CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[Yukon Joe]

Watching Atlanta piss away a third NHL Franchise is a game some BIllionaire wants to play? fine.... I guess....Watching AZ flail around after 30 years of proof there is no market in the valley? absurd and pathetic....throwing teams hither and yon for the lucrative payments from new owners? ok but it's not going to help the game long term. because blatant cash grabs look tacky and diminish brands....

The League is doing the sport, itself, and the fans a huge disservice if it chases all that cash and but still won't put teams in markets where they actually exist.... QC.

So I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but what the hell...

So let me "state my priors". I am firmly in the camp that the NHL would be a better place with a team in Quebec City. It's a small but dedicated market, it would be a team that would be bottom third of the league in revenue but not one the NHL would ever have to worry about either.

Both Atlanta and Phoenix - look if the NHL can thrive in Nashville, or Tampa - no reason it couldn't in Atlanta or Phoenix under the right circumstances. Circumstances weren't right in the past due to ownership/arena issues, but if those could be fixed - sure why not?

Ultimately though remember this is a billionaire's league, and we fans just get to watch if we're lucky. Atlanta is being talked about because there's an ownership group in place. Phoenix theoretically has an ownership group in place, but one with many doubts. Quebec City - I think the only reason it's not being talked about much is because the only ownership group doesn't have the money.

The league doesn't pick markets out of the blue because it thinks they'll be good markets. I doubt the NHL by itself would have picked SLC. I mean I'm sure SLC would be a fine market, but hardly the one top of the NHL's list. No, the reason SLC got a team is because they had an owner willing to paythe price and meet the NHL's conditions.

 

[KevFu]

Ok. Now apply that same logic to those who say that there is no money to be made from fans in Quebec City because they already all support the Habs.

Go.....

Yeah, that wasn't really directed at you per sey but rather anyone who uses that argument.

But the difference between Columbus and Ottawa vs Quebec City in this discussion is that when OTT and CBJ arrived as expansion teams, NO ONE in the market was someone who grew up watching the Blue Jackets or watching the original Senators on TV.

Whereas people aged 37+ DID grow up as Nordiques fans. Quebec would be far better off.

 

[TheLegend]

So I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but what the hell...

So let me "state my priors". I am firmly in the camp that the NHL would be a better place with a team in Quebec City. It's a small but dedicated market, it would be a team that would be bottom third of the league in revenue but not one the NHL would ever have to worry about either.

Both Atlanta and Phoenix - look if the NHL can thrive in Nashville, or Tampa - no reason it couldn't in Atlanta or Phoenix under the right circumstances. Circumstances weren't right in the past due to ownership/arena issues, but if those could be fixed - sure why not?

Ultimately though remember this is a billionaire's league, and we fans just get to watch if we're lucky. Atlanta is being talked about because there's an ownership group in place. Phoenix theoretically has an ownership group in place, but one with many doubts. Quebec City - I think the only reason it's not being talked about much is because the only ownership group doesn't have the money.

The league doesn't pick markets out of the blue because it thinks they'll be good markets. I doubt the NHL by itself would have picked SLC. I mean I'm sure SLC would be a fine market, but hardly the one top of the NHL's list. No, the reason SLC got a team is because they had an owner willing to paythe price and meet the NHL's conditions.

All Quebec City needs is another Ryan Smith.

Everything else is in place. Facility-wise they’re way ahead of SLC.

Right now SLC (2024) is like Phoenix (1995). No practice facility. Arena not totally suited to hockey. Team dropped there because of arena/politics issue in previous home….. And so on.

The only difference is an owner with some cash and lots of connections in the local political realm.

 

[Skidooboy]

So I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but what the hell...

So let me "state my priors". I am firmly in the camp that the NHL would be a better place with a team in Quebec City. It's a small but dedicated market, it would be a team that would be bottom third of the league in revenue but not one the NHL would ever have to worry about either.

Both Atlanta and Phoenix - look if the NHL can thrive in Nashville, or Tampa - no reason it couldn't in Atlanta or Phoenix under the right circumstances. Circumstances weren't right in the past due to ownership/arena issues, but if those could be fixed - sure why not?

Ultimately though remember this is a billionaire's league, and we fans just get to watch if we're lucky. Atlanta is being talked about because there's an ownership group in place. Phoenix theoretically has an ownership group in place, but one with many doubts. Quebec City - I think the only reason it's not being talked about much is because the only ownership group doesn't have the money.

