CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[TheLegend]

red herring NO team owner just pays cash for a team. there is ALWAYS a finacial agreements with sponsors and partners. and various funding streams. and state and Provincial money is always involved in pro sports.

Deflective answer.

Bill Foley paid cash in installments.

Bottom line is PKP and Quebecor couldn’t come up with the funds to cover a $500 million (US) expansion fee and then assemble a physical franchise on top of it.

No amount of deflection or excuse is going to play that fact off.

 

[TheLegend]

OK, and aside from a team playing in a temporary arena, it was the lowest.

And I thought you were some great business mind...deciding to pay way more for tickets when they're available for way cheaper. Ha.

He mentioned how QC was averaging around 15k before they left to Colorado.

The Colisee’ capacity over it’s lifespan was mid to upper 15k.

If you do enough digging (and I did once) you will discover the Nordiques never got to 100% capacity in any year of its existence.

In a barn the size of Winnipeg’s current arena.

Now Centre Videotron seats over 18k and has filled it for the Remparts. When the Remparts were on top of the QJMHL and at $25 for the most expensive ticket (in season). But many seasons they barely filled the lower bowl and didn’t even bother selling the upper level at times (I did a lot of digging there too)

Now I’m saying this even though I’d like QC to get a team back. But the NHL looks at these things from a pure numbers standpoint and right now the numbers for them aren’t there. No matter how much shade or whataboutisms someone wants to spew on others cities as reasoning.

 

[Skidooboy]

OK, and aside from a team playing in a temporary arena, it was the lowest.

And I thought you were some great business mind...deciding to pay way more for tickets when they're available for way cheaper. Ha.

lowest what?

attendance? DUH second smallest arena after mullet.... 13K is, again, 85% capacity....

and where were all these 40 dollar seats? cause down the stretch they sure weren't empty, or selling for $40. so yeah...if i wanted a Tuesday game against Columbus in October when the Bombers were on a tear and people weren't going to games sure there were 40 seats....in the top level corners....

you get your info from chat boards I read news..see the difference?

lol...

“No. Not at all. It’s never been discussed, it’s never been considered,” Bettman said during a conversation that lasted nearly 12 minutes. “It’s talk like that, that is so destructive and unfair to everything that this organization and ownership has stood for.”

No talk of the Winnipeg Jets relocating: Bettman

Gary Bettman was not here to sound the alarm or raise any red flags. Nor did the NHL commissioner make his way to Winnipeg on Tuesday morning to make a bunch of threats, to point fingers or to play th...

www.winnipegfreepress.com

 

[Yukon Joe]

Then why did a half dozen groups fall over themselves to buy the Senators for nearly a billion dollars?

If PKP wanted to, he could find some wealthy business partners to get the funding necessary to make it work. I think the NHL told him in private that it isn't gonna happen even if they had the backing.

1. Ottawa is a majority english-speaking town. QC is french, which narrows the list A LOT.

2. Ottawa is a development opportunity - Breton Flats. QC already has a brand new arena.

3. Perhaps PKP doesn't want to give up control. He's got a good thing going - he controls the arena, owns the Remparts. If (as I theorize) he couldn't pay $500 mil, he definitely can't partner up for $1.2 bil without giving up majority control. Perhaps he just doesn't want to give up majority control.

4. PKP was a natural fit because PKP owns Quebecor/TVA. No one else would have those kind of synergies.

Look this is all educated guess kind of stuff, but I think it's an easier explanation than "NHL is bigoted against the french/afraid of separatists" reasoning.

 

[Skidooboy]

He mentioned how QC was averaging around 15k before they left to Colorado.

The Colisee’ capacity over it’s lifespan was mid to upper 15k.

If you do enough digging (and I did once) you will discover the Nordiques never got to 100% capacity in any year of its existence.

In a barn the size of Winnipeg’s current arena.

Now Centre Videotron seats over 18k and has filled it for the Remparts. When the Remparts were on top of the QJMHL and at $25 for the most expensive ticket (in season). But many seasons they barely filled the lower bowl and didn’t even bother selling the upper level at times (I did a lot of digging there too)

Now I’m saying this even though I’d like QC to get a team back. But the NHL looks at these things from a pure numbers standpoint and right now the numbers for them aren’t there. No matter how much shade or whataboutisms someone wants to spew on others cities as reasoning.

Funny how a guy who's been telling me for years that a place that has almost NEVER sat 18K hockey fans for a good team even in the NHL playoffs, and lost millions every single year they operated.... IS a great market for hockey..... and a market that routinely seats 18K for JR hockey isn't a viable hockey market...based on "numbers"

 

[Yukon Joe]

Funny how a guy who's been telling me for years that a place that has almost NEVER sat 18K hockey fans for a good team even in the NHL playoffs, and lost millions every single year they operated.... IS a great market for hockey..... and a market that routinely seats 18K for JR hockey isn't a viable hockey market...based on "numbers"

Look, I'm pro-Quebec-City-getting-a-team.

But that's a really bad comparison to make.

Junior hockey ticket prices are a totally different beast. Remparts are only ever coming close to selling out in the playoffs, and very few teams have trouble selling tickets during the playoffs. Thrashers only ever made the playoffs one year, But I'm pretty sure they sold out their games (andat much higher prices).

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

lowest what?

attendance? DUH second smallest arena after mullet.... 13K is, again, 85% capacity....

and where were all these 40 dollar seats? cause down the stretch they sure weren't empty, or selling for $40. so yeah...if i wanted a Tuesday game against Columbus in October when the Bombers were on a tear and people weren't going to games sure there were 40 seats....in the top level corners....

you get your info from chat boards I read news..see the difference?

lol...

“No. Not at all. It’s never been discussed, it’s never been considered,” Bettman said during a conversation that lasted nearly 12 minutes. “It’s talk like that, that is so destructive and unfair to everything that this organization and ownership has stood for.”

No talk of the Winnipeg Jets relocating: Bettman

Gary Bettman was not here to sound the alarm or raise any red flags. Nor did the NHL commissioner make his way to Winnipeg on Tuesday morning to make a bunch of threats, to point fingers or to play th...

www.winnipegfreepress.com

Wow… you really need your hand held

You’re not seeing the problem with that attendance even though you’re saying 85% and smallest arena in the same sentence. The point, they’re not filling up the smallest arena in the league.

And there are screenshots all over the Winnipeg thread of ticket prices. Or do you need help on how to navigate this site too?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Wow… you really need your hand held

You’re not seeing the problem with that attendance even though you’re saying 85% and smallest arena in the same sentence. The point, they’re not filling up the smallest arena in the league.

And there are screenshots all over the Winnipeg thread of ticket prices. Or do you need help on how to navigate this site too?

You are aware of the difference between first-sale price and the secondary market?

I can guarantee that for every team in the league, if you're looking for a last-minute ticket for a Tuesday night game you can find tickets ate below-market rates. But that's the secondary market. The team itself only cares about what price they get the first time a ticket sells. Beyond that on the secondary market maybe the ticket seller can double their money, maybe they lose money - it doesn't concern the team one bit.

Obviously the Jets aren't unconcerned about ending their sellout streak. That's why Chipman (and Bettman) were speaking out about it. But it's far from a reason to worry about the team relocating.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

If we're being brutally honest with ourselves, if it wasn't for the fact that Winnipeg has by far the richest owner in terms of overall liquidity - and maybe more importantly, an owner who has a vested interest in making downtown Winnipeg worth more then simply being a hub for corporate Manitoba Hydro and MTS employees - then absolutely, people would be looking at the things that came out of Chipman et. all basically dangling the Jets in front of Manitoba, alongside the hay made over ticket sales, and be leaving them for dead the same way Phoenix was for the longest time, and how many Sun Belt markets were when they had downturns. Instead, it's really just a nothing burger, with maybe a kernel of truth that could come a decade, two down the line based on market factors.

The fact of the matter is that PKP basically stopped sniffing at an NHL team when the $500 million price came along, and much hasn't happened in that regard since. Of course, political/Francophone sentiments also play into that, but as it stands, PKP and Quebecor don't have the money to get in on the ground floor of expansion. Which is about the only way a QC team is going to happen, considering they didn't pipe up during the Phoenix process.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

You are aware of the difference between first-sale price and the secondary market?

I can guarantee that for every team in the league, if you're looking for a last-minute ticket for a Tuesday night game you can find tickets ate below-market rates. But that's the secondary market. The team itself only cares about what price they get the first time a ticket sells. Beyond that on the secondary market maybe the ticket seller can double their money, maybe they lose money - it doesn't concern the team one bit.

Obviously the Jets aren't unconcerned about ending their sellout streak. That's why Chipman (and Bettman) were speaking out about it. But it's far from a reason to worry about the team relocating.

Oh, I’m certainly not saying anything about relocating, nor have I said that. Like most teams, I’m sure the lower attendance is just a blip and it’ll be sellouts again soon.

And yes, I understand the secondary market. Prices are adjusted based on supply and demand. I just bring it up because people always site the secondary prices when they’re discussing Atlanta’s or Florida’s (a few years back) ticket prices but then use Ticketmaster prices when they discuss other teams. Personally, I always find the ticket brokers are much cheaper and only use Ticketmaster for expected sellouts (like the Braves on a weekend).

 

[TheLegend]

Funny how a guy who's been telling me for years that a place that has almost NEVER sat 18K hockey fans for a good team even in the NHL playoffs, and lost millions every single year they operated.... IS a great market for hockey..... and a market that routinely seats 18K for JR hockey isn't a viable hockey market...based on "numbers"

I'm not saying anything other than how I feel the NHL looks at it. And QC has NOT regularly seated 18K for junior hockey. I did periodical monitoring of Ticketmaster during the Remparts seasons over the previous 2-3 seasons.

But you can of course cite some references to otherwise but last year's playoffs on their own aren't going to cut it.

 

[TheLegend]

In case anyone was wondering.......

 

[TheLegend]

Updated…..



However IIRC…… The current legislation being proposed (HB2274?) amends the theme park district law affectively removing the city and county from the process. Which if passed could mean the abatements can be applied without city or county having a say.

(This is where I need @1CasualFan to step in and interpret things )

 

[Skidooboy]

I'm not saying anything other than how I feel the NHL looks at it. And QC has NOT regularly seated 18K for junior hockey. I did periodical monitoring of Ticketmaster during the Remparts seasons over the previous 2-3 seasons.

But you can of course cite some references to otherwise but last year's playoffs on their own aren't going to cut it.

If the NHL looked at "NUMBERS" AZ would have been moved out of the market decades ago.

So clearly there is more on thier minds than the raw Numbers.

As I have stated, sure teams can be successful in lots of markets that are "non-traditional" but if the league is expanding to 36 teams..(already at 32 more franchises than any other major NA pro league) there has to be something beyond "some billionaire wants to buy a team and we want the franchise cash!" ...because the league, already a distant 4th in terms of pro sports league revenue, won't look better if we add another 4 franchises in bad markets just to watch them fail.....
There needs to be an honest assessment of the team's ability to generate profit, and grow the sport... not just in terms of TV contracts etc, but actually serve VIABLE, INTERESTED,ROBUST markets.

And no winning isn't the answer... because you cannot count on winning every year to be the driver.. and you can't just point at ownership issues and marketing either.... at a certain point SOMEBODY needs to show up to the games and buy the Jerseys and love the game for the game...

to that point I'd suggest "looking at the numbers" would place Atlanta and AZ at the bottom of any list based on the repeated failure of the markets to generate profits and grow the sports fan base. Even places like Hamilton or another Toronto team need that consideration...because that southern Ontario/Que region is such strong Leafs/Habs culture that teams there will be fighting a HUUUGE uphill battle to win fans, just like Ottawa does.. which is as much the Sens issue as the commute...

and that isn't crapping on markets...that's an honest assessment of the history of the business of the sport.

 

[Yukon Joe]

to that point I'd suggest "looking at the numbers" would place Atlanta and AZ at the bottom of any list based on the repeated failure of the markets to generate profits and grow the sports fan base. Even places like Hamilton or another Toronto team need that consideration...because that southern Ontario/Que region is such strong Leafs/Habs culture that teams there will be fighting a HUUUGE uphill battle to win fans, just like Ottawa does.. which is as much the Sens issue as the commute...

Come on man, we've been over this...

Atlanta Flames - it was the freaking 1970s. Almost 50 years ago. Just a totally different era.

Atlanta Thrashers - they had a disfunctional ownership group that flat out did not want to own an NHL team.

Arizona Coyotes - ownership separated the team from the wider property development. Arizona was hit harder than almost anywhere else in the 2008 financial crisis, then went into bankruptcy, then got kicked out of their own arena. It was a series of cascading errors.

There's a reason the league would like to go back to both cities - if the situation is right.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Wait a second. Are you saying that businesses should place its products in markets where buyers are willing to pay for it? Should I reconsider my plan to open Porky's Bar-B-Que Pig Palace in Saudi Arabia

If you want to open a BBQ place consult the folks in Eastern NC because they do it better than anyone.

Carry on!

 

[Blue Warriors]

He mentioned how QC was averaging around 15k before they left to Colorado.

The Colisee’ capacity over it’s lifespan was mid to upper 15k.

If you do enough digging (and I did once) you will discover the Nordiques never got to 100% capacity in any year of its existence.

In a barn the size of Winnipeg’s current arena.

Now Centre Videotron seats over 18k and has filled it for the Remparts. When the Remparts were on top of the QJMHL and at $25 for the most expensive ticket (in season). But many seasons they barely filled the lower bowl and didn’t even bother selling the upper level at times (I did a lot of digging there too)

Now I’m saying this even though I’d like QC to get a team back. But the NHL looks at these things from a pure numbers standpoint and right now the numbers for them aren’t there. No matter how much shade or whataboutisms someone wants to spew on others cities as reasoning.

There were seats with an obstructed view and horrible sightlines in the old Colisee.

The Nordiques had better attendance in 1995 than the following teams: Boston, Florida, Washington, Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, NY Islanders, Hartford and Ottawa. Despite the threat of relocation.

In the early 80s when they were competitive they had the 8th best attendance out of 21 franchises.

Between 89 and 91, when they were dead last in the league for 3 years in a row( one of the worst nhl roster in history), they still managed to have better attendance than at least 6 other teams.

There are many reasons why the NHL doesn't want to come back to Quebec City. I don't think attendance history is one of them.

NHL 1994-95 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Attendance for the National Hockey League for the 1994-95 season

www.hockeydb.com

 

[TheLegend]

If the NHL looked at "NUMBERS" AZ would have been moved out of the market decades ago.

So clearly there is more on thier minds than the raw Numbers.

As I have stated, sure teams can be successful in lots of markets that are "non-traditional" but if the league is expanding to 36 teams..(already at 32 more franchises than any other major NA pro league) there has to be something beyond "some billionaire wants to buy a team and we want the franchise cash!" ...because the league, already a distant 4th in terms of pro sports league revenue, won't look better if we add another 4 franchises in bad markets just to watch them fail.....
There needs to be an honest assessment of the team's ability to generate profit, and grow the sport... not just in terms of TV contracts etc, but actually serve VIABLE, INTERESTED,ROBUST markets.

And no winning isn't the answer... because you cannot count on winning every year to be the driver.. and you can't just point at ownership issues and marketing either.... at a certain point SOMEBODY needs to show up to the games and buy the Jerseys and love the game for the game...

to that point I'd suggest "looking at the numbers" would place Atlanta and AZ at the bottom of any list based on the repeated failure of the markets to generate profits and grow the sports fan base. Even places like Hamilton or another Toronto team need that consideration...because that southern Ontario/Que region is such strong Leafs/Habs culture that teams there will be fighting a HUUUGE uphill battle to win fans, just like Ottawa does.. which is as much the Sens issue as the commute...

and that isn't crapping on markets...that's an honest assessment of the history of the business of the sport.

Correct.....

There are numbers.... and there are potential numbers. And Arizona and Atlanta offer more in the potential category than a place like Quebec City. Atlanta is the 7th largest media market in the US and Phoenix is 11th. Only two Canadian cities can even crack the top ten (Toronto and Montreal).

That's the cold hard reality of it.

Personally I think with a deep pocketed ownership group, Quebec City could hold its own. But it's not what I think, it's the league.

 

[TheLegend]

There were seats with an obstructed view and horrible sightlines in the old Colisee.

The Nordiques had better attendance in 1995 than the following teams: Boston, Florida, Washington, Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, NY Islanders, Hartford and Ottawa. Despite the threat of relocation.

In the early 80s when they were competitive they had the 8th best attendance out of 21 franchises.

Between 89 and 91, when they were dead last in the league for 3 years in a row( one of the worst nhl roster in history), they still managed to have better attendance than at least 6 other teams.

There are many reasons why the NHL doesn't want to come back to Quebec City. I don't think attendance history is one of them.

NHL 1994-95 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Attendance for the National Hockey League for the 1994-95 season

www.hockeydb.com

Sounds a lot like Phoenix/Arizona the first few years (Colisee vs Footprint). And Utah going into next year for that matter.

In the mid-90's the Coyotes were sitting in the middle third of the league while Chicago (under Bill Wirtz) was sitting near the bottom.

Of course that's changed a lot since then and I agree attendance wouldn't be much of a problem in QC. But the league looks at much more than that these days.

