D David Reinbacher - EHC Kloten, NL (2023, 5th, MTL)

[Steve Kournianos]

I think labelling drafting Reinbacher at 5 or 6 as ''risky'' doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm almost certain he's going to play, and he has the make up of a guy who can have a big impact.

They’re all going to play. They all have the makeup of having a big impact. Sale, Carlsson, Michkov, and Dvorsky all played against men and did well or tore it up.

Reinbacher would be a need pick in the top five not BPA. That’s why it’s a bigger risk, plus his consensus ranking is in the 9-15 range and CSB ranked him fifth in Europe, which puts him in the 9-15 range overall.

 

[NotProkofievian]

They’re all going to play. They all have the makeup of having a big impact. Sale, Carlsson, Michkov, and Dvorsky all played against men and did well or tore it up.

Reinbacher would be a need pick in the top five not BPA. That’s why it’s a bigger risk, plus his consensus ranking is in the 9-15 range and CSB ranked him fifth in Europe, which puts him in the 9-15 range overall.

No, they're not necessarily all going to play, that's being cavalier. But Reinbacher would have to develop negatively to bust. So then the question is what are we really looking at?

Here's just some basic facts. Dvorsky's production is weaker as a forward than Reinbacher's is as a defenseman. 22 points in 46 NLA games is better than 14 in 38 Allsvenskan. I don't make the rules, it is what it is. Another fact, Dvorsky was healthy scratched in the playoffs, whereas Reinbacher was very much not. Reinbacher is bigger than Dvorsky, and a better skater, he's playing in the WCs and doing well. This is after the best NLA draft year by a defenseman ever, and one that compares well with Roman Josi's post draft season statistically.

All this is not to say that Dvorsky is a bad prospect, but there is far too much going for Reinbacher to say that David is risky and Dalibor isn't. Michkov and Carlsson are a different story. Sale will slip, IMO.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I agree Reinbacher most likely won't go top5. The rest is speculation though. You didn't mention Carlsson but many believe he's even an option for the Ducks at 2. There's no consensus top5 pick behind Bedard, Fantilli who's mostly consensus nr.2 and (mostly) Carlsson.

For example, McKenzie has Dvorsky at 6 and Benson at 8 on his latest top12 list. In fact, hardly anybody has Dvorsky in the top5. Cosentino has him all the way down at 11 on his latest list.

So there's a fair chance the top3 will go first but then ~4-20 a lot can happen. Some have better cards than others to go early but I see it as wide open. I don't think the skill/upside/talent gaps between those guys are huge by any means. Well, talentwise and in a different world, Michkov would probably be a clear cut top5 pick but in this world he's a wild card as well.

I didn’t mention Carlsson because he’s a top-4 lock. As is Fantilli. Michkov is all political but he’s generational and clearly BPA over Reinbacher. Benson is clearly BPA over Reinbacher — he just toyed with Seattle in the playoffs and was the best WHL player after Bedard.

The only reason why Reinbacher is being mentioned as a top-5 pick for the first time all year is because the media got bored keeping the same ranking and are speculating for clicks. They do this every year and people buy it. They’re comparing him to Seider because he’s a righty Euro in a men’s league. Styles are different. Button just put ASP in the top-5 because he just watched him in a tournament. So naturally, people will buy into the idea of drafting a defenseman top-5 in arguably the best forward class of all-time. Literally in draft history.

Reinbacher is very good. But he’s not BPA at 3-5. There’s no justification. He doesn’t have the resume outside of being the top rookie dman in Switzerland. And his WC us nowhere near what Power’s was two years ago.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I didn’t mention Carlsson because he’s a top-4 lock. As is Fantilli. Michkov is all political but he’s generational and clearly BPA over Reinbacher. Benson is clearly BPA over Reinbacher — he just toyed with Seattle in the playoffs and was the best WHL player after Bedard.

The only reason why Reinbacher is being mentioned as a top-5 pick for the first time all year is because the media got bored keeping the same ranking and are speculating for clicks. They do this every year and people buy it. They’re comparing him to Seider because he’s a righty Euro in a men’s league. Styles are different. Button just put ASP in the top-5 because he just watched him in a tournament. So naturally, people will buy into the idea of drafting a defenseman top-5 in arguably the best forward class of all-time. Literally in draft history.