The league doesn't pick markets out of the blue because it thinks they'll be good markets. I doubt the NHL by itself would have picked SLC. I mean I'm sure SLC would be a fine market, but hardly the one top of the NHL's list. No, the reason SLC got a team is because they had an owner willing to paythe price and meet the NHL's conditions.

A few points.

there is no reason to think ANY circumstances will arise that will help hockey in Phoenix. whatever and however other markets have or have done is irrelevant...
Phoenix has rejected pro hockey at every level. for 30+ years. failure after failure after failure. NHL, AHL,ECHL, etc etc etc....No fans at the games, no corporate support, no TV views, no merch sales. Back in Glendale? They couldn't get 5,000 in the barn most nights for $20 lower bowl tickets....fans won't drive 30 mins of az freeway...but TO fans and Chicago fans do the same kind of commutes......in -35C snowstorms.... but the AZ commute is "too difficult"

I looked. at one point a few years back, with the right seat sale, it was cheaper for me to fly to AZ, spend a night in a hotel, and go to a game than buy 2 lower bowl tickets in Winnipeg. and the AZ tix included food and drinks....

heck their NCAA team program is a BEAST they should be filling a barn with 10-15000 rabid fans.....they can't make the 5000 they built the tiny arena for........

QC has a very willing very rich owner who is begging for a team. PKP is a multi Billionaire. he has a market, an NHL ready arena deal in place, a tv platform to sell games on, a captive audience for French language broadcasting, and the desire.

Atlanta has folded twice...once post cap. . Nobody wants to admit it, they always come up with excuses and misdirects, BUT... There was a reason the previous Atlanta owner didn't want the team anymore....it was more lucrative to have concerts and monster truck shows than run the NHL team there.... that's it. They would have a team right now if it made money.... which it never did.

so, to sum up. there is an anti Canadian anti QC bias.. and the league is all about getting quick cash from expansion fees. the BOG is willing to shoehorn in any team south of the border regardless of market or fans or need for a quick buck from the franchise fees...
Long term I believe this will alienate core fans and dilute the brands value. and down the road...it will hurt the sport and league long term asd we watch flailing franchises implode just like in AZ.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

A few points.

there is no reason to think ANY circumstances will arise that will help hockey in Phoenix. whatever and however other markets have or have done is irrelevant...
Phoenix has rejected pro hockey at every level. for 30+ years. failure after failure after failure. NHL, AHL,ECHL, etc etc etc....No fans at the games, no corporate support, no TV views, no merch sales. Back in Glendale? They couldn't get 5,000 in the barn most nights for $20 lower bowl tickets....fans won't drive 30 mins of az freeway...but TO fans and Chicago fans do the same kind of commutes......in -35C snowstorms.... but the AZ commute is "too difficult"

I looked. at one point a few years back, with the right seat sale, it was cheaper for me to fly to AZ, spend a night in a hotel, and go to a game than buy 2 lower bowl tickets in Winnipeg. and the AZ tix included food and drinks....

heck their NCAA team program is a BEAST they should be filling a barn with 10-15000 rabid fans.....they can't make the 5000 they built the tiny arena for........

QC has a very willing very rich owner who is begging for a team. PKP is a multi Billionaire. he has a market, an NHL ready arena deal in place, a tv platform to sell games on, a captive audience for French language broadcasting, and the desire.

Atlanta has folded twice...once post cap. . Nobody wants to admit it, they always come up with excuses and misdirects, BUT... There was a reason the previous Atlanta owner didn't want the team anymore....it was more lucrative to have concerts and monster truck shows than run the NHL team there.... that's it. They would have a team right now if it made money.... which it never did.

so, to sum up. there is an anti Canadian anti QC bias.. and the league is all about getting quick cash from expansion fees. the BOG is willing to shoehorn in any team south of the border regardless of market or fans or need for a quick buck from the franchise fees...
Long term I believe this will alienate core fans and dilute the brands value. and down the road...it will hurt the sport and league long term asd we watch flailing franchises implode just like in AZ.

LOL...."excuses work for the team I want, but not others". QC got the same attendance as the Thrashers and folded just the same.

 

[Skidooboy]

LOL...."excuses work for the team I want, but not others". QC got the same attendance as the Thrashers and folded just the same.

LOL...????
CAP ERA VS PRE CAP. this is the "business of hockey forum right? Maybe you should understand that before you post.

and Atlanta? No matter what they say they sold in numbers..... NEVER MADE MONEY. EVER. which was why the owner wanted them gone...

