Speculation: Dale Weise: "I'm not going to lie, I know there's a good chance I'll be traded."

[Habsawce]

https://twitter.com/EricEngels/status/701480491711647744?ref_src=twsrc^tfw


Eric Engels
‏@EricEngels
According to phone calls I made since last week: Anaheim, Nashville, Pittsburgh in mix for Dale Weise.

If Pittsburgh is in on this he could fetch more than a 2nd round pick! Rutherford has no idea how to value players in trades.

 

[Runner77]

Not wanting to trade Weise and Byron are mind-boggling to me. You will be able to get the same kind of players at UFA period. You have established as an organization that you can't trade and you can't do ****. The only thing you can do is draft. And you will not get draft picks because you want to keep guys you actually can get in July? Why? Oh just because you will only get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th rounders for them? Do we have to see guys that were gotten at that rank for us and other teams?

I agree with your rationale, however as we've seen from the trade thread, indications are that Weise is being shopped, while for Byron, they are receiving calls. I'm with you on this -- this is a good time to lock up some picks and stop over-valuing these 4th liner types. Bergevin has always been able to find them -- if anything, I'd rather he fail a little more at landing 4th liners and show a higher batting average when it comes to higher end players.

 

[Michelangelo]

Read that on HockeyBuzz:

Dallas Stars forward Valeri Nichhushkin has been mired in a pretty deep slump --- now 19 games without a goal and, except for a two-goal game on Jan. 3, has gone without a goal in 30 of his last 31 games. From what I am hearing. the Dallas Stars are "not giving up on him at all" and realize that what he's going through is nothing unusual for a lot of young players; even many with superstar skills

Imagine if MT was the coach of Dallas. Is Lindy Ruff so bad with young players? Is he ruining Nichushkin developpment? Of course not.

Lol, what does this have to do with anything?

 

[HabsRenegade]

What an odd thing to say from his point of view. If he likes it that much here, why doesn't he keep his mouth shut and sign for a discount price?

 

[Habsawce]

What an odd thing to say from his point of view. If he likes it that much here, why doesn't he keep his mouth shut and sign for a discount price?

Because this is the only chance he's had in his entire career to make a max value contract. Why would he turn that down for a discount? It makes no sense from his point of view.

Now, I'm sure he does love Montreal and wants to stay; but he has a family to look after and making the maximum he can is more important.

 

[DAChampion]

What an odd thing to say from his point of view. If he likes it that much here, why doesn't he keep his mouth shut and sign for a discount price?

Why is it some fans expect players to sign for a discount?

Money is extremely important in life.

I just got a job offer for next September. Would I go to a slightly better job that pays half as much? No, of course not.

 

[417]

Look at what Winnik got.

Leafs also had TSN pumping his value up up up every day

 

[DAChampion]

Leafs also had TSN pumping his value up up up every day

I doubt that this affects GMs.

 

[Kriss E]

Read that on HockeyBuzz:

Dallas Stars forward Valeri Nichhushkin has been mired in a pretty deep slump --- now 19 games without a goal and, except for a two-goal game on Jan. 3, has gone without a goal in 30 of his last 31 games. From what I am hearing. the Dallas Stars are "not giving up on him at all" and realize that what he's going through is nothing unusual for a lot of young players; even many with superstar skills

Imagine if MT was the coach of Dallas. Is Lindy Ruff so bad with young players? Is he ruining Nichushkin developpment? Of course not.

Nich battled injuries last year. He only played 8 games.
That said, this has nothing to do with how Therrien is doing here.

 

[Rapala]

I doubt that this affects GMs.

Komisarek was a classic example of how hype can affect a negotiation.
I just wouldn't think it could in Winnik's case.

 

[Whitesnake]

Wow, I didn't realize that jeopardizing the tank by scoring a beautiful shootout goal was going to cause a hustler like Paul Byron to attract criticism too!

Wow, I didn't realize that wanting to get as much as you could for a bottom 6 player would mean that I was criticizing him.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Not wanting to trade Weise and Byron are mind-boggling to me. You will be able to get the same kind of players at UFA period. You have established as an organization that you can't trade and you can't do ****. The only thing you can do is draft. And you will not get draft picks because you want to keep guys you actually can get in July? Why? Oh just because you will only get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th rounders for them? Do we have to see guys that were gotten at that rank for us and other teams?

I have nothing against trading guys we don't want to keep. But I think it sends the right message all over the organization when you reward guys who meet or exceed expectations with another contract. You WANT guys to hustle and produce like Weise and Byron have, and you WANT them to show loyalty to the organization.

If either of them has said they likely won't be back, by all means trade them, but in general I would show loyalty to these types of players (but not Flash or Gilbert, see the difference?).