 

[Skidooboy]

Come on man, we've been over this...

Atlanta Flames - it was the freaking 1970s. Almost 50 years ago. Just a totally different era.

Atlanta Thrashers - they had a disfunctional ownership group that flat out did not want to own an NHL team.

Arizona Coyotes - ownership separated the team from the wider property development. Arizona was hit harder than almost anywhere else in the 2008 financial crisis, then went into bankruptcy, then got kicked out of their own arena. It was a series of cascading errors.

There's a reason the league would like to go back to both cities - if the situation is right.

and I say over and over. the Thrashers with the cap. and the transfer payments and restructured TV deals....NEVER MADE MONEY. which was why the owner didn't want them, Not some secret vendetta against hockey... if the thrashers had made money...the owner would have kept them.

and NO PRO HOCKEY TEAM IN AZ HISTORY HAS MADE MONEY.

your side arguments and ongoing BS about ownership and arena location and marketing are just deflection...It's slapping lipstick on a pig to avoid the central issue....

 

[tucker3434]

and I say over and over. the Thrashers with the cap. and the transfer payments and restructured TV deals....NEVER MADE MONEY. which was why the owner didn't want them, Not some secret vendetta against hockey... if the thrashers had made money...the owner would have kept them.

and NO PRO HOCKEY TEAM IN AZ HISTORY HAS MADE MONEY.

your side arguments and ongoing BS about ownership and arena location and marketing are just deflection...It's slapping lipstick on a pig to avoid the central issue....

The Thrashers and Predators were on similar trajectories early on. The Preds were even the ones occasionally targeted by relocation rumors. Then the Preds starting going to the playoffs and everything changed.

The Thrashers averaged a 24th place finish. They averaged 24th best attendance. The team doesn't need to win all of the time, just some of the time. You know, like about 2/3 of the teams currently in the NHL.

The Thrasher don’t fail if they’re sold in 2011 with an arena attached. Period.

 

[Skidooboy]

Correct.....

There are numbers.... and there are potential numbers. And Arizona and Atlanta offer more in the potential category than a place like Quebec City. Atlanta is the 7th largest media market in the US and Phoenix is 11th. Only two Canadian cities can even crack the top ten (Toronto and Montreal).

That's the cold hard reality of it.

Personally I think with a deep pocketed ownership group, Quebec City could hold its own. But it's not what I think, it's the league.

lol 30+ years of failure....there is no potential to that market..
NONE. proven over and over.

A market is only a market if people are buying what you are selling...which is why AZ is a repeated failure.. not enough people bought it. No AZ owners or Corporation are even interested.... hell none of the suburbs even want the arena or team there.

and I'm sorry but the NorthRidge arena location? Nearly as far from downtown as Glendale is..... oly works if you can prove that the people in Scotsdale are a "hockey market" . So far the only thing I've seen proven is it's a WEALTHY AREA.... I've never seen any study or plebiscite or survey that demonstrates that population is actually interested in hockey...It might shock you but there's plenty of people in Scottsdale I've met(family there) who don't give a shit about hockey.

BTW the US market of 300 million generates less revenue for the NHL than Canada's 30 million..... so where is the market? and what is the potential?

again I'm NOT saying all markets in the USA will fail and the NHL should just stop. Nor am I saying "southern US markets are bad...there's plenty of good southern hockey markets........ just that the league needs to be more careful with where they place teams than "Hey this guy has the cash lets get a big fat fee."

 

[Takuto Maruki]

again I'm NOT saying all markets in the USA will fail and the NHL should just stop. Nor am I saying "southern US markets are bad...there's plenty of good southern hockey markets........ just that the league needs to be more careful with where they place teams than "Hey this guy has the cash lets get a big fat fee."

That's effectively what you're saying. Especially when you've been told why Atlanta 2.0 failed (and how Atlanta 1.0 isn't at all relevant to the ultimate health of Atlanta as a market) yet you still believe it is ultimately a burnt and failed market.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

I knew more Red Wings fans then I did Blue Jackets fans in Cleveland. Which wasn't hard because I knew literally no Blue Jackets fans.

I think people are overrating proximity when it comes to where the allegiances fall if the city doesn't have a team. If your city doesn't have a team located there or getting the games regularly not every fan is going to automatically pick the team that's the shortest drive.

Come on now. Surely every Canadian hockey fan west of Montreal is a Leafs fan.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Several guys in an accursed Southern market do.

And we watch them fail over and over again.