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CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

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GreenHornet said:
That's probably true, but I think the current hockey capacity at Gas South Arena is only about 9,000 (down from a little over 11,000 at one point). The seats immediately behind the goal to the Zamboni end of the rink hasn't been used for several years, and IIRC, that had to do as much with a maintenance issue as it was for being needed. I don't know if that maintenance issue was ever addressed. Plus, the arena is more than 20 years old now, and will probably need some renovations soon.
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The website (which probably hasn't been updated in a long time) says it seats 13K for hockey.
 
Tom ServoMST3K said:
And that is the exact "brand" I am talking about.

They tried to sell a municipality parking rights the municipality already owned. That's gonna do damage when you're trying to partner with a municipality in the future.

I am not talking about getting butts in seats - I happen to believe the fact there are any fans left after a decade-plus of this mess is impressive - I'm talking about the brand's ability to enter into a successful partnership with a municipality to build a new arena.
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Ah, that makes a lot more sense. But people know that they're dealing with people, not the Coyotes brand. And the people in municipality change, too, via elections.


The craziest thing to me is that the NHL hasn't called up Tim Leiweke and said "We want you on board with arena efforts in Phoenix. The Coyotes and AEG can partner... " considering just how many things they've gotten done.
 
Everyone missed my point re: Houston.

I wasn't advocating for moving the Yotes to Houston and yes I'm very aware of the logistics that have kept the NHL out of Houston.

My point was: if you want to cavaliery throw around a phrase like "_x_ southwest market is too big for the NHL to do without," consider the league has been doing without Houston up to this point and the league hasn't collapsed upon itself. Nor would it collapse if the Yotes had to leave. The logic of the sentence falls upon itself.

If they *did* leave, I wouldn't think of them as more (or less) important a priority than Houston.

Put another way, you wouldn't say "Orlando is too big a southeast market to ignore" when Atlanta is sitting right there without a team. You'd need more logic than that to support the case.
 
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KevFu said:
This reminds me of the Reddit thing where someone asked "What if each sports team was named after the animal species most prevalent in their area?" And someone came back with a full list of: Boston Ants, Toronto Ants, New York Ants, Tampa Bay Ants..."

1) The point of team names isn't "oh sure, we got that." It's what you're known for.

2) The NHL covets Houston, but they haven't had an arena they could get into. They didn't need "a billionaire" like most other cities, they needed one specific billionaire (the Rockets owner) because of the terms of his lease.

3) And that's all the more reason why leaving Phoenix is a terrible idea. You don't know what they're building next, and who's going to control what team down the line. Everyone wants the Coyotes to "fix it," so the search for an arena with the threat of losing a team is going to go a lot faster/better than trying to build a hockey arena for an expansion team in the future with no sense of urgency.

4) An absolute ton of expansion selection is timing. Look at baseball. Three cities lost expansion bids in 1991 (when MLB added Miami and Denver for the 1993 season) and built new minor league stadiums. And just four years later, when MLB added two more teams to get Tampa off their backs, those cities were just OUT and MLB had to bend over backward for Phoenix (NL team) because they -- while technically having some, for all intents and purposes really - had no other candidates.
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1) Maybe the Coyotes can be called the "C's". That way if the A's bunk with the Bees as their temp home, then they will have the A's, Bees, and C's.

2) I don't get why someone can't build an arena in a suburban county.

3) Down the line you have a chance that when the Suns need a new arena they make it for both sports. This way you will have 3 arenas and the other 2 are managed by global powerhouses

4) Just stop. The only runners up from 93 that didn't reapply were Charlotte, Sacramento, and Washington. They were replaced by Northern Virgina and Vancouver. That's in addition to Nashville and Buffalo (Orlando applied too but they would have been redundant with Tampa). NoVA,, VAncouver, and Nashville would have been fine. Buffalo of course they dodged a bullet. Also, how did they bend over backwards for Phoenix? It was a strong bid
 
oldunclehue said:

Nothing on the official agenda in regards to land purchase by AM or companies.