 

[LaP]

Komisarek was a classic example of how hype can affect a negotiation.
I just wouldn't think it could in Winnik's case.

In the case of Komi it was not really media hype. It was just the dream of what this guy could have been.

 

[Whitesnake]

Read that on HockeyBuzz:

Dallas Stars forward Valeri Nichhushkin has been mired in a pretty deep slump --- now 19 games without a goal and, except for a two-goal game on Jan. 3, has gone without a goal in 30 of his last 31 games. From what I am hearing. the Dallas Stars are "not giving up on him at all" and realize that what he's going through is nothing unusual for a lot of young players; even many with superstar skills

Imagine if MT was the coach of Dallas. Is Lindy Ruff so bad with young players? Is he ruining Nichushkin developpment? Of course not.

Newsflash. Dallas might have a shot at the Cup. Habs might have a shot at Matthews. Then, the whole Galchy debate is that most people would want to see him center the #1 or #2 position. To the whole "But...but...but....it's tough to acquire a Center you know" from Bergevin, our answer was..."but you might have one in your own freakin team you dumbass".

Nichuskin is now playing his 2nd full NHL season. Galchy is at his 4th. Something tells me it's fine that they are not at the same level right now and that Dallas is taking more their time with him while in the same freakin time....they are big time winning. While, with what was his 4the year of development in a losing cause, we are still mixing up big time with Galchenyuk. Next year will be his 5th year....where are we going with this? Are we finally going to make him a full time winger? At what point do you stop playing in a guy's head and appoint him a real position?

 

[Rapala]

In the case of Komi it was not really media hype. It was just the dream of what this guy could have been.

He was hyped pretty good around here McGuire for one was always gushing.

 

[Whitesnake]

I have nothing against trading guys we don't want to keep. But I think it sends the right message all over the organization when you reward guys who meet or exceed expectations with another contract. You WANT guys to hustle and produce like Weise and Byron have, and you WANT them to show loyalty to the organization.

If either of them has said they likely won't be back, by all means trade them, but in general I would show loyalty to these types of players (but not Flash or Gilbert, see the difference?).

Nah, sorry. That's stability in mediocrity. Mind you...I do prefer Byron over Flynn. BIG TIME. But this freakin team is really buidling from their bottom 6 to the top 6? Really? We gave a 2-year contract to Flynn for the reason you mentioned. And a 3-year contract to Mitchell too. Mitchell...okay, good faceoff guy. 3-years?. 1 year too much for me but hey it's fine I guess. But Flynn? That reminded me of the Gainey days when the signings of Garth Murray and Aaron Downey were a priority.....How many teams will be settled in their bottom 6 and yet....will have to find probably 3 players to fill up their top 6?

The point was never to say how bad those guys are. Actually, the EASY answer would be to drool and love Byron. And I like him very much. But if a team wants to overpay and give me a 2nd round pick....you really wouldn't do it?

 

[OpenIceHit]

Why is it some fans expect players to sign for a discount?

Money is extremely important in life.

I just got a job offer for next September. Would I go to a slightly better job that pays half as much? No, of course not.

I've been working abroad the last 10 years and I told my boss this week that I would quit sometime this year and settled down here in Montreal. There are things that money simply can't buy.

EDIT: oh and I won't ever find a job that pays as much as I'm getting paid right now.

 

[Kriss E]

Galchenyuk was moved to the wing for two reasons:

First, he was on the ice for WAYYYY too many goals against during a losing stretch. This was over a 4 week period, and not just a statistical fluctuation.

Second, Lars Eller was not working out as well as hoped as a winger. He has been much better at C, in fact should be in our top 6, as you and I have both been saying for a couple of years. At C, at least Eller has a chance to shine more.

Using Galchenyuk at wing is perhaps something which some folks do not agree with, but the idea came to his Junior coaches and the US Junior Team coaches long before Therrien thought of it. Maybe, just maybe, despite the fact that the fans desperately want Galchenyuk to develop into the next Guy Lafleur (but who plays C), he is more like Damphousse and Stamkos and other who can play either C or wing and it is no big deal.

Saying that Galch is "second fiddle" to DD, you would think that he plays A LOT LESS, but the difference is 25 seconds per game! On the PP, Galch even plays more than DD. He is third in minutes played on the PP this year.

Reading posters here, you would think Dale Weise plays more than Galch on the PP or overall, and of course it is not true. Weise plays less minutes per game than Eller and even Fleischmann. Weise is 8th in minutes/game, seventh if we eliminate Fleischmann who has been in the stands lately.

Now, would I be happier if Desharnais and Weise played about a minute less per game and Eller and Galchenyuk a minute more than they have? Sure, but that is hardly a BIG ENOUGH difference of opinion to justify the vicious piling on I have seen lately.

