CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[DustyDangler]

A few points.

there is no reason to think ANY circumstances will arise that will help hockey in Phoenix. whatever and however other markets have or have done is irrelevant...
Phoenix has rejected pro hockey at every level. for 30+ years. failure after failure after failure. NHL, AHL,ECHL, etc etc etc....No fans at the games, no corporate support, no TV views, no merch sales. Back in Glendale? They couldn't get 5,000 in the barn most nights for $20 lower bowl tickets....fans won't drive 30 mins of az freeway...but TO fans and Chicago fans do the same kind of commutes......in -35C snowstorms.... but the AZ commute is "too difficult"

Also, since you really cited Phoenix and I came back at you with Tucson the Phoenix Roadrunners of the IHL (similar to AHL at the time) had an average attendance of 6,359 in their 7 years of existence. 6,359 would put them at 14th of 32 in last year's AHL attendance by team. I do not believe this qualifies as a rejection of professional hockey.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Before moving the Nordiques were drawing near 15,000 average per season.
they had a pretty loyal and rabid fan base. so the market was there even when "served by another team".

the difference between Pre Cap relocation and Post Cap relocation CANNOT be overstated.

Markets that lost teams "pre cap" were substantially handicapped in ways that markets that lost teams "post cap" never were.

QC and Winnipeg were trouble and full of issues from Ownership to arenas and local politics.... but the way the league operated and the lack of transfer payments, big TV deals etc.. was a much larger impact on those teams leaving than "the market size" or attendance.... from the beginning those teams were built to fail because the NHL BOG really didn't want them to succeed. Edmonton was the exception because they got Gretzky..5 cups MADE them a success....that's it. no great one? 90% probability the Oilers failed too.

Comparing the Thrashers and dogs to those failures to Winnipeg QC and Hartford is like comparing a DC3 to a Airbus A220.

so for expansion?? the league really needs to pay attention to the sport and it's success and it's markets....

Watching Atlanta piss away a third NHL Franchise is a game some BIllionaire wants to play? fine.... I guess....Watching AZ flail around after 30 years of proof there is no market in the valley? absurd and pathetic....throwing teams hither and yon for the lucrative payments from new owners? ok but it's not going to help the game long term. because blatant cash grabs look tacky and diminish brands....

The League is doing the sport, itself, and the fans a huge disservice if it chases all that cash and but still won't put teams in markets where they actually exist.... QC.

But you ignore one thing: the players will put Quebec on the NTC/NMC list, just like the other small-market Canadian teams.

 

[Skidooboy]

But you ignore one thing: the players will put Quebec on the NTC/NMC list, just like the other small-market Canadian teams.

maybe. it's 100 percent possible... though QC is a different beast than say Edmonton or Winnipeg.... it's got old world charm, it's got high end districts and Old money. Its QC so more liberal(ish) than western prairie towns...and it's much closer to TO and NY or even a flight to Paris etc...

 

[Skidooboy]

Also, since you really cited Phoenix and I came back at you with Tucson the Phoenix Roadrunners of the IHL (similar to AHL at the time) had an average attendance of 6,359 in their 7 years of existence. 6,359 would put them at 14th of 32 in last year's AHL attendance by team. I do not believe this qualifies as a rejection of professional hockey.

attendance don't mean shit if ticket prices are rock bottom and you have no revenue. which is why thiose teams folded. over and over and over


which is why Winnipeg makes money at attendance lower than Atlanta was losing money on..

PKP never did have the money.... period. Always like to go to this article whenever the subject comes up.

Quebecor wants partners in NHL team bid

www.sportsnet.ca

Nevertheless he got a free arena out of it.



And now the province wants to pony up another $7 million for the LA Kings to come in for a couple of pre-season games as a way to convince the NHL that QC cn support NHL hockey.

Quebec to spend up to $7 million for L.A. Kings 2024 pre-season games in Quebec City

"I think it is important to show (Quebec City's Videotron Centre) off and use it for major events," says Finance Minister Eric Girard.

montrealgazette.com

red herring NO team owner just pays cash for a team. there is ALWAYS a finacial agreements with sponsors and partners. and various funding streams. and state and Provincial money is always involved in pro sports.

 

[Skidooboy]

Last season, the Tucson Roadrunners had greater attendance than the following:

• Calgary Wranglers
• Manitoba Moose
• Bridgeport Islanders
• Utica Comets
• Belleville Senators
• San Jose Barracuda

Are you also suggesting each of these markets has rejected pro hockey?

30 minutes?! At this very moment, according to The Google, it would take 1hour and 2mins to get from Gilbert to Glendale.

Toronto sure, Montreal sure, but Chicago fans as one of your examples? They are amongst the most bandwagony fans in the league. Look at their historical attendance patterns when they are good or have a Bedard vs when they suck or don't get an NHL 1OA gift. If the Blackhawks had the same PT% as the Coyotes in the last 2+ decades, they would have attendance issues too. In fact, pre-Bedard, the Blackhawks attendance had dropped 32% between '18-19 and '22-23. As bad as they were, the Coyotes never received a 1OA or 2OA in their history. Never received a bonus buzz from the NHL via the draft. Yet, the NHL gives the Blackhawks a 1OA in spite of covering up rape and takes away 1st and 2nd round picks from the Coyotes for combine violations. Inequitable discipline at a minimum.

Phoenix received the Coyotes and supported the team with fervor at the outset. It was a team worthy of support and AWA had high energy in the first few years. Then a succession of bad ownership, after bad ownership turned the team into dog water and even when they were competitive it was mostly due to goaltending and defensive structure (boring hockey). Phoenix did not reject professional hockey, professional hockey, never really came to pass as most of the folks who ran that ship were clown show amateurs at best with the last one being the greatest clown of all. A hockey facility, in a central location, with players like they were building up at the end...it would've been a totally different story.

yawn heard it all before. and it's never changed the fact the team has been a tire fire with no views, no merch, no ticket sales.

As for the commute from Gilbert to Glendale...what about the 1 hour 12 min WINTER commute from Newmarket to Toronto ???? People make that all the time...

or the 2.5 hours each way I drive across frozen prairies 6 times a year or more for Jets games games?
or the aTO fans who drive to NY or Detroit for games.
THE ONLY THING UNIQUE ABOUT THE AZ COMMUTE IS THAT IT"S EASY.

 

[DustyDangler]

attendance don't mean shit if ticket prices are rock bottom and you have no revenue. which is why thiose teams folded. over and over and over


which is why Winnipeg makes money at attendance lower than Atlanta was losing money on..

red herring NO team owner just pays cash for a team. there is ALWAYS a finacial agreements with sponsors and partners. and various funding streams. and state and Provincial money is always involved in pro sports.

The Phoenix Roadrunners folded because the NHL came to town. The IHL folded shortly thereafter. I don't know how the ticket prices compared in the IHL but in the AHL from, most recent public data, Tucson prices are lower middle of the pack just under Laval (not some sort of low cost aberration).

 

[DustyDangler]

yawn heard it all before. and it's never changed the fact the team has been a tire fire with no views, no merch, no ticket sales.

As for the commute from Gilbert to Glendale...what about the 1 hour 12 min WINTER commute from Newmarket to Toronto ???? People make that all the time...

or the 2.5 hours each way I drive across frozen prairies 6 times a year or more for Jets games games?
or the aTO fans who drive to NY or Detroit for games.
THE ONLY THING UNIQUE ABOUT THE AZ COMMUTE IS THAT IT"S EASY.

Already conceded that Toronto and Montreal fans will show up no matter how bad their teams suck.

If you think the Phoenix metro commute is easy, you have never made it.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

which is why Winnipeg makes money at attendance lower than Atlanta was losing money on..

Not sure where you get all this from since you don't source it, but there's a thread down towards the bottom of the page that started because Chipman has been (or was) begging for corporate help. Then, during the year, attendance barely got over 13K and secondary ticket sites had plenty for sale between $20 and $30. Later, Bettman came up to help drum up ticket sales as well.

The Jets will ultimately be fine and will bounce back but, just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true.

 

[Yukon Joe]

maybe. it's 100 percent possible... though QC is a different beast than say Edmonton or Winnipeg.... it's got old world charm, it's got high end districts and Old money. Its QC so more liberal(ish) than western prairie towns...and it's much closer to TO and NY or even a flight to Paris etc...

You're kind of missing the elephant in the room about Quebec City - it is overwhelmingly french-speaking (much more so than Montreal). The old Nordiques always had trouble attracting players due to this exact reason. Do you remember the whole ruckus when Eric Lindros refused to sign with the Nords despite being drafted first overall?

 

[aqib]

LOL...????
CAP ERA VS PRE CAP. this is the "business of hockey forum right? Maybe you should understand that before you post.

and Atlanta? No matter what they say they sold in numbers..... NEVER MADE MONEY. EVER. which was why the owner wanted them gone...

Jets have less attendance (supposedly) than Atlanta did...and have never lost money.....see how business works?

Wait a second. Are you saying that businesses should place its products in markets where buyers are willing to pay for it? Should I reconsider my plan to open Porky's Bar-B-Que Pig Palace in Saudi Arabia

 

[aqib]

You're kind of missing the elephant in the room about Quebec City - it is overwhelmingly french-speaking (much more so than Montreal). The old Nordiques always had trouble attracting players due to this exact reason. Do you remember the whole ruckus when Eric Lindros refused to sign with the Nords despite being drafted first overall?

He said more recently it was because he didn't want to play for Aubut.

 

[Yukon Joe]

He said more recently it was because he didn't want to play for Aubut.

Do you think that's true, or just more polite than saying he didn't want to go to Quebec City itself?

I mean I've hardly ever seen an NHL player go on the record saying anything bad about Winnipeg - yet it's still on almost every "no trade" list.

 

[LPHabsFan]

You're kind of missing the elephant in the room about Quebec City - it is overwhelmingly french-speaking (much more so than Montreal). The old Nordiques always had trouble attracting players due to this exact reason. Do you remember the whole ruckus when Eric Lindros refused to sign with the Nords despite being drafted first overall?

A prominent NHL media person has said that one of the big reasons the Nords won't come back any time soon is because of PKP and all the politics, which is obviously tied to everything French. It rarely gets brought up because people in Quebec don't want to talk about it because they know how it makes them look everywhere outside of Quebec.

 

[Skidooboy]

Not sure where you get all this from since you don't source it, but there's a thread down towards the bottom of the page that started because Chipman has been (or was) begging for corporate help. Then, during the year, attendance barely got over 13K and secondary ticket sites had plenty for sale between $20 and $30. Later, Bettman came up to help drum up ticket sales as well.

The Jets will ultimately be fine and will bounce back but, just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true.

I got that from Chipman when he said..." The Jets have never lost money"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-jets-hockey-operations-profits-1.7171250#:~:text=Mark%20Chipman%20says%20his%20company,into%20the%20Canada%20Life%20Centre.

I mean is this the business of hockey forum or the internet hottakes forum? do I need to source every single publicly known fact? do you guys pay attention to the business of hockey? or just memes that suit your prefered narrative?

Do I have to repeatedly mention that the Jets have the smallest arena in the NHL and their lowest attendance was still like 85% capacity at worst and the 11,000 number is meaningless without context?

Do I have to mention that 18K seats at $40 average cost means less revenue than 15K seats at $95?

the "trouble filling the barn " issue was a nothingburger.

 

[BMN]

Do you think that's true, or just more polite than saying he didn't want to go to Quebec City itself?

I mean I've hardly ever seen an NHL player go on the record saying anything bad about Winnipeg - yet it's still on almost every "no trade" list.

Honestly it was probably more of a "Column A, Column B" where it was polite to say one Column out loud but not the other. Aubut's reputation wasn't exactly sterling at the time. Also Lindros (or probably more accurately his family) had staked himself as picky as a teenager, refusing to play for Sault Ste. Marie.

 

[Salsero1]

Wait a second. Are you saying that businesses should place its products in markets where buyers are willing to pay for it? Should I reconsider my plan to open Porky's Bar-B-Que Pig Palace in Saudi Arabia

Yes, because people below whatever arbitrary line of latitude lack the "like hockey" gene. As a hockey fan in NC, this attitude honestly offends me.

No rich guy in Quebec want to pay for a franchise.

But sure, ya'll know better than people calling the shots.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I got that from Chipman when he said..." The Jets have never lost money"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-jets-hockey-operations-profits-1.7171250#:~:text=Mark%20Chipman%20says%20his%20company,into%20the%20Canada%20Life%20Centre.

I mean is this the business of hockey forum or the internet hottakes forum? do I need to source every single publicly known fact? do you guys pay attention to the business of hockey? or just memes that suit your prefered narrative?

Do I have to repeatedly mention that the Jets have the smallest arena in the NHL and their lowest attendance was still like 85% capacity at worst and the 11,000 number is meaningless without context?

Do I have to mention that 18K seats at $40 average cost means less revenue than 15K seats at $95?

the "trouble filling the barn " issue was a nothingburger.

They averaged just over 13K for the entire season. Plenty of available tickets were less than $40. If it was such a "nothingburger", then why is the owner of the team publicly begging for corporate help? Do you even read the news or just keep making up random excuses to try to make your point?

 

[dj4aces]

yawn heard it all before. and it's never changed the fact the team has been a tire fire with no views, no merch, no ticket sales.