Also of note some land recently sold was appraised at $15,700,000 and sold for $32,300,000 at auction.

So double its appraised value.....what would happen on 200 acres or the 100 acres?
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Friedman's written "32 Thoughts" column mentioned this, but also said the matter could be brought up despite it not being on the official agenda.

The only questions there are:
1. When will the Coyotes be able to bid?
2. Will the Coyotes even win the auction?
 
dj4aces said:
Friedman's written "32 Thoughts" column mentioned this, but also said the matter could be brought up despite it not being on the official agenda.

The only questions there are:
1. When will the Coyotes be able to bid?
2. Will the Coyotes even win the auction?
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1. I think they are required to pay for land-assessment, environmental studies etc prior to an auction approval.
2. Looking at auctions...bidding varies and prime land can go up significantly from the appraised value. 200 acres as rumored could cost a very significant amount but speculation is that the size of the land may scare off other bidders. But new rumors are that AM balked at the cost of 200 acres and now may be asking for 100 acres.

- this could make for a messy bidding process as more suitors may want 100 acres vs 200 acres. The land in question looks like very prime real estate

Someone from the area like TheLegend will have much more expertise in this but I'd venture a guess hes getting sick of the Main Board threads about this topic.
 
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oldunclehue said:
1. I think they are required to pay for land-assessment, environmental studies etc prior to an auction approval.
2. Looking at auctions...bidding varies and prime land can go up significantly from the appraised value. 200 acres as rumored could cost a very significant amount but speculation is that the size of the land may scare off other bidders. But new rumors are that AM balked at the cost of 200 acres and now may be asking for 100 acres.

- this could make for a messy bidding process as more suitors may want 100 acres vs 200 acres. The land in question looks like very prime real estate

Someone from the area like TheLegend will have much more expertise in this but I'd venture a guess hes getting sick of the Main Board threads about this topic.
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Still not really familiar with how state land auctions work.... there was quite a lot of info on it posted up thread though and might help.

But.... what I understand is.... the Coyotes originally applied for 200 acres. The appraisal came back and it was decided that it would be too much for what they want to do (which is why you do appraisals in the first place.)

So they cut the size in half which requires a completely new appraisal. Which has not come back yet and is why it didn't make the meeting agenda today. And the earliest they could possibly meet again (barring being able to call a special meeting) is next month.

Auctions run roughly for 10 weeks. So we're adding that to the timeline and now you're getting towards beyond the time the league (and Coyotes) wanted to have a plan in place.

Meanwhile you have SLC knocking on the league's front door wanting to start an application. Atlanta is also close to going forward on their plans.

But the Coyotes are still sitting in limbo.

There's been talk about the league forcing Meruelo to sell. But it's ironic that the guy who started this whole Coyotes saga/drama back in 2008-09 by convincing Jerry Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy court would come out now and say (posted above) that Meruelo has the leverage with that.

(The circle is complete :laugh:)



(EDIT: Also learned the NHL is currently having an Executive Meeting on this)
 
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TheLegend said:
Still not really familiar with how state land auctions work.... there was quite a lot of info on it posted up thread though and might help.

But.... what I understand is.... the Coyotes originally applied for 200 acres. The appraisal came back and it was decided that it would be too much for what they want to do (which is why you do appraisals in the first place.)

So they cut the size in half which requires a completely new appraisal. Which has not come back yet and is why it didn't make the meeting agenda today. And the earliest they could possibly meet again (barring being able to call a special meeting) is next month.

Auctions run roughly for 10 weeks. So we're adding that to the timeline and now you're getting towards beyond the time the league (and Coyotes) wanted to have a plan in place.

Meanwhile you have SLC knocking on the league's front door wanting to start an application. Atlanta is also close to going forward on their plans.

But the Coyotes are still sitting in limbo.

There's been talk about the league forcing Meruelo to sell. But it's ironic that the guy who started this whole Coyotes saga/drama back in 2008-09 by convincing Jerry Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy court would come out now and say (posted above) that Meruelo has the leverage with that.

(The circle is complete :laugh:)
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Do you think busting it down to 100 acres will mean more interest in the auction from other parties?

What do you foresee 100 acres of prime land being valued at and go for at auction?
 
oldunclehue said:
Do you think busting it down to 100 acres will mean more interest in the auction from other parties?

What do you foresee 100 acres of prime land being valued at and go for at auction?
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Depends on the location of parcel.

Llama posted a recent article where 68 acres went for $84 million from an opening price of $59 million.
 
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BMN said:
Everyone missed my point re: Houston.

I wasn't advocating for moving the Yotes to Houston and yes I'm very aware of the logistics that have kept the NHL out of Houston.

My point was: if you want to cavaliery throw around a phrase like "_x_ southwest market is too big for the NHL to do without," consider the league has been doing without Houston up to this point and the league hasn't collapsed upon itself. Nor would it collapse if the Yotes had to leave. The logic of the sentence falls upon itself.

If they *did* leave, I wouldn't think of them as more (or less) important a priority than Houston.

Put another way, you wouldn't say "Orlando is too big a southeast market to ignore" when Atlanta is sitting right there without a team. You'd need more logic than that to support the case.
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Right, but the NHL would rather be in a market that has 4.5+ million people than not be in that market.

Bringing up Atlanta, Seattle and Houston as proof the NHL is "fine" with not being in that market completely ignores the fact that every market that big which had an arena deal and asked for a team has gotten one.

That literally happened with Miami and Anaheim, where the NHL had a plan for 28 teams and inserted them because they asked.

First 1990s expansion: San Jose (the Bay Area).
Seattle WAS a front-runner for expansion before backstabbing partner, and once the arena deal was done, here come the Kraken.
Atlanta's won expansion teams TWICE now and is talking about a third.

And as you know, Houston's three bids, no arena in the 1990s. If Tilman Fertitta was willing to pay full price for a Houston expansion team, you think the league is saying no?
 
KevFu said:
And as you know, Houston's three bids, no arena in the 1990s. If Tilman Fertitta was willing to pay full price for a Houston expansion team, you think the league is saying no?
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TBH, if Fertitta came through with a 75% price offer and just enough smoke and mirrors to make it look full price, I think they'd go for that, so they could add that market to the league.
 
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TheLegend said:
Depends on the location of parcel.

Llama posted a recent article where 68 acres went for $84 million from an opening price of $59 million.
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It appears from past auction outcomes that land often goes for the million dollars an acre range in the area or more. Only one auction last year went lower than that million an acres.

So there is potential that AM would have to pay $100 million plus for the land plus the cost of studies etc.

Could be looking at a fair chunk of change just to get the land....then the real costs start up.
 
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KevFu said:
Once again: In Mullet Arena, with only 4600 seats, season ticket revenue for the Coyotes went UP 50% compared to Glendale. A lot of people were excited to have a team in the center of the market.
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Where are you getting these numbers?

TheLegend said:
Still not really familiar with how state land auctions work.... there was quite a lot of info on it posted up thread though and might help.

But.... what I understand is.... the Coyotes originally applied for 200 acres. The appraisal came back and it was decided that it would be too much for what they want to do (which is why you do appraisals in the first place.)

So they cut the size in half which requires a completely new appraisal. Which has not come back yet and is why it didn't make the meeting agenda today. And the earliest they could possibly meet again (barring being able to call a special meeting) is next month.

Auctions run roughly for 10 weeks. So we're adding that to the timeline and now you're getting towards beyond the time the league (and Coyotes) wanted to have a plan in place.

Meanwhile you have SLC knocking on the league's front door wanting to start an application. Atlanta is also close to going forward on their plans.

But the Coyotes are still sitting in limbo.

There's been talk about the league forcing Meruelo to sell. But it's ironic that the guy who started this whole Coyotes saga/drama back in 2008-09 by convincing Jerry Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy court would come out now and say (posted above) that Meruelo has the leverage with that.