Jets have less attendance (supposedly) than Atlanta did...and have never lost money.....see how business works?

 

[Salsero1]

A few points.

there is no reason to think ANY circumstances will arise that will help hockey in Phoenix. whatever and however other markets have or have done is irrelevant...
Phoenix has rejected pro hockey at every level. for 30+ years. failure after failure after failure. NHL, AHL,ECHL, etc etc etc....No fans at the games, no corporate support, no TV views, no merch sales. Back in Glendale? They couldn't get 5,000 in the barn most nights for $20 lower bowl tickets....fans won't drive 30 mins of az freeway...but TO fans and Chicago fans do the same kind of commutes......in -35C snowstorms.... but the AZ commute is "too difficult"

I looked. at one point a few years back, with the right seat sale, it was cheaper for me to fly to AZ, spend a night in a hotel, and go to a game than buy 2 lower bowl tickets in Winnipeg. and the AZ tix included food and drinks....

heck their NCAA team program is a BEAST they should be filling a barn with 10-15000 rabid fans.....they can't make the 5000 they built the tiny arena for........

QC has a very willing very rich owner who is begging for a team. PKP is a multi Billionaire. he has a market, an NHL ready arena deal in place, a tv platform to sell games on, a captive audience for French language broadcasting, and the desire.

Atlanta has folded twice...once post cap. . Nobody wants to admit it, they always come up with excuses and misdirects, BUT... There was a reason the previous Atlanta owner didn't want the team anymore....it was more lucrative to have concerts and monster truck shows than run the NHL team there.... that's it. They would have a team right now if it made money.... which it never did.

so, to sum up. there is an anti Canadian anti QC bias.. and the league is all about getting quick cash from expansion fees. the BOG is willing to shoehorn in any team south of the border regardless of market or fans or need for a quick buck from the franchise fees...
Long term I believe this will alienate core fans and dilute the brands value. and down the road...it will hurt the sport and league long term asd we watch flailing franchises implode just like in AZ.

If PKP wanted a team, he'd have one.

Face it, no rich guy thinks buying/owning a NHL franchise in a small village in QC is worth it.

Several guys in an accursed Southern market do.

 

[Salsero1]

LOL...????
CAP ERA VS PRE CAP. this is the "business of hockey forum right? Maybe you should understand that before you post.

and Atlanta? No matter what they say they sold in numbers..... NEVER MADE MONEY. EVER. which was why the owner wanted them gone...

Jets have less attendance (supposedly) than Atlanta did...and have never lost money.....see how business works?

What a you are. Maybe you should understand what happened in Atlanta before you flap your gums.

The owners didn't want the team to be successful.

 

[dj4aces]

Before moving the Nordiques were drawing near 15,000 average per season.
they had a pretty loyal and rabid fan base. so the market was there even when "served by another team".

Yep! As I've said countless times on these boards and in other places, I support a return to QC. But personal feelings/sense of nostalgia and business outlook are two very different things, generally speaking.

Markets that lost teams "pre cap" were substantially handicapped in ways that markets that lost teams "post cap" never were.

QC and Winnipeg were trouble and full of issues from Ownership to arenas and local politics.... but the way the league operated and the lack of transfer payments, big TV deals etc.. was a much larger impact on those teams leaving than "the market size" or attendance.

Gotta stop you here.

Markets that lost teams pre-cap weren't handicapped. The North Stars moved to Dallas, and Minnesota had a new team announced a mere four years later. The major difference between Minnesota losing the North Stars and QC losing the Nords/Winnipeg losing Jets 1.0? The economy.

When the Jets and Nords moved, the Canadian dollar was worth ~US$0.72
What was a huge benefit for Jets 2.0? The Canadian dollar was worth US$1.02 when the sale occurred.

Today, the Canadian dollar is worth US$0.74.

Atlanta has folded twice...once post cap. . Nobody wants to admit it, they always come up with excuses and misdirects, BUT... There was a reason the previous Atlanta owner didn't want the team anymore....it was more lucrative to have concerts and monster truck shows than run the NHL team there.... that's it. They would have a team right now if it made money.... which it never did.