I'm ok with criticizing Therrien, and I do it myself, but lately it's been a tad overblown. When someone goes too far, and another poster (jfm133) speaks up and points this out, attempting to silence the guy who brings some moderation to the debate is not a fair response. Yeah, he has repeated himself, but the MT critics repeat themselves ad nauseum and yet the moderators don't step in for that!

I for one appreciate it when I hear many different opinions.

Incidentally, I find that the "midget" tag crosses the line, and is personal and unfair. Being short is not something a person can help, nor has it stopped some players from excelling and reaching the Hall of Fame or from becoming shoo-ins to do so. Again, verbal abuse against certain individuals has become so commonplace, we are so used to hearing it, that hardly anyone even stands up for decency anymore, for fear of being branded a "DD-lover".

Criticizing DD's lack of production is fair game, disparagingly calling him a "midget" is not. I'm sure there are actual midgets out there who are not too amused to see this crap. And before anybody trots out the fact that they like Gallagher, think about how much that sounds like "I'm not against short people, some of my best friends are midgets".

Do you think you could at least state that we should refrain from using that term for Desharnais, and thus discourage others from doing so as well?

Two years ago you were saying how Galchenyuk at the wing was going to permit him to play around 18min per game and develop his offensive game.
4 years into it and he's still not getting that ice time and he's on the same scoring pace as he was as a rookie.
You were wrong.
And the fact he's still not even beating out DD is completely ridiculous. He shouldn't be on par with DD, he should be playing way more than him, but no, with Therrien, DD plays more. Absolutely ridiculous.

Management FINALLY decides to move him to center. Who do they surround him with?? A player who shouldn't play wing, and a player who couldn't play 20 games before being kicked out of the NHL. Bravo. Solid planning. I'm so shocked Galchenyuk didn't turn that line into a top offensive one..
You say he was on the ice for a ton of goals against. Goal differential is more important, in Jan-Feb, Galch was a -8, DD was a -7.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Weise is 8th on the team among forwards in minutes/game. In other words, smack in the middle of the third line.

There isn't a team in the league that doesn't occasionally play a third liner in the Top 6 or on the fourth line. Both have happened to Weise.

Nothing that unusual, just that we probably aren't watching other teams much.

Bottom line: 8th is 8th. The sky is not falling.

The guy is not totally wrong.

The other night, when Galchenyuk made the turnover that led to the 5th goal by Buffalo, check out the gameday thread. Critic after critic levelled abuse on Therrien for what they THOUGHT he was going to do, which was bench Galch for the rest of the game. When he put him right back on the ice next shift, and then on the PP, and the kid scored a goal to atone for his mistake, only ONE person even acknowledged the confidence the coach showed in his young player.

No one else felt the need to man up, because piling on the coach is the trendy thing to do now.

Believe me, Therrien has his faults, and I myself think the team would be advised to make a change, but overdoing the crap-spewing is embarrassing.

Galchenyuk was moved to the wing for two reasons:

First, he was on the ice for WAYYYY too many goals against during a losing stretch. This was over a 4 week period, and not just a statistical fluctuation.

Second, Lars Eller was not working out as well as hoped as a winger. He has been much better at C, in fact should be in our top 6, as you and I have both been saying for a couple of years. At C, at least Eller has a chance to shine more.

Using Galchenyuk at wing is perhaps something which some folks do not agree with, but the idea came to his Junior coaches and the US Junior Team coaches long before Therrien thought of it. Maybe, just maybe, despite the fact that the fans desperately want Galchenyuk to develop into the next Guy Lafleur (but who plays C), he is more like Damphousse and Stamkos and other who can play either C or wing and it is no big deal.

Saying that Galch is "second fiddle" to DD, you would think that he plays A LOT LESS, but the difference is 25 seconds per game! On the PP, Galch even plays more than DD. He is third in minutes played on the PP this year.

Reading posters here, you would think Dale Weise plays more than Galch on the PP or overall, and of course it is not true. Weise plays less minutes per game than Eller and even Fleischmann. Weise is 8th in minutes/game, seventh if we eliminate Fleischmann who has been in the stands lately.

Now, would I be happier if Desharnais and Weise played about a minute less per game and Eller and Galchenyuk a minute more than they have? Sure, but that is hardly a BIG ENOUGH difference of opinion to justify the vicious piling on I have seen lately.

I'm ok with criticizing Therrien, and I do it myself, but lately it's been a tad overblown. When someone goes too far, and another poster (jfm133) speaks up and points this out, attempting to silence the guy who brings some moderation to the debate is not a fair response. Yeah, he has repeated himself, but the MT critics repeat themselves ad nauseum and yet the moderators don't step in for that!

