D Cale Makar (2017, 4th, COL) Part 2
- Thread starter Caser
- Start date
What a terrible post, making the rest of us newfies look dumb.
That last sentence is all kinds of dumb. No prospect ever has shown the ability to be a great player in the NHL until he actually plays in the NHL. Makar is doing everything he needs to in college to suggest he will be a very good player in the NHL. And while yes Petterson is lighting it up in the NHL now it's far, far to early to be calling him the better prospect or the best prospect in the draft or any of that. These kids are 20 years old.
This really is an illogical statement, just because "player x" is the best of a certain league doesn't really mean anything of absolute. Benjamin Breault was the best player in the Australian Ice Hockey League last year...
First off, USHL and BCHL is so much different than the AJHL and NAHL it isn't even close.
You're right that regardless of a league, some players have the x-factor you need in a prospect. However, that doesn't mean you still don't be wary of people from bad leagues. Just because Makar is a success story from the AJHL doesn't mean **** when there were probably 100 Makars' who failed before him. It's the same situation presented with small players, for every Gaudreau or Zuc who make the NHL, there are probably another twenty who failed and became AHL and ECHL journeymen.
Last edited:
Tasty Biscuits
with fancy sauce
Makar is so legit. COL is gonna be in such good shape moving forward adding him and whatever top fwd prospect they get at the draft to their team next year.
returnofthemack29
Registered User
- Feb 20, 2015
- 1,305
- 693
You’re just trying to justify your incorrect previous assessment of Makar because he’s proving you wrong. Makar’s Bandits (AJHL) team was better than Jost’s Vees (BCHL) team. Those teams even play against each other every year. The BCHL and AJHL are virtually identical, as far as competition level goes. In today’s age though with the internet/travel so easily accessible, if you can play, it doesn’t matter where and against who...the scouts will find you.
I have no problem being wrong, I said in the past I hope I am wrong about Makar (you can search my post history if you want). I am glad that he's proving me wrong for my own sake because I want the Avs to do good, but that still doesn't justify what I am trying to say. You're looking at it as an indiviudal player perspective in terms of "Makar", I am looking at it as a scouting perspective in terms of the league. Additionally, the junior A argument isn't very valid considering how much talent changes year by year. Vees probably destroy this versions of the Bandits this year, Bandits probably be better next year, and unknown after that. Also, it isn't like Makar's Bandit team won the Junior A RBC title either. They lost to a non-elite prospect team in the Cobourg Cougars.
Think about if another player five years from now posted stats similar to Makar in the same league, that doesn't mean he will have the same impact of Cale long term because they're two different individuals who have two different characteristics and traits of everything. I think what makes Makar a legitimate prospect now is because of the "x or it factor" that the other poster mentioned, something that majority of the players outside of Makar do not possess.
returnofthemack29
Registered User
- Feb 20, 2015
- 1,305
- 693
Well, what I’m trying to say is that scouts scout the players, not the leagues. The league in which the player plays shouldn’t automatically discount them from being a top prospect. Before the draft we heard rumors from prominent insiders about how NJ wanted to trade down to pick Makar and Vancouver wanted to trade up to get him. Bob McKenzie also stated that one of the scouts that he polled before the draft had him as the number one player in the draft. Many scouts also stated that Makar had the highest potential of any player in the draft and drew Karlsson comparisons.
All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t use the league that he played in as your justification for being wrong about him because the majority of scouts weren’t.
Last edited:
Breakers
Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
"Hard to imagine a scenario where he doesnt win"
ummmm this guy Chris Peters is on something.
Tralfamadore
Don't Panic.
- Sep 25, 2011
- 9,634
- 8,968
Who should win the award over Makar in your opinion?
newfy
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2010
- 15,293
- 9,407
No its not all kinds of dumb. The post I replied too was talking about how Makar is proving its dumb when people question players out of tier 2 junior leagues. Youre proving my point though, youre right no prospect has proven theyre great in the NHL until they do. I have no issue with saying Makar is a top prospect, I have issue with someone using him as proof that second tier junior A teams shouldnt be questioned come draft time. Makar has done nothing in the NHL yet, while the rest of that top 5 has. Makar isnt proof yet about AJHL being able to produce great NHLers, its way too premature to say that.
For the record I've never said that Makar isnt going to be a great player, just that A) hes not proof of a good NHLer and B) hes behind most of the guys drafted around him which MIGHT be proof drafting that high from the more highly regarded leagues is worth it.
Its far too early to call Pettersson the better prospect? Really? Hes over a point per game in the NHL, going to score 30 something goals. If you think its too early to call Pettersson a better prospect at this point I think youre the one making newfies look dumb. If you cant say EP is a better prospect than youre too biased to be in this conversation
I get what you're saying, if a good player is actually good he will eventually get noticed and picked high. However, the problem is that we never really had a top calibre player stay in a pretty bad league before and if they did it was super rare and happened majority of time in Europe. Majority of the top NCAA-bound players either headed to the BCHL and USHL before going next year to the NCAA. Makar didn't do that and majority of the time looked like he was playing against teens who just started playing hockey in the AJHL. Was it because Makar was a truly talented? Or was it because the talent in AJHL is super top heavy? In hindsight you can say that both aspects are correct here, Makar was actually talented however the league isn't going to win scouts over either.