"Excuses"? Cute. Clearly, you know nothing of what happened here. Did you look at the Atlanta thread? I mean, everything from news articles pointing out how flawed the 2011 narrative presented by TSN and others were, to cited court cases that outlined exactly what the ownership here wanted to do, how they wanted to do it, and even went so far as to make the Thrashers' losses appear far worse than they really were. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to not walk away from reading such articles, court summaries and testamonies, and even interviews with former employees and not think that Atlanta Spirit, LLC is among the worst ownership groups to ever hold a franchise.

The record of what happened here is, slowly but surely, being acknowledged and corrected. You might want to pay attention, because the next Atlanta franchise will be around for a very long time. Again, this does not mean Atlanta is somehow mutually exclusive to QC, or Phoenix, or Houston, or any other city. It's not "one or the other". I do hope QC has an owner who can still afford to buy a franchise, and guarantee they can sustain the team through good times and bad. I hope whichever group here gets one can do the same. And I hope Meruelo in Phoenix can get his shit together and complete the tasks before him.

The last thing both Atlanta and QC need is a third failure.

 

[Skidooboy]

If PKP wanted a team, he'd have one.

Face it, no rich guy thinks buying/owning a NHL franchise in a small village in QC is worth it.

Several guys in an accursed Southern market do.

citation required.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

LOL...????
CAP ERA VS PRE CAP. this is the "business of hockey forum right? Maybe you should understand that before you post.

and Atlanta? No matter what they say they sold in numbers..... NEVER MADE MONEY. EVER. which was why the owner wanted them gone...

Jets have less attendance (supposedly) than Atlanta did...and have never lost money.....see how business works?

Are you questioning your LOL? Weird...

Anyway, you just keep listing those excuses.

QC has lost teams and there isn't anyone putting a team there (that we know of). Atlanta is 8X the size, has endless corporate $$, and has been meeting with the NHL about an expansion team.....see how business works??

 

[Skidooboy]

Are you questioning your LOL? Weird...

Anyway, you just keep listing those excuses.

QC has lost teams and there isn't anyone putting a team there (that we know of). Atlanta is 8X the size, has endless corporate $$, and has been meeting with the NHL about an expansion team.....see how business works??

as I stated the BOG hasn an anti QC bias..which is why they are going to shoehorn teams into markets that aren't french speaking. with questionable hockey markets...... for the expansion fees.

I said that already...did you not notice?....or is reading difficult?

 

[Skidooboy]

What a you are. Maybe you should understand what happened in Atlanta before you flap your gums.

The owners didn't want the team to be successful.

omg...yes the owners took a highly profitable asset, and said "No. we don't want lots of money we hate hockey and want it to fail"....

Are you a child? The team was a loss. From Day 1 it lost money...which is why the owners wanted it to fail...so they could get rid of an white elephant ruining their profit margins.

Yep! As I've said countless times on these boards and in other places, I support a return to QC. But personal feelings/sense of nostalgia and business outlook are two very different things, generally speaking.

Gotta stop you here.

Markets that lost teams pre-cap weren't handicapped. The North Stars moved to Dallas, and Minnesota had a new team announced a mere four years later. The major difference between Minnesota losing the North Stars and QC losing the Nords/Winnipeg losing Jets 1.0? The economy.

When the Jets and Nords moved, the Canadian dollar was worth ~US$0.72
What was a huge benefit for Jets 2.0? The Canadian dollar was worth US$1.02 when the sale occurred.

Today, the Canadian dollar is worth US$0.74.

"Excuses"? Cute. Clearly, you know nothing of what happened here. Did you look at the Atlanta thread? I mean, everything from news articles pointing out how flawed the 2011 narrative presented by TSN and others were, to cited court cases that outlined exactly what the ownership here wanted to do, how they wanted to do it, and even went so far as to make the Thrashers' losses appear far worse than they really were. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to not walk away from reading such articles, court summaries and testamonies, and even interviews with former employees and not think that Atlanta Spirit, LLC is among the worst ownership groups to ever hold a franchise.

The record of what happened here is, slowly but surely, being acknowledged and corrected. You might want to pay attention, because the next Atlanta franchise will be around for a very long time. Again, this does not mean Atlanta is somehow mutually exclusive to QC, or Phoenix, or Houston, or any other city. It's not "one or the other". I do hope QC has an owner who can still afford to buy a franchise, and guarantee they can sustain the team through good times and bad. I hope whichever group here gets one can do the same. And I hope Meruelo in Phoenix can get his shit together and complete the tasks before him.

