CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Reaser]

In 2004…. A year after the Glendale arena opened and well before any of this soap opera happened.

And during the lockout.

Post I was responding to said Arizona has never hosted any of that (ASG, draft, etc.) "Mainly because you're not going to host the ASG without a legitimate NHL arena!"

Which is false. They were awarded two ASG's. That they didn't happen had nothing to do with the arena.

 

[TheLegend]

Post I was responding to said Arizona has never hosted any of that (ASG, draft, etc.) "Mainly because you're not going to host the ASG without a legitimate NHL arena!"

Which is false. They were awarded two ASG's. That they didn't happen had nothing to do with the arena.

That second one was to replace the first one and then the bankruptcy hit and everything got messy after that.

The league was going to give them one (plus a draft) had TED passed.

 

[Reaser]

That second one was to replace the first one and then the bankruptcy hit and everything got messy after that.

Yup, it was their make-up one, like SJ got because of the lockout, and ATL got because of THE' lockout and later CLM got because of the lockout, and FLA got because of covid. Yotes got there's for the Olympics. Then lost the make-up because, yup, "got messy." So definitely weren't excluded from hosting the ASG "mainly" because of their arena. That wasn't a factor, at all.

 

[TheLegend]

Yup, it was their make-up one, like SJ got because of the lockout, and ATL got because of THE' lockout and later CLM got because of the lockout, and FLA got because of covid. Yotes got there's for the Olympics. Then lost the make-up because, yup, "got messy." So definitely weren't excluded from hosting the ASG "mainly" because of their arena. That wasn't a factor, at all.

Agreed. The first two we’ve mentioned were definitely not arena related. The last one you could say it was tied to it but the franchise’s stability was the real reason.

 

[blues10]

Being contacted via email, phone , text by ticket reps is simply good sales. Even better if that customer has bought higher price seats in the past.

I attend sporting events all over North America and always get emails from the “home” team. It’s good business.

The Coyotes treated me 1st class when I was in Glendale. I have not been to Mullet. I came to a game on my honeymoon and Holwler came down before the game with a bag of swag, t-shirts, pucks, bobble heads etc…. The Yotes followed it up with a phone call to see how my experience was. The next season I flew to Arizona with another couple and bought tickets to 2 games.

Seems like good business practice to me.

 

[uhlaw97]

This franchise really needs to move to Houston and become the new Aeros.

 

[Headshot77]

TBH, if Fertitta came through with a 75% price offer and just enough smoke and mirrors to make it look full price, I think they'd go for that, so they could add that market to the league.

100% they would. But he balked at the price when it was $500mil for Vegas. So now you're asking him to spend $750mil? I want it to happen but I doubt Fertitta has had a change of heart.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

This franchise really needs to move to Houston and become the new Aeros.

Well, prepare to be disappointed.

 

[TheLegend]

Well, prepare to be disappointed.

Possibly....

Word tonight is the 100-acre parcel was discussed in an executive session of the Arizona Land Trust, and the meeting went "very well."

Listening to a replay of tonight's post game podcast right now and the segment which talks about it is about to come up. If I find anything different I'll edit this post with it.

(EDIT): After listening to Craig Morgan’s segment of the podcast this is what a state representative relayed to him In addition to what I mentioned above. This rep reached out to Craig (not the other way around.)

- The parcel is at the NW corner of Scottsdale Road and the Loop 101.
- The representative felt the entire deal could be wrapped up within 3 months.

The location was pretty much already known, but the 3-month time frame was a little surprising.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

So, say this deal for the 100 acres goes through. Is Meruelo prepared to move forward without a major subsidy? If not, would one have to be voted on?

 

[Baby Doaner]

Oh man. The meltdown here is going to be epic once this deal gets done. Can’t wait!

 

[stealth1]

Oh man. The meltdown here is going to be epic once this deal gets done. Can’t wait!

For me if this deal gets done, it's up to people of Pheonix to prove that hockey works. Now they will an Arena in good location.

My issue with Phoenix and lot of these teams is the amount of fairweather fans they have. They show up when the team is winning but as soon as they go back down the standings the majority stay away again.

I don't expect teams to sell out when they are losing but expect more than 10,000 a game.

 

[Baby Doaner]

For me if this deal gets done, it's up to people of Pheonix to prove that hockey works. Now they will an Arena in good location.

My issue with Phoenix and lot of these teams is the amount of fairweather fans they have. They show up when the team is winning but as soon as they go back down the standings the majority stay away again.

