CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[aqib]

The Jazz are much more popular in SLC then the Coyotes are in Phoenix. A new arena would be pitched as a new home for the Jazz, and would likely have a much easier time getting approved.

Remember the Seahawks stadium was pitched as keeping the Seahawks AND getting an MLS team. Sure the Seahawks were the main selling point but adding soccer got a few more people on board that put it over the top. Same thing here. Some people might be like "Delta Center is fine we don't need a new arena" but there will be some hockey fans that support a new arena to put it over the top.

 

[Major4Boarding]

The Coyotes brand is toxic in Canada, not Arizona.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

The Coyotes are literally the only ones who haven't done ANY of that.

Mainly because you're not going to host the ASG without a legitimate NHL arena!






I think Salt Lake's statement about an NHL team needs context to consider what's happening in Utah right now RE: Olympic bid/project bidding.

Salt Lake and Utah have promised the taxpayers they won't create an Olympic tax to fund the games. So their plan is funding projects that have a permanent purpose, for 30+ years instead of 14 days, but which ALSO will be part of the Olympic bid.

So you have one billionaire lobbying for an MLB stadium that can double as a medal ceremony venue during the Olympics, and he's posting billboards saying "Utah wants the A's" as a temp home before they go to Vegas; with a new SLC expansion team starting simultaneously with the Vegas As.

THAT'S the backdrop of Smith saying SLC wants an NHL team.

I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Maybe I'm reading this wrong but, to my eyes, it reads that Ryan Smith's expressed interest is window-dressing?

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

It's a little over 10,000ish at the moment. Sections 110-113 haven't been fully used since that fan fell through one of them. I am sure Gwinnett county would fund their fix/replacements, though, if they were told they were going to host 3 seasons of NHL hockey until The Gathering could be built.

That arena would be totally ready to go by next season.

 

[Reaser]

The Coyotes are literally the only ones who haven't done ANY of that.

Mainly because you're not going to host the ASG without a legitimate NHL arena!

They've been awarded two ASG's, though.

2006 didn't happen because of the post-lockout CBA and it being an Olympic year.

2011 didn't happen because the ownership situation and no one trusted that it'd be figured out by the time the ASG came around so they moved it.

So they WERE going to host the ASG in their arena in Glendale.

 

[GreenHornet]

Alls good.

Ownership group: Krauss Sports and Entertainment
New arena: At the Gathering
Temporary: Gas South Arena (home of the ECHL Gladiators, 13K seating)

Links to all this is in the Atlanta thread on the NHL board. Didn't you post in that thread?

Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, I don't think so.

There is probably more than one potential fly in the ointment, and the Gladiators may be the biggest one, since they signed just a three-year lease (with an option for a fourth, I think) at GSA last summer.

Is it possible GSA can accommodate both teams? Sure, but it could lead to squabbles among both ownership groups regarding prime dates.

Is it possible that Krause and Co. work out some sort of deal with Gladiators owners Alex Campbell and Anson Carter (yes, THAT Anson Carter, for those who don't already know and were wondering)? Mind you this is just a thought experiment, but let's say, for example, that each group buys in a small percentage into the other -- for example, the Glads buy, say, 2-5 percent of the NHL team and Krause and Co. purchase about the same percentage of the Glads. And maybe they can help facilitate the Glads moving up to become the NHL team's AHL affiliate, which could open up some cross-promotion possibilities. Again, I suppose it's possible, but I don't pretend to have enough understanding of business to know if such a deal would be even remotely feasible, much less how it would work.

Besides, somehow I don't think GSA would have much interest in hosting both teams, even if it would be only temporary until The Gathering arena was built, since tying up 75-80 regular season dates, plus potential playoff dates, would take away from its availability to concerts and other more lucrative events. If memory serves, wasn't it just a couple of years ago that GSA screwed the Glads out of hosting home games in the first round of the playoffs because an ice show had already been booked for that week?

Is it possible the arena and the new NHL could sweep aside the Gladiators? Sure, but that would just as surely lead to litigation that neither side really needs. Besides, it would be a REALLY bad start for Krause and Co.'s relationship with metro Atlanta's hockey community.

