suspension reduced to 3 games - the most minor suspension of the "assault" on referee's.
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Exactly!

NHL refs are not the police. They are more similar to "mall cops," who have quasi-authority to enforce the rules of the establishment.

As a result of their "authority," I think they should be fair game. If a fight is with a referee, it should be the standard 5 minute major, and smacking a linesman should be a 2 minute minor unless you draw blood that would understandably lead to a 4 minute double minor. I could live with that.

"Abuse" of the "officials is a way that the Rangers could stick it to those no-nothings on their high horses in Toronto.

paul_blart_2.jpg
 
ReggieDunlop68 said:
Exactly!

NHL refs are not the police. They are more similar to "mall cops," who have quasi-authority to enforce the rules of the establishment.

As a result of their "authority," I think they should be fair game. If a fight is with a referee, it should be the standard 5 minute major, and smacking a linesman should be a 2 minute minor unless you draw blood that would understandably lead to a 4 minute double minor. I could live with that.

"Abuse" of the "officials is a way that the Rangers could stick it to those no-nothings on their high horses in Toronto.

paul_blart_2.jpg
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Assaulting a mall cop will get you barred from the establishment.

It's like that in a lot of places..

Like in a school, fighting another student usually results in a few days suspension. If you punch a teacher you'll probably get expelled.
 
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Hockey Team said:
Assaulting a mall cop will get you barred from the establishment.

It's like that in a lot of places..

Like in a school, fighting another student usually results in a few days suspension. If you punch a teacher you'll probably get expelled.
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You sound like a Habs fan. I say the Rangers should be able to at least fight the linesman for bad offsides and icings, and you immediately defend them. HF boards has a Montreal section. If you think the refs shouldn't be physical targets, you are probably from Canada!
 
Hockey Team said:
Assaulting a mall cop will get you barred from the establishment.

It's like that in a lot of places..

Like in a school, fighting another student usually results in a few days suspension. If you punch a teacher you'll probably get expelled.
Click to expand...

Really now, let's please make analogies that are applicable.

The refs are not the people that people pay to see. They pay to see the players. Teachers - people pay specifically so that kids get better teachers. It's not like in the NHL you can pay more and have better referees. Doesn't work like that.

Same thing with cops. What type of analogy is this? Cops are paid by people so that they can protect us (meaning everyone). They put their lives on the job, face dangers most of us would run away from at first hint, and again are relied on by society to protect.

What you're talking about here, more or less, are bouncers. Bouncers come in when things get out of hand, separate fights, enforce establishment rules, etc. And just like Driscoll just did, bouncers exercise more power than they have just because they have the protection and capability of doing so by law (and other times physical advantages).

Be that as it may, Carcillo should have been smarter with his actions. Trying to fight a societal problem should not have been on his agenda in game 3 of the ECF. People in this position have more power and are enabled to act in a power hungry roll from time to time. Just the way things are. Knew he'd get suspended, but in an ideal world, Driscoll would be suspended too and both suspensions would be much shorter than 10 games.
 
LOL, Dunlop, I've come to appreciate your posts (after many disagreements).

But seriously, it's exactly like a cop. The refs and linesmen are out there policing the game. Without them it's pond hockey. Police are (allegedly) patrolling the streets, keeping them safe. If a cop unlawfully arrests you, you can use reasonable, non-deadly force to resist.

BUT - if there was a statute saying otherwise - as the NHL has a rule stating this type of action is punishable by a suspension of 3, 10, or 20 games - then the statute would apply. Either way, there is an NHL rule that says X and thus X applies. The comparison to police was merely an analogy not meant to be picked apart, but just to give real world context.
 
Rust Heisenberg said:
Really now, let's please make analogies that are applicable.

The refs are not the people that people pay to see. They pay to see the players. Teachers - people pay specifically so that kids get better teachers. It's not like in the NHL you can pay more and have better referees. Doesn't work like that.

Same thing with cops. What type of analogy is this? Cops are paid by people so that they can protect us (meaning everyone). They put their lives on the job, face dangers most of us would run away from at first hint, and again are relied on by society to protect.

What you're talking about here, more or less, are bouncers. Bouncers come in when things get out of hand, separate fights, enforce establishment rules, etc. And just like Driscoll just did, bouncers exercise more power than they have just because they have the protection and capability of doing so by law (and other times physical advantages).

Be that as it may, Carcillo should have been smarter with his actions. Trying to fight a societal problem should not have been on his agenda in game 3 of the ECF. People in this position have more power and are enabled to act in a power hungry roll from time to time. Just the way things are. Knew he'd get suspended, but in an ideal world, Driscoll would be suspended too and both suspensions would be much shorter than 10 games.
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Refs call penalties on those violating the rules and they get punished. Cops arrest those violating the law and they get punished. Why the huge pushback on this?
 