Rather than taking a cavalier attitude towards markets that have experienced turmoil and trouble, and assuming everything said is "an excuse", it would be wise to pay attention to what has been said about the market from the people who know it the best. Not everything is an excuse, but if you assume such about one market, you leave the door wide open for assumptions about your own.

If there was "no views, no merch, no ticket sales", there's a reason for it. Now, you can assume that Phoenix is just a bad market. You'd be wrong though, but you can assume. Or, you can go delve deep into the old Phoenix threads. That might prove quite illuminating, I'm sure.

Wait a second. Are you saying that businesses should place its products in markets where buyers are willing to pay for it? Should I reconsider my plan to open Porky's Bar-B-Que Pig Palace in Saudi Arabia

Market research would tell someone that opening a pork BBQ place in Saudi Arabia is not the wisest of ideas, for a variety of reasons. In much the same way, market research tells prospective owners and the league that owning a team in certain places can be just as bad of a business move.. or, it could also be a good business move.

Phoenix and Atlanta both have growth potential that was never really tapped, whether it be because a group was rubber-stamped as new owners of a franchise they didn't want in a league they didn't like, or because another franchise kept limping from one failed ownership group to the next. This would be tapping markets where demand exists and growth is anticipated, not placing a restaurant in a location where saying zero demand for it exists would be an understatement.

 

[Yukon Joe]

A prominent NHL media person has said that one of the big reasons the Nords won't come back any time soon is because of PKP and all the politics, which is obviously tied to everything French. It rarely gets brought up because people in Quebec don't want to talk about it because they know how it makes them look everywhere outside of Quebec.

So PKP was at one time the leader of the separatist Parti Quebecois, and ran so on a fairly explicit independence platform.

His leadership was a disaster though. He was leader for slightly less then one year, and he never led the party in an election. Since then - maybe I just haven't heard anything but I think he's stayed far away from politics. That was also 8 years ago.

 

[Skidooboy]

They averaged just over 13K for the entire season. Plenty of available tickets were less than $40. If it was such a "nothingburger", then why is the owner of the team publicly begging for corporate help? Do you even read the news or just keep making up random excuses to try to make your point?

my point was the Jets have never lost money. The article I sourced acknowledge that.

what is your point?

My point has been that teams that make money make money and teams that lose money lose money.

 

[BMN]

The "demand" logic isn't why the Saudi Arabia analogy was a terrible one. You wouldn't open a restaurant with low demand that far away.

Demand for hockey exists in literally every major metro area in North America. The questions usually surround "how much now vs. how much could be later?," "what am I going to have to do to get to 'later?'" Etc.

What I will say about Atlanta and Phoenix as markets is that they're unproven. But "unproven" ≠ "wrong choice. To be honest Quebec City is unproven too, just based on very different reasons.

 

[Skidooboy]

They averaged just over 13K for the entire season. Plenty of available tickets were less than $40. If it was such a "nothingburger", then why is the owner of the team publicly begging for corporate help? Do you even read the news or just keep making up random excuses to try to make your point?

btw just over 13K? that’s 85% capacity.

oh, and yeah, some resellers were selling tickets below cost at $40 but the cheapest seat in the arena I know because I had them for 10 years of season tickets is $75 for the second last row at the top of the upper deck

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

My point has been that teams that make money make money and teams that lose money lose money.

Point is, you post as if you're some great business expert, but this is false.

NHL saw the potential in the Southeast decades ago. Then, posters like yourself, posted "teams that make money make money and teams that lose money lose money" and was screaming for teams like Nashville, Carolina, and Florida to move to some small northern outpost.

Now, SE growth has been off the charts and Florida, Dallas, Carolina, and Tampa are all among tops in attendance and Nashville still regularly sells out.

I'll trust the business sense of the multiple investors linked to Atlanta.

 

[Headshot77]

If PKP wanted a team, he'd have one.

Face it, no rich guy thinks buying/owning a NHL franchise in a small village in QC is worth it.

Several guys in an accursed Southern market do.

Then why did a half dozen groups fall over themselves to buy the Senators for nearly a billion dollars?

If PKP wanted to, he could find some wealthy business partners to get the funding necessary to make it work. I think the NHL told him in private that it isn't gonna happen even if they had the backing.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

btw just over 13K? that’s 85% capacity.

oh, and yeah, some resellers were selling tickets below cost at $40 but the cheapest seat in the arena I know because I had them for 10 years of season tickets is $75 for the second last row at the top of the upper deck

OK, and aside from a team playing in a temporary arena, it was the lowest.

And I thought you were some great business mind...deciding to pay way more for tickets when they're available for way cheaper. Ha.