What's your definition of prospect? Gusev is 26, IMO he's one of the best players not in the NHL, but I don't think i'd consider him a prospect at this point.
D Cale Makar (2017, 4th, COL) Part 2
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What's your definition of prospect? Gusev is 26, IMO he's one of the best players not in the NHL, but I don't think i'd consider him a prospect at this point.
You don't understand there is something in between "bust" and "1 PPG defenseman in NHL", huh?
Except, that's how someone I believed what the person I was responding to meant. I originally said Kakko, Hughes, and Lafreniere would all be valued higher because he made the point of saying he's the best prospect including ones who haven't been drafted. The best player not in the NHL is probably Gusev, although, I wouldn't classify him as a prospect.
returnofthemack29
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That's called "tilting the ice"
If he is even 70% that dominant in the NHL he will be a Norris finalist more than once.
Based on your post, I am not sure that you actually said that, but no matter.
Let's put it this way, the other prospects/players in the top-5 from the 2017 NHL draft have played in the NHL, in some cases at an exceptional level. I would put Makar behind all of the other prospects from that top-5 because they have proven it in the NHL. I am not even sure I would call Hischier, Patrick, Heiskanen, or Pettersson prospects at this point.
With Makar, he still has uncertainty until he proves it at the NHL level.
On an unrelated note, I recall that most people felt like the top-5 from the 2017 NHL draft was weaker than prior years. It will be interesting to see if that narrative holds true down the road. It already seems to be at odds with the early returns.
OldScool
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People should really pump the brakes on Makar being the next Bobby Orr. He is the best prospect not in the NHL...probably. But keep in mind he was drafted top 5 in the NHL two years ago and is 20 years old still playing college hockey so he should be dominating that level. Makar has 33gm - 13g - 27a for 40pts in NCAA. Miro Heiskanen was picked one pick before Makar in the draft and has 66gm - 10g - 18a for 28 points in the NHL at this point. Makar is on track to be a great dman but lets keep in consideration the level he is playing at vs others.
hooverdam
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I really don't see people even talking much about NHL expectations for Makar, just how he's performing as a prospect within in his league. Lambert can be a huge dillweed but he consumes more college hockey than almost anyone who covers the NHL; he called him a generational college hockey talent. Said nothing about what he'll do in the NHL.
If his talent translates, if his development goes well, then we can predict he'll be a great NHL player based on what he's done so far. But it's all speculation until he actually does it, and I don't see anyone arguing otherwise. For the same reason, I think it's stupid to compare what Heiskanen has done in the NHL. Makar isn't competing with Heiskanen. They're not in the same league. The only thing analogous about their situations is their draft. We can compare their rookie NHL seasons and see what happens.
Perratrooper
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It's hard not to get excited about a prospect like Makar with his dynamic speed. hockey IQ and game changing ability. Considering the question marks that came with the league he was drafted from, the fact that he's been able to meet and exceed expectations so far definitely make me very excited as an Avs fan. Mixing in great off the ice intangibles our need for a number one dman for the last 15 years or so makes it even harder not to get excited. In terms of comparing him to Heisken, I believe Makar has always been viewed as the more offensive of the two prospects, so if he can hit the 35-40 point mark as a rookie I think we'd all be ecstatic.
a mangy Meowth
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Sophomores don't dominate College. Makar had a WAY better season than Boeser/McAvoy did, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect him to produce right away.
OldScool
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McAvoy is better defensively IMO. Different type of player. Makar is an offensive defenseman that rarely plays much defense - he is almost a 4th winger playing D. He is ready for the new NHL and should be dressing in a few weeks so it will be interesting to see how he does.
What an absurdly awful take. Doesn’t play D? What on Earth are you on about?
Did you ever watch him play? I'm guess you don't just by your responses. Makar is not some 3rd pairing PP specialist like you're implying, he's got potential to be a true #1 franchise defenseman who can play all zones.