Let's also not forget that Krause has been quite vocal about pursuing an expansion team and not being interested in a relo. I suppose he could change his mind, but I don't know.

To summarize, sure it's possible Atlanta could be a destination for the Coyotes IF they end up leaving Arizona, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, I don't think so.

There is probably more than one potential fly in the ointment, and the Gladiators may be the biggest one, since they signed just a three-year lease (with an option for a fourth, I think) at GSA last summer.

Is it possible GSA can accommodate both teams? Sure, but it could lead to squabbles among both ownership groups regarding prime dates.

Is it possible that Krause and Co. work out some sort of deal with Gladiators owners Alex Campbell and Anson Carter (yes, THAT Anson Carter, for those who don't already know and were wondering)? Mind you this is just a thought experiment, but let's say, for example, that each group buys in a small percentage into the other -- for example, the Glads buy, say, 2-5 percent of the NHL team and Krause and Co. purchase about the same percentage of the Glads. And maybe they can help facilitate the Glads moving up to become the NHL team's AHL affiliate, which could open up some cross-promotion possibilities. Again, I suppose it's possible, but I don't pretend to have enough understanding of business to know if such a deal would be even remotely feasible, much less how it would work.

Besides, somehow I don't think GSA would have much interest in hosting both teams, even if it would be only temporary until The Gathering arena was built, since tying up 75-80 regular season dates, plus potential playoff dates, would take away from its availability to concerts and other more lucrative events. If memory serves, wasn't it just a couple of years ago that GSA screwed the Glads out of hosting home games in the first round of the playoffs because an ice show had already been booked for that week?

Is it possible the arena and the new NHL could sweep aside the Gladiators? Sure, but that would just as surely lead to litigation that neither side really needs. Besides, it would be a REALLY bad start for Krause and Co.'s relationship with metro Atlanta's hockey community.

Let's also not forget that Krause has been quite vocal about pursuing an expansion team and not being interested in a relo. I suppose he could change his mind, but I don't know.

To summarize, sure it's possible Atlanta could be a destination for the Coyotes IF they end up leaving Arizona, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

This is all very good points. Though, I'd hope, IF the potential of any relocation was on the table, Krause's team and Carter's team, along with arena management would meet often. You never know....

 

[Headshot77]

Yet Houston is a two major sports team town and Arizona has four. And had lost their NFL team even though Texas is known to be a football mecca starting from the high schools up.

Astros, Rockets, Texans.

???

 

[sneakytitz]

Besides, somehow I don't think GSA would have much interest in hosting both teams, even if it would be only temporary until The Gathering arena was built, since tying up 75-80 regular season dates, plus potential playoff dates, would take away from its availability to concerts and other more lucrative events.

NHL games would be far more lucrative for that complex compared to Jurassic Park Live or Blippi or Cirque de Soleil or whatever else is there between Swarm and Gladiators games. And you get that for 41 dates? Gwinnett County (owners) would jump on that in a heartbeat.

Gladiators don't have exclusivity rights to the arena re: hockey. Scheduling would be between the ECHL/NHL/GSA.

 

[TheLegend]

Astros, Rockets, Texans.

???

Whoops... I completely forgot about the Texans. Liked the Oilers and the "Bum" Phillips days.

Thanks!!

 

[GreenHornet]

This is all very good points. Though, I'd hope, IF the potential of any relocation was on the table, Krause's team and Carter's team, along with arena management would meet often. You never know....

I would hope so, too, and I have to think they will (if they aren't meeting already). I'm just saying that depending on when we get some sort of definitive answer to what's going to happen with the Coyotes, I don't think any sort of deal could be worked out that quickly for next year (which is the likely timetable IF the 'Yotes move).

 

[Voight]

I don't think they can "force" Muerello unless he broke a league rule or there was some clause in his purchase agreement (like the NBA had with the Bucks). Or unless they make a deal of some kind where he gets a shot at an expansion team in the future kind of like the Browns/Baltimore deal. Maybe something like you sell this team to SLC and you get an expansion team in 2028 if you have a new arena built

They could find some obscure rule he broke. Not saying there is one, but you never know.