Reinbacher is very good. But he’s not BPA at 3-5. There’s no justification. He doesn’t have the resume outside of being the top rookie dman in Switzerland. And his WC us nowhere near what Power’s was two years ago.

Top 5 is crazy talk…haven’t seen anyone really put him much higher than 8 though.

 

[Hinterland]

I didn’t mention Carlsson because he’s a top-4 lock. As is Fantilli. Michkov is all political but he’s generational and clearly BPA over Reinbacher. Benson is clearly BPA over Reinbacher — he just toyed with Seattle in the playoffs and was the best WHL player after Bedard.

The only reason why Reinbacher is being mentioned as a top-5 pick for the first time all year is because the media got bored keeping the same ranking and are speculating for clicks. They do this every year and people buy it. They’re comparing him to Seider because he’s a righty Euro in a men’s league. Styles are different. Button just put ASP in the top-5 because he just watched him in a tournament. So naturally, people will buy into the idea of drafting a defenseman top-5 in arguably the best forward class of all-time. Literally in draft history.

Reinbacher is very good. But he’s not BPA at 3-5. There’s no justification. He doesn’t have the resume outside of being the top rookie dman in Switzerland. And his WC us nowhere near what Power’s was two years ago.

He's not just any rookie. Reinbacher is by far the best defenseman ever drafted out of Switzerland and one of the best ever drafted out of Europe. His draft season was special. Like I said, among active European NHL defenders only comparable to Dahlin's. That says nothing about potential as I stated myself many times...still...he's not as far away as you made it sound like from many of the names you mentioned.

I agree he's very different from Seider stylewise but he's much better than Seider was at the draft. Also, don't read too much into his WC...up until a couple of days ahead of the tournament he was questionable to even take part so he only played limited minutes and most likely wasn't close from 100% when he got the worst of a massive Sandin old school hipcheck.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

No, they're not necessarily all going to play, that's being cavalier. But Reinbacher would have to develop negatively to bust. So then the question is what are we really looking at?

Here's just some basic facts. Dvorsky's production is weaker as a forward than Reinbacher's is as a defenseman. 22 points in 46 NLA games is better than 14 in 38 Allsvenskan. I don't make the rules, it is what it is. Another fact, Dvorsky was healthy scratched in the playoffs, whereas Reinbacher was very much not. Reinbacher is bigger than Dvorsky, and a better skater, he's playing in the WCs and doing well. This is after the best NLA draft year by a defenseman ever, and one that compares well with Roman Josi's post draft season statistically.

All this is not to say that Dvorsky is a bad prospect, but there is far too much going for Reinbacher to say that David is risky and Dalibor isn't. Michkov and Carlsson are a different story. Sale will slip, IMO.

There are only three top-5 forwards since 2015 who aren’t legit point producers or on the cusp of becoming one — Puljujarvi, Patrick, and Turcotte — and two are for major injury problems.

It’s just a historical fact that forwards taken top-5 hit bigger than defensemen.

 

[NotProkofievian]

There are only three top-5 forwards since 2015 who aren’t legit point producers or on the cusp of becoming one — Puljujarvi, Patrick, and Turcotte — and two are for major injury problems.

It’s just a historical fact that forwards taken top-5 hit bigger than defensemen.

I find this claim debatable, but I also don't think it addresses the specific comparison that I made in my post. Why should I prefer Dvorsky to Reinbacher? Why is Reinbacher riskier than Dvorsky?

 

[Steve Kournianos]

No, they're not necessarily all going to play, that's being cavalier. But Reinbacher would have to develop negatively to bust. So then the question is what are we really looking at?

Here's just some basic facts. Dvorsky's production is weaker as a forward than Reinbacher's is as a defenseman. 22 points in 46 NLA games is better than 14 in 38 Allsvenskan. I don't make the rules, it is what it is. Another fact, Dvorsky was healthy scratched in the playoffs, whereas Reinbacher was very much not. Reinbacher is bigger than Dvorsky, and a better skater, he's playing in the WCs and doing well. This is after the best NLA draft year by a defenseman ever, and one that compares well with Roman Josi's post draft season statistically.