OldScool
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I have seen him play in person several times this season. I see him being used sparingly on defense by coaching staff. Game on the line at end of game and he is on bench if they are protecting a one goal lead. He isnt on the first PK unit is he? Erik Karlsson doesnt play solid defense either and that doenst hurt him.
cgf
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I think you've mixed Cale Makar up with someone else. His dominance against the puck excites me just as much as his potential production because of how smart he is, how slick his stick is defensively, the way his skating lets him close gaps in an instant, and his combativeness...that's why many of us Avs fans who've been tracking him use Duncan Keith as a comparison for his style of play, not the Erik Karlsson that got thrown around lazily at the draft.
The Makar you're describing is the way he looked in the AJHL because he played for a powerhouse and whenever he was on the ice, his team had the puck 95% of the time...but when he had to defend, he showed great aptitude for it. Which has been highlighted more & more at the collegiate level; to the point where this season he has been absolutely dominant against the puck. Was it perchance during his Bandit days that you saw him in person?
OldScool
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I have seen him in person in games this season and basically locked in on him because of his talent. He isnt poor defensively - his game is as offensive Karlsson type defender where he carries puck and jumps in rush and freely creates on his own. He is behind net a lot in offensive zone alot and activates a ton from the point due to his stick handling capabilities. He is not a shut down physical defender - sorry but he isnt. Coaches rarely use him to kill penalties - partly to rest him but also they have better defensive Dman on that team for that role. He is capable of breaking out puck by himself and has the speed to back that up. He is a great fit for todays offensive dman in NHL and I say is very comparable to Karlsson and his skill set. He isnt a Ryan Suter.
Do I want him on ice when protecting a one goal lead with a minute left - no. Do I want him on ice when needing a goal in last minute - yes and thats how Carvel uses him.
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Duncan Keith's and Ryan Suter's names and games are so similar it's of course very understandable you got them mixed up
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cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I never said he's a shut down physical defender...but you don't have to be when you can just win the puck back & move the action to the opposite zone before the opposition gets a chance to set up...nor did I compare him Ryan Suter. Sure he couldn't play the Derian Hatcher role for a team in the DPE, but teams have learned better ways to defend. That's why the bolded is something you're not going to get much agreement on
OldScool
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I reviewed data from a few years ago about Makar from Scout Metrics that shows his type of play compared to players in his draft class.:
Scout Metrics: The following represents the top five players in the 2017 draft class in two different categories (all numbers are from even-strength scenarios over an 11-game sample):
Net Shot Attempts
Cale Makar, D, Brooks (AJHL): 198
Nick Suzuki, C, Owen Sound (OHL): 107
Josh Norris, C, U.S. NTDP (USHL): 96
Mason Shaw, C, Medicine Hat (WHL): 95
Jonah Gadjovich, LW, Owen Sound (OHL): 94
Controlled Zone Exits
Cale Makar, D, Brooks (AJHL): 106
Conor Timmins, D, Sault Ste. Marie (OHL): 72
Ian Mitchell, D, Spruce Grove (AJHL): 58
Josh Brook, D, Moose Jaw (WHL): 58
Juuso Valimaki, D, Tri-City (WHL): 58
Thats insane that he took that many shots and carried puck with so many zone exits. He is the definition of offensive defenseman.
Scout Metrics: The following represents the top five players in the 2017 draft class in two different categories (all numbers are from even-strength scenarios over an 11-game sample):
Net Shot Attempts
Cale Makar, D, Brooks (AJHL): 198
Nick Suzuki, C, Owen Sound (OHL): 107
Josh Norris, C, U.S. NTDP (USHL): 96
Mason Shaw, C, Medicine Hat (WHL): 95
Jonah Gadjovich, LW, Owen Sound (OHL): 94
Controlled Zone Exits
Cale Makar, D, Brooks (AJHL): 106
Conor Timmins, D, Sault Ste. Marie (OHL): 72
Ian Mitchell, D, Spruce Grove (AJHL): 58
Josh Brook, D, Moose Jaw (WHL): 58
Juuso Valimaki, D, Tri-City (WHL): 58
Thats insane that he took that many shots and carried puck with so many zone exits. He is the definition of offensive defenseman.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
OldScool
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The games I watched him in person thats pretty much what I witnessed....kid is fast, like noticeably faster than anyone else on ice. Can create offense on own, etc. all the usual stuff. I was just surprised how little defensive responsibility he had and coaches gave him..and how he was used thats all. Still a stud player but a little more one dimensional than I thought.
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