Heck, maybe they'll go after him for failing to pay his vendors and thus putting a black mark on the league.

Where there's a will there's a way.

Here's the thing re: the "too big" argument:

Houston is a bigger market, always has been, has always had more corporations, and is always growing to stay ahead of Phoenix in market ranking. If there is such a thing as a market being "too big" to ignore, then I guess the NHL has been screwed this entire century and before for not being in Houston. And flat out moronic for not finding a way to make it happen in the 1990s.

It goes without saying the NHL is better off if it works in Phoenix. But the idea that "this market is too big for the NHL to not have a team there in perpetuity" doesn't hold weight so long as Houston doesn't have a team.

Not to mention Seattle has the 15th biggest metro area in the US and the NHL ignored it until a few years ago.

 

[dj4aces]

Friedman’s 32 thoughts being discussed on Vancouver Sports radio. League might force Muerello to sell for purposes of relocation.

Is there a recording of it somewhere? I know some radio stations record their segments or shows, so I'd love to hear it. Friedman's written 32 is interesting, so I fully expect the podcast tomorrow to be just as interesting.

 

[Voight]

Hasn't SEG's (SLC group) pitch to the NHL been that the Delta Center would function as a temporary home for the team until a new arena could be completed? From what is publicly available, I see no formal steps towards a new arena in SLC (and all we've heard is that it's only been a meeting in Draper and conversations with SLC's mayor), so why is SLC the leading relocation candidate? You trade 4,500 fans per game for 14,000 on the hopes that an arena deal could be reached? Is that not the main issue in Arizona, just with 10,000 extra fans a game?

If the NHL takes over, I just don't see this team relocating to SLC without an arena deal in place.

SLC is getting the 2034 Winter Olympics and with that a new arena will come. Its a formality at this point.

 

[Voight]

Right, which means that sometime in the next decade they'll likely be building a state-of-the-art hockey arena. They can do it a little earlier if they want to, nothing is stopping them, and even if they didn't, there's a more concrete guarantee that such arena will exist than they currently have in their existing location.

It'll be easier to sell the public the idea of using taxpayer funds when it'll house two pro sports teams as well.

 

[GreenHornet]

That arena would be totally ready to go by next season.

That's probably true, but I think the current hockey capacity at Gas South Arena is only about 9,000 (down from a little over 11,000 at one point). The seats immediately behind the goal to the Zamboni end of the rink hasn't been used for several years, and IIRC, that had to do as much with a maintenance issue as it was for being needed. I don't know if that maintenance issue was ever addressed. Plus, the arena is more than 20 years old now, and will probably need some renovations soon.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

The Coyotes brand is toxic in Canada, not Arizona.

Im talking about being Unceremoniously kicked out of the Glendale arena, and then completely blown out in a referendum in Tempe - nothing to do with Canada.

 

[dj4aces]

Astros, Rockets, Texans.

???

I'm gonna be honest with you, and despite my age being freely available here for all to see, I'm gonna show it a bit, but...

I don't often think of the Texans as being a Houston team. I still remember the Houston Oilers.

 

[TheLegend]

I would hope so, too, and I have to think they will (if they aren't meeting already). I'm just saying that depending on when we get some sort of definitive answer to what's going to happen with the Coyotes, I don't think any sort of deal could be worked out that quickly for next year (which is the likely timetable IF the 'Yotes move).

Yotes have a place for next year already paid for (Mullett).

There's more stuff popping up out there. Wyshynski is quote tweeting Richard Rodier now.

 

[TheLegend]

Im talking about being Unceremoniously kicked out of the Glendale arena, and then completely blown out in a referendum in Tempe - nothing to do with Canada.

It's about the narrative being preached. It's true that Glendale did not renew the annual lease with the Coyotes. But there's a more truthful angle to that which does not get acknowledged much.

 

[KevFu]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Maybe I'm reading this wrong but, to my eyes, it reads that Ryan Smith's expressed interest is window-dressing?