Rust Heisenberg said:
Really now, let's please make analogies that are applicable.

The refs are not the people that people pay to see. They pay to see the players. Teachers - people pay specifically so that kids get better teachers. It's not like in the NHL you can pay more and have better referees. Doesn't work like that.

Same thing with cops. What type of analogy is this? Cops are paid by people so that they can protect us (meaning everyone). They put their lives on the job, face dangers most of us would run away from at first hint, and again are relied on by society to protect.

What you're talking about here, more or less, are bouncers. Bouncers come in when things get out of hand, separate fights, enforce establishment rules, etc. And just like Driscoll just did, bouncers exercise more power than they have just because they have the protection and capability of doing so by law (and other times physical advantages).

Be that as it may, Carcillo should have been smarter with his actions. Trying to fight a societal problem should not have been on his agenda in game 3 of the ECF. People in this position have more power and are enabled to act in a power hungry roll from time to time. Just the way things are. Knew he'd get suspended, but in an ideal world, Driscoll would be suspended too and both suspensions would be much shorter than 10 games.
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If the NHL followed by plan and finally allowed the players to give the officials a what's for, Carcillo would have been given only a 2 minute minor.

If the officials don't want to smacked around, the probably should have picked another sport.

For instance, I saw a video from a long time ago with Maurice Richard. Anyway, the "official" made a terrible call that even a Ranger fan would consider out of line. Fortunately, Richard really layers into the official, and that fight helped turned the battle in that series.

Boy o boy! Today's players are just a bunch of wimps if the won't drop the gloves with the refs.
 
ReggieDunlop68 said:
If the NHL followed by plan and finally allowed the players to give the officials a what's for, Carcillo would have been given only a 2 minute minor.

If the officials don't want to smacked around, the probably should have picked another sport.

For instance, I saw a video from a long time ago with Maurice Richard. Anyway, the "official" made a terrible call that even a Ranger fan would consider out of line. Fortunately, Richard really layers into the official, and that fight helped turned the battle in that series.

Boy o boy! Today's players are just a bunch of wimps if the won't drop the gloves with the refs.
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That's a little radical man...
 
ReggieDunlop68 said:
Exactly!

NHL refs are not the police. They are more similar to "mall cops," who have quasi-authority to enforce the rules of the establishment.

As a result of their "authority," I think they should be fair game. If a fight is with a referee, it should be the standard 5 minute major, and smacking a linesman should be a 2 minute minor unless you draw blood that would understandably lead to a 4 minute double minor. I could live with that.

"Abuse" of the "officials is a way that the Rangers could stick it to those no-nothings on their high horses in Toronto.
Click to expand...

I can only assume you are kidding. Because if you are serious - you are perhaps one of the dumbest people I've ever encountered on these forums. But you must be kidding.
 
Rust Heisenberg said:
Really now, let's please make analogies that are applicable.

The refs are not the people that people pay to see. They pay to see the players. Teachers - people pay specifically so that kids get better teachers. It's not like in the NHL you can pay more and have better referees. Doesn't work like that.

Same thing with cops. What type of analogy is this? Cops are paid by people so that they can protect us (meaning everyone). They put their lives on the job, face dangers most of us would run away from at first hint, and again are relied on by society to protect.

What you're talking about here, more or less, are bouncers. Bouncers come in when things get out of hand, separate fights, enforce establishment rules, etc. And just like Driscoll just did, bouncers exercise more power than they have just because they have the protection and capability of doing so by law (and other times physical advantages).

Be that as it may, Carcillo should have been smarter with his actions. Trying to fight a societal problem should not have been on his agenda in game 3 of the ECF. People in this position have more power and are enabled to act in a power hungry roll from time to time. Just the way things are. Knew he'd get suspended, but in an ideal world, Driscoll would be suspended too and both suspensions would be much shorter than 10 games.
Click to expand...

Well, there's a specific rule that makes the 10 games automatic. Carcillo's actions did indeed fall under those rules (physical force on an official without intent to injure). Whether the rule's good or bad is up for debate, but in this case, the rule as written was applied correctly. Yeah, it's ridiculous he got 10 games for basically a nudge with an elbow, but those are the rules.

I DO understand the need to protect officials though, otherwise they would have no power to keep things under control when things get out of hand.

It's like leaving the bench to join a fight, you get 10 games for that no matter what. You don't touch officials, period.
 
Hockey Team said:
Well, there's a specific rule that makes the 10 games automatic. Carcillo's actions did indeed fall under those rules (physical force on an official without intent to injure). Whether the rule's good or bad is up for debate, but in this case, the rule as written was applied correctly. Yeah, it's ridiculous he got 10 games for basically a nudge with an elbow, but those are the rules.