All this is not to say that Dvorsky is a bad prospect, but there is far too much going for Reinbacher to say that David is risky and Dalibor isn't. Michkov and Carlsson are a different story. Sale will slip, IMO.

Dvorsky’s AIK production is in line with Forberg’s and Bratt’s.

Also, Dvorsky has manhandled major tournaments for two years. Reinbacher has not.

I find this claim debatable, but I also don't think it addresses the specific comparison that I made in my post. Why should I prefer Dvorsky to Reinbacher? Why is Reinbacher riskier than Dvorsky?

HockeyDb and Hockey Reference says it’s not.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

He's not just any rookie. Reinbacher is by far the best defenseman ever drafted out of Switzerland and one of the best ever drafted out of Europe. His draft season was special. Like I said, among active European NHL defenders only comparable to Dahlin's. That says nothing about potential as I stated myself many times...still...he's not as far away as you made it sound like from many of the names you mentioned.

I agree he's very different from Seider stylewise but he's much better than Seider was at the draft. Also, don't read too much into his WC...up until a couple of days ahead of the tournament he was questionable to even take part so he only played limited minutes and most likely wasn't close from 100% when he got the worst of a massive Sandin old school hipcheck.

I see it, but I think Reinbacher needs to do more. He wasn’t dominant in the NLA. He was a steady top-four on one of the league’s worst defensive teams who were beaten badly in the first round. Don’t know why he’s being made out to be Superman. I know Seider’s D1A WJC was dominant and his DEL playoffs for the league’s best team were very impressive, so there was some justification to taking him ahead of Zegras, Boldy, Cozens etc.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I didn’t mention Carlsson because he’s a top-4 lock. As is Fantilli. Michkov is all political but he’s generational and clearly BPA over Reinbacher. Benson is clearly BPA over Reinbacher — he just toyed with Seattle in the playoffs and was the best WHL player after Bedard.

The only reason why Reinbacher is being mentioned as a top-5 pick for the first time all year is because the media got bored keeping the same ranking and are speculating for clicks. They do this every year and people buy it. They’re comparing him to Seider because he’s a righty Euro in a men’s league. Styles are different. Button just put ASP in the top-5 because he just watched him in a tournament. So naturally, people will buy into the idea of drafting a defenseman top-5 in arguably the best forward class of all-time. Literally in draft history.

Reinbacher is very good. But he’s not BPA at 3-5. There’s no justification. He doesn’t have the resume outside of being the top rookie dman in Switzerland. And his WC us nowhere near what Power’s was two years ago.

How did Benson toy with Seattle in the playoffs?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Dvorsky’s AIK production is in line with Forberg’s and Bratt’s.

Also, Dvorsky has manhandled major tournaments for two years. Reinbacher has not.

It's also in line with Jacob de la Rose's and significantly worse than Filip Hållander's and Jacob Olofsson's. I'm not saying that it's impossible that he will turn out to be a great scorer in the NHL, but we're talking about risk. Again, his production is worse than Reinbachers, without accounting for position and league quality, and if you account for those it's a huge gap.

So we're left with the international performances. I don't mind someone preferring Dvorsky over Reinbacher for what he's done with the U18 national team. But that's the whole argument. I don't think it supports the conclusion that Reinbacher is riskier than Dvorsky.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Dvorsky’s AIK production is in line with Forberg’s and Bratt’s.

Also, Dvorsky has manhandled major tournaments for two years. Reinbacher has not.



HockeyDb and Hockey Reference says it’s not.

Reinbacher has played very well internationally, it’s not his fault he plays for one of the weakest teams to ever compete in the top division the past 2 years, so his numbers don’t look as impressive - and even then, he was clearly leading the charge for those Austria teams from the backend.

At the WJC in December for example - when he was on the ice, it was when Austria got most of their scoring chances - when he got off they were trying to survive.

Even at the Summer WJC, he was making a difference for Austria, where he was one of only a few players on that team that could generate any sort of offensive pressure.

So saying Reinbacher hasn’t played well simply isn‘t true.