I don't think it's window dressing. I'm saying that everyone here, being NHL fans first and foremost, view Smith's actions in the context of what it means to the NHL (WRT the Coyotes).

When you view it from the backdrop of what's happening in Utah, with two different billionaires both trying to expand their sports empires and both making headlines, that changes things significantly.

The motives behind the Smith announcement might not be first and only "The NHL lining this guy up to take the Coyotes."

The aspect of "Smith is trying to line up his project funding AHEAD OF the Miller's project" could be a huge factor. The "We can take a team right now" part matches what Miller's "Big League Utah" just put up billboards for (temporary site of the A's).


And I want the record to reflect I'm not saying "you're all wrong about what's really happening." I'm saying we need to consider those components, and we'll all find out eventually.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It's about the narrative being preached. It's true that Glendale did not renew the annual lease with the Coyotes. But there's a more truthful angle to that which does not get acknowledged much.

I would have said the bridge/brand had been burned only in Glendale, but the result of the referendum and the rougue's gallery of owners has to mean something.

Obviously the relationship with Glendale deteriorated, and there's definitely fault on both sides for that - I tend to blame the Coyotes more, because of the shakedown the NHL pulled off in 2009 or 2010 - and the fact owners kept trying to (imo) scam Glendale over the years. The parking plan was particularly bad.

 

[GreenHornet]

I'm gonna be honest with you, and despite my age being freely available here for all to see, I'm gonna show it a bit, but...

I don't often think of the Texans as being a Houston team. I still remember the Houston Oilers.

I hear you, and at the risk of going WAAAAY off on a tangent (in addition to showing MY age), ... #LuvYaBlue

 

[KevFu]

Im talking about being Unceremoniously kicked out of the Glendale arena, and then completely blown out in a referendum in Tempe - nothing to do with Canada.

Yeah, and I'm telling you that the Coyotes brand is toxic in Canada because no one THERE thinks the franchise can ever be successful in Arizona.

But in Arizona, they don't need to rebrand the team. They just need a New NHL Arena in a location accessible to the majority of the market.

People stayed away from the Coyotes during the Moyes/Bankruptcy and Glendale lease sagas because the stink of ownership and bankruptcy, and not being given a good enough reason to drive all the way out to Glendale to give those owners their money.

Once again: In Mullet Arena, with only 4600 seats, season ticket revenue for the Coyotes went UP 50% compared to Glendale. A lot of people were excited to have a team in the center of the market.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

People stayed away from the Coyotes during the Moyes/Bankruptcy and Glendale lease sagas because the stink of ownership and bankruptcy, and not being give a good enough reason to drive all the way out to Glendale to give those owners their money.

Once again: In Mullet Arena, with only 4600 seats, season ticket revenue for the Coyotes went UP 50% compared to Glendale. A lot of people were excited to have a team in the center of the market.

And that is the exact "brand" I am talking about.

They tried to sell a municipality parking rights the municipality already owned. That's gonna do damage when you're trying to partner with a municipality in the future.

I am not talking about getting butts in seats - I happen to believe the fact there are any fans left after a decade-plus of this mess is impressive - I'm talking about the brand's ability to enter into a successful partnership with a municipality to build a new arena.

 

[objectiveposter]

As someone who has followed this saga for well over a decade now I must say there has never been this much smoke for a relocation. You had Salt Lake City come out and say that not only are they interested in an NHL expansion team but they are ready for it immediately (something you never heard from vegas or seattle) Why would they include the immediate aspect, knowing that they havent built a new arena yet and expansion process usually takes years? Why has the NHL been so publicly open and warm with potential Utah ownership? Usually they deny everything.

You also have the NHLPA speak in an extremely blunt manner that the team should move to Utah, something they never have done in the past. You also have a planned announcement by Bettman next week when its still clear that Muerrelo doesnt have a land deal finalized. There seems to finally be a sense of urgency from the league and I think its because they know that Utah will need at least 6 months preperation to be ready for the 2024-25 season. This is the first time I genuinely believe the team is on the move... and Utah is the destination.