I DO understand the need to protect officials though, otherwise they would have no power to keep things under control when things get out of hand.

It's like leaving the bench to join a fight, you get 10 games for that no matter what. You don't touch officials, period.
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Only that it's not an automatic 10 game suspension. It's either a 3, 10 or 20 depending on what the officials decide after the game. In this kind of situation the referees should explain their side and Carcillo should be given the chance to explain his side. The way the ref grabbed him and shoves him into the boards should be a factor considered for what went down. The suspension might have been exactly the same as now in the end, but at least there would have been some external entity that handed down the punishment, and not the guys who was involved in the altercation. We can't have a free-for-all on the refs, that is something any sane person understands. But it's still not good that they get to be judge, jury and executioner.
 
Not to be crass, but there could be a significant upside to this suspension: Carcillo's next contract.

Considering that this suspension very well could carry over to the next season, his desirability to other teams around the league will likely take a hit and we may be able to extend him at a couple of $100k less than we'd otherwise have to pay him. Considering the upcoming cap crunch that would be very welcome as Carcillo is pretty ideal as a 13F.
 
jerseyjinx94 said:
Refs call penalties on those violating the rules and they get punished. Cops arrest those violating the law and they get punished. Why the huge pushback on this?
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Furthermore, you cannot physically resist either no matter how legitimate your argument against wrongdoing is.

Its simlpiler than that. Its illegal to touch either group aggressively, and they are the ones that have the authority to restrict your freedom. Its just a no-no.
 
Blue Blooded said:
Not to be crass, but there could be a significant upside to this suspension: Carcillo's next contract.

Considering that this suspension very well could carry over to the next season, his desirability to other teams around the league will likely take a hit and we may be able to extend him at a couple of $100k less than we'd otherwise have to pay him. Considering the upcoming cap crunch that would be very welcome as Carcillo is pretty ideal as a 13F.
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I like having him as a depth forward as well. With this series and future POs in mind; take out one of our best players and we'll ad our 13th forward. He's called Car-bomb.
 
Blue Blooded said:
Not to be crass, but there could be a significant upside to this suspension: Carcillo's next contract.

Considering that this suspension very well could carry over to the next season, his desirability to other teams around the league will likely take a hit and we may be able to extend him at a couple of $100k less than we'd otherwise have to pay him. Considering the upcoming cap crunch that would be very welcome as Carcillo is pretty ideal as a 13F.
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Slats should appeal, try to get it to 20! ;)
 
KingStian said:
Only that it's not an automatic 10 game suspension. It's either a 3, 10 or 20 depending on what the officials decide after the game. In this kind of situation the referees should explain their side and Carcillo should be given the chance to explain his side. The way the ref grabbed him and shoves him into the boards should be a factor considered for what went down. The suspension might have been exactly the same as now in the end, but at least there would have been some external entity that handed down the punishment, and not the guys who was involved in the altercation. We can't have a free-for-all on the refs, that is something any sane person understands. But it's still not good that they get to be judge, jury and executioner.
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It is automatic.

40.2 Automatic Suspension – Category I - Any player who deliberately strikes an official and causes injury or who deliberately applies physical force in any manner against an official with intent to injure, or who in any manner attempts to injure an official shall be automatically suspended for not less than twenty (20) games. (For the purpose of the rule, “intent to injure†shall mean any physical force which a player or goalkeeper knew or should have known could reasonably be expected to cause injury.)

40.3 Automatic Suspension – Category II - Any player who deliberately applies physical force to an official in any manner (excluding actions as set out in Category I), which physical force is applied without intent to injure, or who spits on an official,shall be automatically suspended for not less than ten (10) games.

40.4 Automatic Suspension – Category III - Any player who, by his actions, physically demeans an official or physically threatens an official by (but not limited to) throwing a stick or any other piece of equipment or object at or in the general direction of an official, shooting the puck at or in the general direction of an official, spitting at or in the general direction of an official, or who deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall be suspended for not less than three (3) games.
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It's an automatic 3 games for throwing something at an official.

Automatic 10 games for deliberately applying any kind of force to an official. (And seeing how Carcillo was alone with the linesman, it's pretty clear he was applying deliberate force against the linesman to try to get free from him)

20 games for attempt to injure.

There's a judgement call for whether the force was an attempt to injure or not, so 20 games isn't automatic, but 10 games absolutely is.

There's a pretty clear distinction between throwing things and applying physical force.

According to the way the rules are written, it's clear he was getting the suspension. And given Carcillo's history, I don't expect the NHL to give any slack to a guy who has a history full of dirty plays, unsportsmanlike conduct, and suspensions. HIs appeal meeting will likely be a formality and won't be taken seriously.
 
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