I for one appreciate it when I hear many different opinions.

Incidentally, I find that the "midget" tag crosses the line, and is personal and unfair. Being short is not something a person can help, nor has it stopped some players from excelling and reaching the Hall of Fame or from becoming shoo-ins to do so. Again, verbal abuse against certain individuals has become so commonplace, we are so used to hearing it, that hardly anyone even stands up for decency anymore, for fear of being branded a "DD-lover".

Criticizing DD's lack of production is fair game, disparagingly calling him a "midget" is not. I'm sure there are actual midgets out there who are not too amused to see this crap. And before anybody trots out the fact that they like Gallagher, think about how much that sounds like "I'm not against short people, some of my best friends are midgets".

Do you think you could at least state that we should refrain from using that term for Desharnais, and thus discourage others from doing so as well?

Wow, I didn't realize that jeopardizing the tank by scoring a beautiful shootout goal was going to cause a hustler like Paul Byron to attract criticism too!

With all of this, you'll have to refresh my memory on what parts of Therrien's coaching approach you actually disagree with.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Nah, sorry. That's stability in mediocrity. Mind you...I do prefer Byron over Flynn. BIG TIME. But this freakin team is really buidling from their bottom 6 to the top 6? Really? We gave a 2-year contract to Flynn for the reason you mentioned. And a 3-year contract to Mitchell too. Mitchell...okay, good faceoff guy. 3-years?. 1 year too much for me but hey it's fine I guess. But Flynn? That reminded me of the Gainey days when the signings of Garth Murray and Aaron Downey were a priority.....How many teams will be settled in their bottom 6 and yet....will have to find probably 3 players to fill up their top 6?

The point was never to say how bad those guys are. Actually, the EASY answer would be to drool and love Byron. And I like him very much. But if a team wants to overpay and give me a 2nd round pick....you really wouldn't do it?

Yes, I would take a second rounder for Byron after calling him to apologize and telling him I want him back. But no one is offering a 2nd rounder for him, so let's not dream.

And you actually made my point for me. We tried lots of bottom six or bottom pairing guys. I have no special loyalty to most of them - not Flynn, DSP, Gilbert, Fleischmann, Scott, Bartley or even Mitchell who is a hometown boy I might wish we had a spot for. And I am also willing to trade Desharnais, Markov and Pateryn. So no, I don't believe in locking in mediocrity.

But I'm not interested in trading the TWO guys who hustled and produced more than expected - Weise or Byron - unless there is a very strong offer that can't reasonably be refused, or if they have said they don't want to return. Actually three, as I think Barberio has earned another contract too.

 

[Michelangelo]

I've been working abroad the last 10 years and I told my boss this week that I would quit sometime this year and settled down here in Montreal. There are things that money simply can't buy.

EDIT: oh and I won't ever find a job that pays as much as I'm getting paid right now.

Is the average career length in your domain of profession 5.5 years?

 

[GREMLIN]

The point was never to say how bad those guys are. Actually, the EASY answer would be to drool and love Byron. And I like him very much. But if a team wants to overpay and give me a 2nd round pick....you really wouldn't do it?

For a 2nd rounder I'd be absolutely shocked if MB wouldn't do it, the thing is teams are probably offering a 5th...not the end of the world to stick to a NHLer you like rather than go for a pick that doesn't even have a 10% shot at becoming something.

We should wait and see how MB handles the deadline before asking for his head.

 

[417]

I doubt that this affects GMs.

I thought so too....until I actually saw what Winnik got traded for

 

[OpenIceHit]

Is the average career length in your domain of profession 5.5 years?

Good point. But if he and his familly really love it here and want to stay here for the next 4 or 5 years, he could sign 10M/5y insead of 10M/4y somewhere they know they won't like. But yes, he definately should test the market.

 

[BaseballCoach]

With all of this, you'll have to refresh my memory on what parts of Therrien's coaching approach you actually disagree with.

I thought he messed up the lines when Gallagher went down. Instead of just picking the best of Carr/Ghetto/Holloway and slotting them temporarily in the top 6, he blew everything up while we were winning. Mistake.

I also think he has played Markov way too many minutes the past two years.

I don't agree with his criticism of Carr for being "inconsistent".

I disagree with how quickly he pulled the plug on Galch at C last year.

I was furious when he threw Eller and Sekac under the bus when asked why they never take shootouts. Very unprofessional!

I disagree with how he criticizes our goaltending when in fact Condon does a good job most of the time, and he is being hung out to dry on many nights, and suffers from lack of scoring on others.

I think he waited too long to realize that the season was slipping away and should have restored the lines that were working before everyone's confidence was shot.

And I can't fathom why he suddenly stopped using Barberio for the slug Pateryn.

Is that enough?