So we have two aspects to consider, first, he chose a nontraditional path meaning that I think people deserved to be wary of him (this doesn't mean I am exempt). Second, just because he came from the AJHL doesn't mean the next talented defender from the AJHL will have Cale Makar talent. You can actually label Cale Makar closer to Anze Kopitar than to any other prospect. A nontraditional prospect who might be just one generational player going the route they did. I am not saying that Makar is generational in terms of talent because he isn't, but more generational in terms of the route. Makar didn't go to a top NCAA school either, so everything he did was really unorthodox.
Last edited:
Equally as many teams/scouts were worried about his defensive abilities and how him lighting up a bad league would translate. Teams were excited about his immense upside, it doesn't mean they didn't also have justifiable concerns.
You're embarrassing yourself thinking you're explaining to @S E P H how scouting works.
We're all happy he looks like he's panning out but there were legit concerns about how he projected against stronger competition. It's nothing to get upset about.
I wouldn't say he's embarrassing himself, he's entitled to an opinion like I am and he's just justifying it. Nothing wrong in that Barklez, if there is anything I would consider "wrong", it's that ReturnoftheMack (or other Av fans) wouldn't even be in this thread if Makar wasn't Avs property.
Breakers
Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
Im just saying. To say he can't imagine a scenario where he doesnt win is ridiculous.
Yes he is a favorite could very well win it and he has a huge media blitz in his favor which other players dont have, but he makes it sound like no one else is even in the field.
Seniors and Juniors are always favored to the committee. Out of the last 11 winners 10 have been upperclassman (Jr & Sr)
the only underclassman to win recently was Eichel who had insane HYPE around him.
Adam Fox is a junior and has 10 more points than anyone else on his team as a d-man
Ryan Kuffman is a senior and turned down pro offers to stay at Princeton
Even Shortridge the Junior goalie for quinnipiac has record breaking statistics for a goaltender .946 sv% 1.40 GAA are insane
Last edited:
That's not what I said at all and not what you originally said. You suggested Makat could be the 5th ot 6th best player from the 2017 draft. That's just not accurate at all and suggesting Pettersson will be the better player after just one year when these kids are all just 20 years old is pure ignorance. Who knows what level these kids will be at in 4 or 5 years from now.
newfy
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2010
- 15,293
- 9,407
He could be worse than the 6th best player, who knows he might be better than that as well. That entire top 5 besides him is playing and making an impact in the NHL right now though, with the 6th overall being a comparable prospect. So tell me how this proves anything about the AJHL producing NHLers? Like the post I was replying to was implying. Makar hasnt proven the AJHL has produced NHLers, its produced one really good prospect at this point. How he translates is a whole other discussion.
Pettersson is definitely ahead of him right now. Sure, Makar could end up better but right now it isnt looking good. Pettersson is leading an NHL in points and goals by 8 points with second place having played 11 more games. If you cant see Pettersson as ahead right now youre not worth even having a discussion with. Makar is a very good prospect but he isnt Pettersson and he hasnt proven the AJHL can do anything yet
Sorry, mine was sarcasm too, was late and forgot to add the /s,
I agree with your point.
avsfan09
Registered User
I think what most are saying is that it's far too early to be evaluating this draft. Makar has definitely show alot of transferable skills and answered alot of questions about how he'd perform at higher levels.
avsfan09
Registered User
Minnesota HS has had a lot of history prior to Mittelstadt though, that league probably has(d) more pros come from it (and perhaps drafted from it) than AJHL. It's an exception for me IMO.
avsfan09
Registered User
Fair enough. I just think that he was drafted high because of his tools similarly to Makar but got alot less flack. Granted he wasn't 4th Ov but he also wasn't ranked 1 Ov by any scouts either.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Huh? Hindsight doesn't change the fact that there were valid concerns about how his game would translate given the massive gap between the league he was drafted out of & the one he'll be playing in by the start of next season (if not sooner)...at the time.
And in case you haven't read through all of this thread; I'm an Avs fan who's thrilled to have Makar and was a big fan of his -- as well as Heiskanen's -- as a prospect because his skill & explosiveness were clearly special regardless of the league he played in, and his defensive intelligence -- when he actually did need to get the puck back -- made me have hope that we would get our version of Duncan Keith from whichever of Cale or Miro made it to #4.
His success since then has been a delight to watch, but it doesn't retroactive negate the concerns that were there with the level of play. Not because level of play can make certain advantages seem larger than they are, but mostly because youth development is a tricky art. So the longer a path that any prospect has to walk to arrive at their potential, the more chances there for something to go wrong & for them to stall.
Doesn't mean there can't be special talents in weaker leagues or that something will go wrong with a prospect with a long path's development. But the deciding factor between he & Heiskanen as a prospect (for me) was that Heiskanen was much further along in his development curve...in large part because he was getting to learn & develop in his draft year by playing against grown-ass-professionals...than Cale was his. And with the Avs luck with blueline prospects, we had reason to be risk averse when deciding between equivalent talents.
Makar thriving since being drafted doesn't mean that there weren't legitimate concerns back in his draft year.
That's just not how time works.
Last edited:
