CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[TheGreenTBer]

I'm not a scholar but I was a practising lawyer for over 40 years and I retired with my sense of humour intact...

I have no experience or training in the legal system but I would argue that it's even harder to practice law with no sense of humor, otherwise the emotions might eat you.

 

[Stumbledore]

I have no experience or training in the legal system but I would argue that it's even harder to practice law with no sense of humor, otherwise the emotions might eat you.

Perhaps. I was a "papers and documents" guy, mostly just estates, trusts, wills, etc. Not a lot of drama. (Probate is nowhere near as exciting as that TV-staple scene where you gather the family in your office and read the contents of the will. Which never happened for me.)

The reason I got into this thread in the first place -- back when it took only one or two Roman numerals to name it -- was because of Baum's bankruptcy hearings and while I enjoyed the judge's rulings and turns of phrase, I hung around for the denouement.

Who knew it would take another 20 years or so.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Does Utah team have any social media account yet?

Strange.

 

[TheLegend]

Does Utah team have any social media account yet?

Strange.

NHL has not even recognized them with a sub-page on their website either.

 

[aqib]

I can't speak for Kev or what the thought was behind the wide radii, but it may be more of an indicator of secondary market fans? Fans who don't live within the 50mi radius from a team's city limits (a team's market area), but could be a fan of either. To use an example on the map, Cleveland. That's a city that falls within both Detroit's and Columbus' secondary area, and a hockey fan there is just as likely to drive the ~140 miles to Nationwide as it would be to drive the ~170 miles to Little Caesars.

I could, and very likely am, way off base as to what was intended... but that's really the only thing I can come up with when I thought about it.

I knew more Red Wings fans then I did Blue Jackets fans in Cleveland. Which wasn't hard because I knew literally no Blue Jackets fans.

I think people are overrating proximity when it comes to where the allegiances fall if the city doesn't have a team. If your city doesn't have a team located there or getting the games regularly not every fan is going to automatically pick the team that's the shortest drive.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

NHL has not even recognized them with a sub-page on their website either.

Not really a surprise on that front, they are waiting until new season officially begins.

But surely social media account should be up and running by now.

 

[TheLegend]

Is it wise to allow private business to set their own tax rate on goods and have the tax revenue go into that business owner’s pockets?

If it puts revenue in the pockets of ordinary people who wouldn’t have the opportunity without it then why not?

It’s done more often than you would like to believe.

 

[Fatass]

If it puts revenue in the pockets of ordinary people who wouldn’t have the opportunity without it then why not?

It’s done more often than you would like to believe.

Just seems tax rates should be set by elected officials and not by private business. How does the tax money go to ordinary people in this situation?

 

[TheLegend]

Just seems tax rates should be set by elected officials and not by private business. How does the tax money go to ordinary people in this situation?

I’m talking about job creation. Economy stimulation. Federal government is currently pumping billions in public monies into Arizona for a handful of companies in the tech industry.

So far what seems to be proposed here with this theme park district law is allowing for a surcharge to be added on top of existing taxes that would go back into the public coffers.

It’s very similar to what was proposed with TED, except it won’t include 8-30 years worth of tax breaks.

 

[TheLegend]

Looks like Salt Lake City has set up a webpage similar to what Tempe did for TED.
Not nearly the same amount of info but it’s a start….

Capital City Revitalization Zone

The Council is considering raising sales tax citywide by 0.5% to support development in a Sports, Entertainment, Culture, and Convention (SECC) District around the Delta Center.

capital-city-revitalization-zone-slcgov.hub.arcgis.com

 

[Skidooboy]

NHL has not even recognized them with a sub-page on their website either.

same thing happened with the Jets.
they had no Official internet presence till the draft.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

When talking about state and local public bodies debating allocating funds towards an arena project, it's hard to stay clear of politics entirely. But let's refrain from random potshots at political orientations and the like.

 

[KevFu]

I think people are overrating proximity when it comes to where the allegiances fall if the city doesn't have a team. If your city doesn't have a team located there or getting the games regularly not every fan is going to automatically pick the team that's the shortest drive.

Agree 100%. I'd think that "distance" would be the third factor.

Time and TV are by far the most important.

Time - you just couldn't "grow up" an Ottawa Senators fan in the 1980s. So a chart of "favorite team" for people in Ottawa sorted by age is going to tilt in favor of Montreal for people 50+


And what games you get on TV is obviously huge. The TV map tends to follow state/province lines a lot closer that distance to teams.

I've brought up my "Rochester NY got Sportschannel Mets/Islanders" thing dozens of times.

DETROIT and six to eight other NHL/MLB teams are closer depending on when you were counting.

 

[LPHabsFan]

I knew more Red Wings fans then I did Blue Jackets fans in Cleveland. Which wasn't hard because I knew literally no Blue Jackets fans.

I think people are overrating proximity when it comes to where the allegiances fall if the city doesn't have a team. If your city doesn't have a team located there or getting the games regularly not every fan is going to automatically pick the team that's the shortest drive.

Ok. Now apply that same logic to those who say that there is no money to be made from fans in Quebec City because they already all support the Habs.

Go.....

 

[Voight]

Doesn’t seem like much of an ask does it???

Makes TED look like a real bargain.

This comes a cross as kind of petty.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Ok. Now apply that same logic to those who say that there is no money to be made from fans in Quebec City because they already all support the Habs.

Go.....

Its NHL saying that, by not giving them a team.

 

[BigT2002]

I knew more Red Wings fans then I did Blue Jackets fans in Cleveland. Which wasn't hard because I knew literally no Blue Jackets fans.

I think people are overrating proximity when it comes to where the allegiances fall if the city doesn't have a team. If your city doesn't have a team located there or getting the games regularly not every fan is going to automatically pick the team that's the shortest drive.

That isn't a stretch for them to want to be Red Wings fans over being Blue Jackets fans. By the time Columbus got their team, the Red Wings were quite literally still in the height of a legendary dynasty mode that saw them continually kicking the crap out of every team there. This was also at a time when the Penguins didn't even know if they were going to be in Pittsburgh or not. Being a Wings fan in the late 90's and early 00's was like being a Yankees fan back then and not ever being from New York.

Expansion teams are banking on the younger generations to fall in love with them and become fans. Heck, living in Minnesota, almost everyone born before the 1990s still talks about the North Stars over the Wild. It didn't help matters any that they won the whole thing in '99, either. It takes time to build out a fanbase. Double the amount for the Blue Jackets, as was seen with the Thrashers and, to an extent, the Preds, because the expansion draft was not nearly as fruitful as it was for Vegas and Seattle. None of those 3 teams were making splashes year in and year out.

 

[TheLegend]

This comes a cross as kind of petty.

From a pure business perspective it doesn’t.

Smith isn’t hiding the fact he wants $1.6 billion in public money over the next 30 years via a sales tax increase everywhere.

At the worst… the opposition to TED only came up with $700 million in public funding (primarily through a tax break.)

 

[aqib]

Ok. Now apply that same logic to those who say that there is no money to be made from fans in Quebec City because they already all support the Habs.

Go.....

I'm literally one of the biggest advocates for QC and SouthernOntario2 on this board for the last 12 years.

 

[LPHabsFan]

I'm literally one of the biggest advocates for QC and SouthernOntario2 on this board for the last 12 years.

Yeah, that wasn't really directed at you per sey but rather anyone who uses that argument.

 

[aqib]

That isn't a stretch for them to want to be Red Wings fans over being Blue Jackets fans. By the time Columbus got their team, the Red Wings were quite literally still in the height of a legendary dynasty mode that saw them continually kicking the crap out of every team there. This was also at a time when the Penguins didn't even know if they were going to be in Pittsburgh or not. Being a Wings fan in the late 90's and early 00's was like being a Yankees fan back then and not ever being from New York.

Expansion teams are banking on the younger generations to fall in love with them and become fans. Heck, living in Minnesota, almost everyone born before the 1990s still talks about the North Stars over the Wild. It didn't help matters any that they won the whole thing in '99, either. It takes time to build out a fanbase. Double the amount for the Blue Jackets, as was seen with the Thrashers and, to an extent, the Preds, because the expansion draft was not nearly as fruitful as it was for Vegas and Seattle. None of those 3 teams were making splashes year in and year out.

Those fans that I knew were older and were fans before the Wings were good.

My point is simply that if you don't have a team in your media market you're not automatically going to pick the one that is closest. Like if you're in Indianapolis you aren't going to default to the Blackhawks because they are the nearest to you.

 

[dj4aces]

Yeah, that wasn't really directed at you per sey but rather anyone who uses that argument.