(The circle is complete :laugh:)



(EDIT: Also learned the NHL is currently having an Executive Meeting on this)
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For those of us who weren't privy, can you please fill us in on Rodier? Thanks.
 
Tom ServoMST3K said:
And that is the exact "brand" I am talking about.

They tried to sell a municipality parking rights the municipality already owned. That's gonna do damage when you're trying to partner with a municipality in the future.

I am not talking about getting butts in seats - I happen to believe the fact there are any fans left after a decade-plus of this mess is impressive - I'm talking about the brand's ability to enter into a successful partnership with a municipality to build a new arena.
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So does not paying your bills on time. Or taxes. Or hiring the former city attorney. But sticking with the "Now" brand, the wanna-help but we need assurances crowd (forget the NIMBY locals for now) weren't shy about voicing their concerns.

I had a discussion with another poster in another forum about returning to Glendale. I told them that's literally salted earth. But, as we've all seen, ANYTHING is possible regarding this saga and I posted what I felt it would take to return to Glendale.

* A Billionaire owner with a staggering amount of liquidity in lieu of their net worth
* If a single owner (above) is not available, then a group with a staggering amount of liquidity in lieu of their net worth
* ZERO CONCESSIONS FROM THE CITY OF GLENDALE
* 100% Transparency with not only Glendale councilmembers, but the fan base as well
* Foster a true partnership foundation with the City of Glendale

Hell, you can remove Glendale from that list and put "__________" (fill in the blank). As that's what it would take in the Valley, as a whole, it appears.
 
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TheLegend said:
There's been talk about the league forcing Meruelo to sell. But it's ironic that the guy who started this whole Coyotes saga/drama back in 2008-09 by convincing Jerry Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy court would come out now and say (posted above) that Meruelo has the leverage with that.

(The circle is complete :laugh:)



(EDIT: Also learned the NHL is currently having an Executive Meeting on this)
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I doubt that's actually him. Its an unverified account and there are a few accounts with that name same profile pic.

Boris Zubov said:
Where are you getting these numbers?


For those of us who weren't privy, can you please fill us in on Rodier? Thanks.
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He was Balsillie's lawyer who orchestrated the whole bankruptcy back in 2009.
 
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Boris Zubov said:
If the Muruelo can't afford the 200 acres, does he have investors that are going to finance the ED?

Is there a source that shows the team is cash flow positive? Didn't XG talk about Muruelo losing at least $10M after the first season there?
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you have to remember that nhl owners lost a boat load of money during covid.... they still paid full nhl salaries...but in return they froze the cap even though league revenues exploded so all teams are temporarily making more money until everything balances out again which is soon.
 
Boris Zubov said:
For those of us who weren't privy, can you please fill us in on Rodier? Thanks.
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Rodier was Jim Balsillie's front man back when he was trying to get an NHL franchise.

In Nashville (going by memory here) he was planting stories to the local media trying to create a rift between the team and the city. Making it difficult for Craig Leopold (who owned them then) to work on selling the team to an owner who'd keep them there. Preds fans could expand on this much better.

In Arizona, he came up with the plan to convince Jerry Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy court rather than taking the NHL's prearranged deal to buy the Coyotes from Moyes for $138 million. Giving Ballsillie a chance to grab the team and move them to Hamilton getting around the league's bylaws. The result which set this (going on its 15th year) saga off.
 
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Ernie said:
Debt.

It was reported that Meruelo actually put very little down when he "bought" the franchise, with the NHL holding most (or all) of the debt.

With all the losses over the years, you can't imagine that debt has decreased, and finding another source to fund that debt would be prohibitively expensive.

You can bet that the NHL put into the terms of the agreement that they can call the loan and take over ownership at will. If Meruelo can find a local buyer to pay more than the outstanding debt for the franchise, he can pocket the difference. But that seems unlikely.
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Reported by who? Man, people. If you are going to post something, please provide a source.
 
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