The last thing both Atlanta and QC need is a third failure.

sure.... but you ignore the Cap era rev sharing and TV deals etc, that helped small market teams (esp Canadian ones) overcome those types of economic ups and downs.

so teams that folded AFTER the cap were suffering even with all that extra revenue. which is significant. and teams that folded BEFORE that were in fact up against much harder circumstances...

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

as I stated the BOG hasn an anti QC bias..which is why they are going to shoehorn teams into markets that aren't french speaking. with questionable hockey markets...... for the expansion fees.

I said that already...did you not notice?....or is reading difficult?

No...I can read your many excuses just fine. Would love to see your source for this anti-QC (or is it Canada?) bias. Careful, your tinfoil hat is crooked.

omg...yes the owners took a highly profitable asset, and said "No. we don't want lots of money we hate hockey and want it to fail"....

And the Nordiques got shipped out, too.

 

[Yukon Joe]

citation required.

So you didn't quote me, but I've made this point numerous times.

Why do you think Salt Lake City suddenly got a team? Nobody was talking about it beforehand. It's because Ryan Smith suddenly stepped forward and offered what the NHL wanted (which was both $1.2 billion plus willing to take a relocation team).

League would much rather prefer Atlanta or Houston - but nobody was offering what Smith/SLC was.

When it comes to Quebec City: the local arena is controlled by PK Peladeau. Nobody else can credibly offer to relocate a team unless they have the agreement of Peladeau, who controls Centre Videotron (which is named for PKP's company). Peladeau submitted an expansion bid back when the $CDN was around par and the expansion price was around $500 mil - now the $CDN is around $0.72-$0.75 and the expansion price is $1.2 bil.

It is a guess, but an educated guess - PKP doesn't have the money, and (because PKP owns the arena) nobody else is able to make a credible bid.

 

[dj4aces]

sure.... but you ignore the Cap era rev sharing and TV deals etc, that helped small market teams (esp Canadian ones) overcome those types of economic ups and downs.

I didn't ignore it. I've acknowledged it before. I'm not a fan of repeating myself.

Revenue sharing has absolutely helped small market teams weather the storm. Just don't forget that the economy was a major force that drove the Jets and Nords to areas south of the 49th.

The biggest difference between Winnipeg having a team today and not QC? QC doesn't have a David Thomson. It has PKP. While he was previously interested, he may or may not still be interested. His estimated net worth today is US$1.9bn, but how much of that can be made liquid to facilitate the purchase of a NHL franchise is anyone's guess.

so teams that folded AFTER the cap were suffering even with all that extra revenue. which is significant. and teams that folded BEFORE that were in fact up against much harder circumstances...

While this would be a correct assertion, there have been zero teams that have failed since the salary cap due to financial issues.

Both the Thrashers and Coyotes experienced losses, the Thrashers were a team whose brand new owners saw the books, and bought everything anyway, with the goal of removing the Thrashers. They were seen as competition against the NBA's Hawks. They did, after all, attract more fans than the Hawks. This is barely scratching the surface of what exactly occurred here, and there are a lot more details outlined in various places throughout the 60 pages of that thread.

Meanwhile, the Coyotes moved for one reason alone, and that's because it was unsustainable for a major league franchise to play out of a small barn for much longer. Had the TED been approved by Tempe voters, we wouldn't be talking about Utah hockey in 2024. We'd still be talking about which city would be #36.

I'd love for #36 to be QC, but someone's gotta step up and ensure they can weather whatever storms come their way. Revenue sharing can help, but it won't zero out losses in times of economic disparity.

 

[Skidooboy]

I didn't ignore it. I've acknowledged it before. I'm not a fan of repeating myself.

Revenue sharing has absolutely helped small market teams weather the storm. Just don't forget that the economy was a major force that drove the Jets and Nords to areas south of the 49th.

The biggest difference between Winnipeg having a team today and not QC? QC doesn't have a David Thomson. It has PKP. While he was previously interested, he may or may not still be interested. His estimated net worth today is US$1.9bn, but how much of that can be made liquid to facilitate the purchase of a NHL franchise is anyone's guess.


While this would be a correct assertion, there have been zero teams that have failed since the salary cap due to financial issues.

Both the Thrashers and Coyotes experienced losses, the Thrashers were a team whose brand new owners saw the books, and bought everything anyway, with the goal of removing the Thrashers. They were seen as competition against the NBA's Hawks. They did, after all, attract more fans than the Hawks. This is barely scratching the surface of what exactly occurred here, and there are a lot more details outlined in various places throughout the 60 pages of that thread.

Meanwhile, the Coyotes moved for one reason alone, and that's because it was unsustainable for a major league franchise to play out of a small barn for much longer. Had the TED been approved by Tempe voters, we wouldn't be talking about Utah hockey in 2024. We'd still be talking about which city would be #36.

I'd love for #36 to be QC, but someone's gotta step up and ensure they can weather whatever storms come their way. Revenue sharing can help, but it won't zero out losses in times of economic disparity

So you didn't quote me, but I've made this point numerous times.

Why do you think Salt Lake City suddenly got a team? Nobody was talking about it beforehand. It's because Ryan Smith suddenly stepped forward and offered what the NHL wanted (which was both $1.2 billion plus willing to take a relocation team).

League would much rather prefer Atlanta or Houston - but nobody was offering what Smith/SLC was.

When it comes to Quebec City: the local arena is controlled by PK Peladeau. Nobody else can credibly offer to relocate a team unless they have the agreement of Peladeau, who controls Centre Videotron (which is named for PKP's company). Peladeau submitted an expansion bid back when the $CDN was around par and the expansion price was around $500 mil - now the $CDN is around $0.72-$0.75 and the expansion price is $1.2 bil.

It is a guess, but an educated guess - PKP doesn't have the money, and (because PKP owns the arena) nobody else is able to make a credible bid.

no it's not a guess..it's an assumption. PKP has been fishing for a team for years. The league says NO NO NO every time...it might have moved beyond PKP's desire at this point...or even his financial ability ...but i the leagues anti QC, anti French bias is what kept the team away from QC not a lack of market, owner or arena.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I didn't ignore it. I've acknowledged it before. I'm not a fan of repeating myself.

Revenue sharing has absolutely helped small market teams weather the storm. Just don't forget that the economy was a major force that drove the Jets and Nords to areas south of the 49th.

The biggest difference between Winnipeg having a team today and not QC? QC doesn't have a David Thomson. It has PKP. While he was previously interested, he may or may not still be interested. His estimated net worth today is US$1.9bn, but how much of that can be made liquid to facilitate the purchase of a NHL franchise is anyone's guess.

re: David Thomson - it's never been clear how much he invested in the Jets. He became involved because he owned the land of the old Eaton's building which was where the new arena (now the CLC) was built. He maybe/probably invested some additional money in buying the Jets, but even then the purchase price was only $170 mil back in 2011 - a pittance compared to his net value.

There's little to suggest Thomson would have been interested in a $1.2 bil price for an NHL team.

While this would be a correct assertion, there have been zero teams that have failed since the salary cap due to financial issues.

Both the Thrashers and Coyotes experienced losses, the Thrashers were a team whose brand new owners saw the books, and bought everything anyway, with the goal of removing the Thrashers. They were seen as competition against the NBA's Hawks. They did, after all, attract more fans than the Hawks. This is barely scratching the surface of what exactly occurred here, and there are a lot more details outlined in various places throughout the 60 pages of that thread.

Meanwhile, the Coyotes moved for one reason alone, and that's because it was unsustainable for a major league franchise to play out of a small barn for much longer. Had the TED been approved by Tempe voters, we wouldn't be talking about Utah hockey in 2024. We'd still be talking about which city would be #36.

I'd love for #36 to be QC, but someone's gotta step up and ensure they can weather whatever storms come their way. Revenue sharing can help, but it won't zero out losses in times of economic disparity.

You're ignoring a lot of history when it comes to the Coyotes - like the 2009 bankruptcy, bankruptcy cancelling their lease, and then getting kicked out of their bulding (which was specifically built for them).

Anyways though - I agree that if the Tempe vote had been approved the Yotes would still be in the desert, and I agree with your assessment about Atlanta.

 

[Skidooboy]

No...I can read your many excuses just fine. Would love to see your source for this anti-QC (or is it Canada?) bias. Careful, your tinfoil hat is crooked.

And the Nordiques got shipped out, too.

Once again Pre cap vs post cap... the situations are 100% different......I've repeated the FACT many times....reading is hard for you isn't it.

I'll tell you the anti QC bias. PKP begged to buy the 'Yotes...when ICE EDDGE was approved to be an ownership group....remember that? Then the league itself ran the team...begging pretty much anyone to buy it...with conmen liars and scam artists being the only ones to answer...not a single AZ local bidder, no t a group, not a Billionaire(az has many) nobody....

...finally a pizza store owner the NBA rejected was chosen to "save the team"... and only when another AMERICAN group stepped in was relocation considered....

 

[Yukon Joe]

no it's not a guess..it's an assumption. PKP has been fishing for a team for years. The league says NO NO NO every time...it might have moved beyond PKP's desire at this point...or even his financial ability ...but i the leagues anti QC, anti French bias is what kept the team away from QC not a lack of market, owner or arena.

But that's the thing - the NHL wasn't saying NO NO NO. They invited a bid from PKP. They invited the city of QC to build a rink to NHL specs.

That's why it's my (educated) assumption that PKP's finances changed, not that the league's atittude changed.

 

[Skidooboy]

I didn't ignore it. I've acknowledged it before. I'm not a fan of repeating myself.

Revenue sharing has absolutely helped small market teams weather the storm. Just don't forget that the economy was a major force that drove the Jets and Nords to areas south of the 49th.

The biggest difference between Winnipeg having a team today and not QC? QC doesn't have a David Thomson. It has PKP. While he was previously interested, he may or may not still be interested. His estimated net worth today is US$1.9bn, but how much of that can be made liquid to facilitate the purchase of a NHL franchise is anyone's guess.


While this would be a correct assertion, there have been zero teams that have failed since the salary cap due to financial issues.

Both the Thrashers and Coyotes experienced losses, the Thrashers were a team whose brand new owners saw the books, and bought everything anyway, with the goal of removing the Thrashers. They were seen as competition against the NBA's Hawks. They did, after all, attract more fans than the Hawks. This is barely scratching the surface of what exactly occurred here, and there are a lot more details outlined in various places throughout the 60 pages of that thread.

Meanwhile, the Coyotes moved for one reason alone, and that's because it was unsustainable for a major league franchise to play out of a small barn for much longer. Had the TED been approved by Tempe voters, we wouldn't be talking about Utah hockey in 2024. We'd still be talking about which city would be #36.

I'd love for #36 to be QC, but someone's gotta step up and ensure they can weather whatever storms come their way. Revenue sharing can help, but it won't zero out losses in times of economic disparity.

sorry if the yotes or thrashers were a valuable money maker they would have sold as is....or more likely never have needed to be sold.

they were always money losers. from day 1. which is why they were sold.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Once again Pre cap vs post cap... the situations are 100% different......I've repeated the FACT many times....reading is hard for you isn't it.

I'll tell you the anti QC bias. PKP begged to buy the 'Yotes...when ICE EDDGE was approved to be an ownership group....remember that? Then the league itself ran the team...begging pretty much anyone to buy it...with conmen liars and scam artists being the only ones to answer...not a single AZ local bidder, no t a group, not a Billionaire(az has many) nobody....

...finally a pizza store owner the NBA rejected was chosen to "save the team"... and only when another AMERICAN group stepped in was relocation considered....

Again...I've been able to read your excuses just fine. I've repeated that FACT many times...pot/kettle.

History lesson...there were 25 additional teams in the NHL at the time the Nordiques was shipped out and they all had to deal with the same rules. I haven't heard a whole lot of complaining about pre and post cap times. Just your bitching.

Sorry dude...I understand you're all bothered that there are multiple groups stepping up to bring hockey back to Houston and Atlanta and it's been all quiet in Quebec. Hopefully someday, some growth comes to QC and someone steps up and brings a team there. Good luck.

 

[dj4aces]

You're ignoring a lot of history when it comes to the Coyotes - like the 2009 bankruptcy, bankruptcy cancelling their lease, and then getting kicked out of their bulding (which was specifically built for them).

Anyways though - I agree that if the Tempe vote had been approved the Yotes would still be in the desert, and I agree with your assessment about Atlanta.

Eh... again, didn't ignore it. It just wasn't a factor in what is essentially a relocation. Financials didn't contribute to that, it was the 4600 capacity barn with no light at the end of that particular tunnel. Now, if the team had been sold to Balsillie, this would certainly qualify as a relocation due to financial issues. At least, that's my rationale.

I also want to say that they were kicked out because they didn't agree to a long-term lease in an area of town where the fans didn't live... but I'm not well-versed in Phoenix demographics, nor do I know much about that situation overall. It's more of what I've heard over the past few years. I could be wrong.

sorry if the yotes or thrashers were a valuable money maker they would have sold as is....or more likely never have needed to be sold.

they were always money losers. from day 1. which is why they were sold.

If the Thrashers were "a valuable money maker", they still would've been moved because Atlanta Spirit didn't want the team to begin with, and Turner Broadcasting broke a binding agreement to sell to David McDavid when they sold instead to Atlanta Spirit.

Again, I really hate repeating myself, so you can read everything about what happened with all things Atlanta hockey here.

If the Coyotes were "a valuable money maker", it's hard to say if they still would've met the same fate, but one cannot make that guarantee. Would the TED vote have succeeded? It depends on whether or not the level of campaigning for the project and the money spent on that campaign was the same. If so, they too would likely have met the same fate. But that's just an assumption. No one has any way of knowing the answer to this question for sure.

 

[TheLegend]

So you didn't quote me, but I've made this point numerous times.

Why do you think Salt Lake City suddenly got a team? Nobody was talking about it beforehand. It's because Ryan Smith suddenly stepped forward and offered what the NHL wanted (which was both $1.2 billion plus willing to take a relocation team).

League would much rather prefer Atlanta or Houston - but nobody was offering what Smith/SLC was.

When it comes to Quebec City: the local arena is controlled by PK Peladeau. Nobody else can credibly offer to relocate a team unless they have the agreement of Peladeau, who controls Centre Videotron (which is named for PKP's company). Peladeau submitted an expansion bid back when the $CDN was around par and the expansion price was around $500 mil - now the $CDN is around $0.72-$0.75 and the expansion price is $1.2 bil.

It is a guess, but an educated guess - PKP doesn't have the money, and (because PKP owns the arena) nobody else is able to make a credible bid.

PKP never did have the money.... period. Always like to go to this article whenever the subject comes up.

Quebecor wants partners in NHL team bid

www.sportsnet.ca

Nevertheless he got a free arena out of it.



And now the province wants to pony up another $7 million for the LA Kings to come in for a couple of pre-season games as a way to convince the NHL that QC cn support NHL hockey.

Quebec to spend up to $7 million for L.A. Kings 2024 pre-season games in Quebec City

"I think it is important to show (Quebec City's Videotron Centre) off and use it for major events," says Finance Minister Eric Girard.

montrealgazette.com

 

[DustyDangler]

A few points.

there is no reason to think ANY circumstances will arise that will help hockey in Phoenix. whatever and however other markets have or have done is irrelevant...
Phoenix has rejected pro hockey at every level. for 30+ years. failure after failure after failure. NHL, AHL,ECHL, etc etc etc....No fans at the games, no corporate support, no TV views, no merch sales. Back in Glendale? They couldn't get 5,000 in the barn most nights for $20 lower bowl tickets....fans won't drive 30 mins of az freeway...but TO fans and Chicago fans do the same kind of commutes......in -35C snowstorms.... but the AZ commute is "too difficult"

Last season, the Tucson Roadrunners had greater attendance than the following:

• Calgary Wranglers
• Manitoba Moose
• Bridgeport Islanders
• Utica Comets
• Belleville Senators
• San Jose Barracuda

Are you also suggesting each of these markets has rejected pro hockey?

30 minutes?! At this very moment, according to The Google, it would take 1hour and 2mins to get from Gilbert to Glendale.

Toronto sure, Montreal sure, but Chicago fans as one of your examples? They are amongst the most bandwagony fans in the league. Look at their historical attendance patterns when they are good or have a Bedard vs when they suck or don't get an NHL 1OA gift. If the Blackhawks had the same PT% as the Coyotes in the last 2+ decades, they would have attendance issues too. In fact, pre-Bedard, the Blackhawks attendance had dropped 32% between '18-19 and '22-23. As bad as they were, the Coyotes never received a 1OA or 2OA in their history. Never received a bonus buzz from the NHL via the draft. Yet, the NHL gives the Blackhawks a 1OA in spite of covering up rape and takes away 1st and 2nd round picks from the Coyotes for combine violations. Inequitable discipline at a minimum.

Phoenix received the Coyotes and supported the team with fervor at the outset. It was a team worthy of support and AWA had high energy in the first few years. Then a succession of bad ownership, after bad ownership turned the team into dog water and even when they were competitive it was mostly due to goaltending and defensive structure (boring hockey). Phoenix did not reject professional hockey, professional hockey, never really came to pass as most of the folks who ran that ship were clown show amateurs at best with the last one being the greatest clown of all. A hockey facility, in a central location, with players like they were building up at the end...it would've been a totally different story.