I don't expect teams to sell out when they are losing but expect more than 10,000 a game.

I can’t speak for other fans, but I’ve been there since 1996. I was drawn to hockey due to my father being from Detroit and watching hockey with him. I was hooked. Greatest sport ever. It baffles me that other fans would ever want another team to be taken away. But it is what it is.

 

[Llama19]

This team has changed hands 4 times since bankruptcy. Local billionaires have had their shot. There is a reason why they have sat it out.

The reason people came out of the woodwork for the Senators is because they knew hockey in Ottawa is a good investment.

Interesting the changing hands since bankruptcy...but who's hands is this franchise really in...

The franchise is still listed under the IceArizona moniker...

Remember when the NHL 'sold' the franchise to the original IceArizona (Gosbee, LeBlanc) group...

"A source close to the negotiations, who traded candor for anonymity, revealed the purchase price as $170 million. The capital structure would consist of RS&E putting in $45 million of equity, Fortress Investment Group lending $120 million (to be repaid by the fee Glendale taxpayers are going to pay the team to run the arena), and an $85 million loan from the NHL.

The $80 million the total capital investment ($250 million) exceeds the enterprise value of the purchase ($170 million) will be used as working capital. In other words, no capital calls even if the team loses a lot of money over the next few years."

Then...in 2015...Glendale was trying to get out of the arena management lease...but got outplayed by Bettman...

"Documents acquired by Forbes via a Freedom of Information Act request with the City of Glendale, Arizona, show that the Coyotes Gila River Arena Management Company had $177 million of debt as of June, 2014. Of that $177 million, $79 million was a loan from Fortress and $85 million was a loan from the NHL that were used to finance the purchase of the team.

The Fortress debt is at the center of Glendale's possible attempt to get out of its lease with the Coyotes. But the city has a big hole in its case: The owners of the Coyotes have refinanced the Fortress debt. That's right--it's gone. All of it.

During the past year NHL commissioner Gary Bettman approved replacing the Fortress debt NHL debt. The Fortress debt carried a much higher interest rate about three times more than the league's loan.

That is huge for the Coyotes. Not just because the FOIA request shows the team lost $35 million during the 2014-15 season."

So...has...at that time...$177 million (or more) debt...when Barroway 'bought' out in 2017...when the debt was reported at $250 with Barroway 'seeking' a $500 million valuation...then in 2019...Meruelo purchased 95% of the franchise...was the 'debt' paid off by Meruelo...or did Meruelo just take over the debt payments still under the IceArizona name...because the original IceArizona agreement...did have that seven-year 'no move' clause...that has expired...under Meruelo's 'ownership'...

If Meruelo has not paid that debt...then the NHL could place that 'debt' call...that all franchise debts are due...now...leaving the NHL controlling the franchise...once again...

 

[stealth1]

I can’t speak for other fans, but I’ve been there since 1996. I was drawn to hockey due to my father being from Detroit and watching hockey with him. I was hooked. Greatest sport ever. It baffles me that other fans would ever want another team to be taken away. But it is what it is.

I don't like seeing teams taken away, especially hockey. I have been a Sabres fan since I was 9 , I'm 44 now. All I want to see in these markets is the passion that happens in other cities.

My issues with Phoenix all goes back to the amount of excuses on why fans stay away. It's location, not winning, too many other things to do. As much as it is annoying to constantly hear move the team, it's just as annoying to constantly hear the excuses.

Its why I said if this new plan works out and the arena is centrally located, it's time to prove the doubters wrong.

 

[BMN]

time frame was a little surprising.

As a local, is that one of those things that makes you think "Oh good, all parties involved understand the importance of having a good plan in prompt fashion!" or "Crap, that's the type of thing people just throw out because it sounds nice?"

From the outside, I only speak the language of "two weeks" as I assume most others do.....

 

[Skidooboy]

I don't like seeing teams taken away, especially hockey. I have been a Sabres fan since I was 9 , I'm 44 now. All I want to see in these markets is the passion that happens in other cities.

My issues with Phoenix all goes back to the amount of excuses on why fans stay away. It's location, not winning, too many other things to do. As much as it is annoying to constantly hear move the team, it's just as annoying to constantly hear the excuses.

Its why I said if this new plan works out and the arena is centrally located, it's time to prove the doubters wrong.