 

[DatDude44]

It's also in line with Jacob de la Rose's and significantly worse than Filip Hållander's and Jacob Olofsson's. I'm not saying that it's impossible that he will turn out to be a great scorer in the NHL, but we're talking about risk. Again, his production is worse than Reinbachers, without accounting for position and league quality, and if you account for those it's a huge gap.

So we're left with the international performances. I don't mind someone preferring Dvorsky over Reinbacher for what he's done with the U18 national team. But that's the whole argument. I don't think it supports the conclusion that Reinbacher is riskier than Dvorsky.

Dvorsky, is a much riskier bet than reinbacher...not sure why that guy is merely stat watching and coming up with these conclusions.

Reinbacher is as guaranteed to be a top 4 D as guaranteed gets in the draft, the "risk" associated is does he have the makeup of a true #1 or not. But either way, 6'3 D that skate like him and handle the puck like him are extremely rare. Even if he's not a #1, he'll be a quality minute muncher in a top 4.

Whereas Dvorsky, should be a top 6 fwd in the NHL someday, but is at C or W and imo his talent level is closer to that of a quality 2nd liner. I like Dvorsky alot(wouldn't mind him at 10 for my blues), but it's reinbacher for me all day and twice on sunday.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

How did Benson toy with Seattle in the playoffs?

Did you watch the series?

 

[Hinterland]

I see it, but I think Reinbacher needs to do more. He wasn’t dominant in the NLA. He was a steady top-four on one of the league’s worst defensive teams who were beaten badly in the first round. Don’t know why he’s being made out to be Superman. I know Seider’s D1A WJC was dominant and his DEL playoffs for the league’s best team were very impressive, so there was some justification to taking him ahead of Zegras, Boldy, Cozens etc.

He wasn't top4, he was 2nd in TOI among Kloten's defensemen and he was dominant. He got very limited 2nd PP time but 5vs5 he was the most dominant defenseman leaguewide. Almost all of his points he scored at even strength and his primary assist ratio is unique. He was also one of just two plus players among regulars of his team...a team that just got promoted and played vs the biggest powerhouse in European hockey. Kloten has barely any money while for Bern money never remotely matters. Kloten never had a chance and you can't possibly fault Reinbacher for this.

DEL isn't bad but nowhere near NL levelwise. Also, Seider played on a title winning team, not a bad one that just got promoted and facing teams spending dozens of millions more every season.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Dvorsky, is a much riskier bet than reinbacher...not sure why that guy is merely stat watching and coming up with these conclusions.

Reinbacher is as guaranteed to be a top 4 D as guaranteed gets in the draft, the "risk" associated is does he have the makeup of a true #1 or not. But either way, 6'3 D that skate like him and handle the puck like him are extremely rare. Even if he's not a #1, he'll be a quality minute muncher in a top 4.

Whereas Dvorsky, should be a top 6 fwd in the NHL someday, but is at C or W and imo his talent level is closer to that of a quality 2nd liner. I like Dvorsky alot(wouldn't mind him at 10 for my blues), but it's reinbacher for me all day and twice on sunday.

It’s a weak defense class. One of the weakest ever, at least on paper and based off league/tourney play. He’s being propped up for lack of competition. Maybe he’s top-5 caliber in most draft years but certainly not this one.

 

[DatDude44]

He wasn't top4, he was 2nd in TOI among Kloten's defensemen and he was dominant. He got very limited 2nd PP time but 5vs5 he was the most dominant defenseman leaguewide. Almost all of his points he scored at even strength and his primary assist ratio is unique. He was also one of just two plus players among regulars of his team...a team that just got promoted and played vs the biggest powerhouse in European hockey. Kloten has barely any money while for Bern money never remotely matters. Kloten never had a chance and you can't possibly fault Reinbacher for this.

DEL isn't bad but nowhere near NL levelwise. Also, Seider played on a title winning team, not a bad one that just got promoted and facing teams spending dozens of millions more every season.

Nope it's reinbachers fault, he should've been a millionaire by now and devoted all of his funding to the team, why is he not an owner? does he not care?

 

[EbonyRaptor]

How did Benson toy with Seattle in the playoffs?

I think the word "toy" is not appropriate but an argument could be made he was the best player in the series. He was up against a better team and a goalie playing very well.

 

[DatDude44]

It’s a weak defense class. One of the weakest ever, at least on paper and based off league/tourney play. He’s being propped up for lack of competition. Maybe he’s top-5 caliber in most draft years but certainly not this one.

He's being propped up because he's good. The other D in the class don't effect how good he is at hockey. Maybe he'd be 3rd best in another year a la Dobson, but that doesn't change how good of a player he is and where he should be ranked relative to the entire draft. Your sprinting to the podium if he falls below 8 imo

 

[Hinterland]

Dvorsky’s AIK production is in line with Forberg’s and Bratt’s.

Also, Dvorsky has manhandled major tournaments for two years. Reinbacher has not.



HockeyDb and Hockey Reference says it’s not.

You mean the ones he wasn't even invited to by the glorious Austrian federation? Or the ones he did get to play alongside some random bums vs the worlds fellow top prospects?

Reinbacher can do a lot of things but with his style he's kinda depending on teammates with at least adequate puck handling and strength on the puck. He's a defenseman so he can't just outscore the worlds top teams on his own. Then he's also not a puck hog like for example Seider. Reinbacher loves to make quick plays. He's great at tape to tape passes or at finding teammates with stretch passes. He also loves to join the rush and crash the net. For this he needs adequate teammates. Something that you don't tend to get if you're Austrian. So Reinbacher can't do much more than playing clean defense and keep it simple. Trying to do more than this would be kinda pointless if your teammates can't keep up anyway. This WC would have been a bit more interesting but unfortunately health let him down.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

He wasn't top4, he was 2nd in TOI among Kloten's defensemen and he was dominant. He got very limited 2nd PP time but 5vs5 he was the most dominant defenseman leaguewide. Almost all of his points he scored at even strength and his primary assist ratio is unique. He was also one of just two plus players among regulars of his team...a team that just got promoted and played vs the biggest powerhouse in European hockey. Kloten has barely any money while for Bern money never remotely matters. Kloten never had a chance and you can't possibly fault Reinbacher for this.

DEL isn't bad but nowhere near NL levelwise. Also, Seider played on a title winning team, not a bad one that just got promoted and facing teams spending dozens of millions more every season.

Kloten didn’t have a real top pairing. Kellenberger-Reinbacher was deployed almost equally to whomever Ekestahl-Jonsson was paired with. He was their No. 1 and played more but wasn’t paired with Reinbacher. That’s why I said he’s top four.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Did you watch the series?

Yes. He was good, but couldn't get to the middle in my viewings. Still managed to create from the outside a la Berggren, but as a habs fan he didn't show me what I want from this pick.

 

[Hinterland]

Kloten didn’t have a real top pairing. Kellenberger-Reinbacher was deployed almost equally to whomever Ekestahl-Jonsson was paired with. He was their No. 1 and played more but wasn’t paired with Reinbacher. That’s why I said he’s top four.

Yeah. That Kellenberger/Reinbacher pairing got the toughest assignments...yet still they were the lone plus players on the roster.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Yes. He was good, but couldn't get to the middle in my viewings. Still managed to create from the outside a la Berggren, but as a habs fan he didn't show me what I want from this pick.

?????? Couldn’t get to the inside???? That’s his bread and butter upon entries. I counted four in the first two periods of Game 5 alone. Literally came down LW and on a dime sliced into the high slot. That’s why I made my first draft-related tweet in weeks. He’s been a fearless inside player all season.

 

[NotProkofievian]

?????? Couldn’t get to the inside???? That’s his bread and butter upon entries. I counted four in the first two periods of Game 5 alone. Literally came down LW and on a dime sliced into the high slot. That’s why I made my first draft-related tweet in weeks. He’s been a fearless inside player all season.

The closest he came when I was watching was a ''Cruyff turn'' to cause an overbackcheck. Still didn't get into the box. Maybe you have some video because I don't remember this. To be clear, what I'm talking about is getting into the box, beating the first guy clean for a scoring chance. Not an overbackcheck, or an oddman rush.