Is there anyone here who actually uses that argument? Seems like the kind of argument posted on Twitter by a bot account with a blue check than anything a real person would make. But I've also seen the posts people make about Atlanta, so I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility.

No, the number of Habs fans in QC is no reason to avoid putting a team there. I'd love to see QC join the NHL with Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix. However, looking at QC from an impartial business sense, the market is small, has limited corporate support, and there's no telling whether PKP is even interested anymore (and further, whether or not anyone else there has US$1bn burning a hole in their pocket).

I'd love nothing more than to see that blue sweater make a return. But there are hurdles to leap, and a BoG who will have to be convinced.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Is there anyone here who actually uses that argument? Seems like the kind of argument posted on Twitter by a bot account with a blue check than anything a real person would make. But I've also seen the posts people make about Atlanta, so I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility.

No, the number of Habs fans in QC is no reason to avoid putting a team there. I'd love to see QC join the NHL with Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix. However, looking at QC from an impartial business sense, the market is small, has limited corporate support, and there's no telling whether PKP is even interested anymore (and further, whether or not anyone else there has US$1bn burning a hole in their pocket).

I'd love nothing more than to see that blue sweater make a return. But there are hurdles to leap, and a BoG who will have to be convinced.

The BOG will never be convinced because they still have that "must get American TV deal" mentality. QC doesn't help that. At best, QC would be a consistent middle of the pack team. Not going to make a drastic increase on revenue but also won't bring it down.

Yes, they do. They will regular bring up market saturation specifically tied to an already served NHL market due to the Habs.

 

[dj4aces]

The BOG will never be convinced because they still have that "must get American TV deal" mentality. QC doesn't help that. At best, QC would be a consistent middle of the pack team. Not going to make a drastic increase on revenue but also won't bring it down.

Yes, they do. They will regular bring up market saturation specifically tied to an already served NHL market due to the Habs.

While you're not wrong about the league's focus on US broadcast deals, one must take care to never say never.

How many people thought Atlanta would be a part of the conversation to get an expansion team when the Thrashers moved in 2011? I might have been among the only people who had a level of optimism that the region would ever get another go at it. Today, Atlanta is firmly in the conversation, with most insiders now bullish on the idea themselves.

There's no reason at all QC can't also make the same return, regardless of the idea they're "already served" by another team. There are challenges, but they're not insurmountable.

 

[Skidooboy]

While you're not wrong about the league's focus on US broadcast deals, one must take care to never say never.

How many people thought Atlanta would be a part of the conversation to get an expansion team when the Thrashers moved in 2011? I might have been among the only people who had a level of optimism that the region would ever get another go at it. Today, Atlanta is firmly in the conversation, with most insiders now bullish on the idea themselves.

There's no reason at all QC can't also make the same return, regardless of the idea they're "already served" by another team. There are challenges, but they're not insurmountable.

Before moving the Nordiques were drawing near 15,000 average per season.
they had a pretty loyal and rabid fan base. so the market was there even when "served by another team".

the difference between Pre Cap relocation and Post Cap relocation CANNOT be overstated.

Markets that lost teams "pre cap" were substantially handicapped in ways that markets that lost teams "post cap" never were.

QC and Winnipeg were trouble and full of issues from Ownership to arenas and local politics.... but the way the league operated and the lack of transfer payments, big TV deals etc.. was a much larger impact on those teams leaving than "the market size" or attendance.... from the beginning those teams were built to fail because the NHL BOG really didn't want them to succeed. Edmonton was the exception because they got Gretzky..5 cups MADE them a success....that's it. no great one? 90% probability the Oilers failed too.

Comparing the Thrashers and dogs to those failures to Winnipeg QC and Hartford is like comparing a DC3 to a Airbus A220.

so for expansion?? the league really needs to pay attention to the sport and it's success and it's markets....

Watching Atlanta piss away a third NHL Franchise is a game some BIllionaire wants to play? fine.... I guess....Watching AZ flail around after 30 years of proof there is no market in the valley? absurd and pathetic....throwing teams hither and yon for the lucrative payments from new owners? ok but it's not going to help the game long term. because blatant cash grabs look tacky and diminish brands....

The League is doing the sport, itself, and the fans a huge disservice if it chases all that cash and but still won't put teams in markets where they actually exist.... QC.