100% won't matter.
Phoenix is not and has never been a viable market. multiple owners across multiple leagues and multiple teams multiple locations in several decades have tried.... and never once been successful. Even the NCAA teams which are good teams with good records over the years, have crap attendance compared to other "big" hockey programs.

hockey has not worked in the AZ market. EVER.

No ticket sails, no merch sales to speak of, no TV views, no corporate support, no advertising, not enough fan support.

Phoenix has fans and it's sad they will lose the team....but the general public can't be bothered to go to a game.

When you ask any of the Phoenix market "experts" on these boards they have many excuses....but no actual answers other than "new owner" "new Arena" "Win games and a Cup"
They then moan on about location..and ownership..and explain that somehow driving 40 mins of Arizona freeway is "Difficult" but the same distance or farther in Toronto or Montreal in January snow is "easy"..... and then shift goalposts and wander off into fuzzy memories and imaginary narratives of bygone owners who also didn't want to keep the team running after years of failure.

 

[rt]

 

[LeafalCrusader]

This franchise really needs to move to Houston and become the new Aeros.

Space Coyotes would be my pick.

 

[dj4aces]

(EDIT): After listening to Craig Morgan’s segment of the podcast this is what a state representative relayed to him In addition to what I mentioned above. This rep reached out to Craig (not the other way around.)

- The parcel is at the NW corner of Scottsdale Road and the Loop 101.
- The representative felt the entire deal could be wrapped up within 3 months.

The location was pretty much already known, but the 3-month time frame was a little surprising.

This is good news if it plays out this way -- at least in terms of acquiring the land. Is there any plan in place in terms of building an arena, such as funding for the project?

 

[GKJ]

For me if this deal gets done, it's up to people of Pheonix to prove that hockey works. Now they will an Arena in good location.

My issue with Phoenix and lot of these teams is the amount of fairweather fans they have. They show up when the team is winning but as soon as they go back down the standings the majority stay away again.

I don't expect teams to sell out when they are losing but expect more than 10,000 a game.

That happens everywhere no matter what anyone tells you.

 

[oldunclehue]

Glad the committee meeting went well and 3 months is a great timeline. Now just hope AM has the cash on hand and investors to build two multi-billion dollar entertainment districts in two different cities.

Exciting for the folks there after some shots over the bow for the last few days!

 

[Stumbledore]

Well, I worked media relations in college sports for like 20+ years... Yes, when you work for a team, you represent the brand.

But (a) different people can change the image of a brand.

While not the direct parallel I'm making because he wasn't owner/CEO, but I don't think you can dispute that Michael Jordan completely changed Nike (and by the converse the fall of Converse! word play!)

How about the image of Al Arbor's Islanders (dynasty!) vs Mike Milbury's Islanders (Cluster!). Or Vinik/Yzerman with the Tampa Bay Lightning?

And (b) different people have different effects in negotiations.

The Oakland A's would be a great example of both. Their image and reputation was scrappy underdogs during the Steve Schott and Lew Wolfe ownership eras. But Fisher basically made MLB pull their revenue sharing and Oakland fans chant "Sell the Team" and the mayor of Las Vegas say the team should stay in Oakland.

This deserves two thumbs up just for the wordplay!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

100% won't matter.
Phoenix is not and has never been a viable market. multiple owners across multiple leagues and multiple teams multiple locations in several decades have tried.... and never once been successful. Even the NCAA teams which are good teams with good records over the years, have crap attendance compared to other "big" hockey programs.

hockey has not worked in the AZ market. EVER.

No ticket sails, no merch sales to speak of, no TV views, no corporate support, no advertising, not enough fan support.

Phoenix has fans and it's sad they will lose the team....but the general public can't be bothered to go to a game.

When you ask any of the Phoenix market "experts" on these boards they have many excuses....but no actual answers other than "new owner" "new Arena" "Win games and a Cup"
They then moan on about location..and ownership..and explain that somehow driving 40 mins of Arizona freeway is "Difficult" but the same distance or farther in Toronto or Montreal in January snow is "easy"..... and then shift goalposts and wander off into fuzzy memories and imaginary narratives of bygone owners who also didn't want to keep the team running after years of failure.

You’re right skippydoodleboy! Fortunately the NHL sees it different and has been intent on growing our great game. That could change at any moment, but I’m proud of the dedication they have shown to the greatest game on earth.

 

[dj4aces]

Friedman's 32 Thoughts podcast starts off by discussing the Coyotes. I'm not sure when these things are recorded, but in case anyone is interested in hearing what they have to say, here you go: