CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[oldunclehue]

I don't think they can "force" Muerello unless he broke a league rule or there was some clause in his purchase agreement (like the NBA had with the Bucks). Or unless they make a deal of some kind where he gets a shot at an expansion team in the future kind of like the Browns/Baltimore deal. Maybe something like you sell this team to SLC and you get an expansion team in 2028 if you have a new arena built

I would venture a guess that the NHL has some significant out clauses in ownership/franchise agreements with teams as fall backs. Plus you add in all the debts and NHL investment in the organization I wouldn't doubt if they have a significant stake in the ownership of the club.

Also...they likely have an agreement on timelines for a new arena etc...if breached the NHL has remedies to deal with that.

multi-billion dollar corporations like the NHL have plenty of lawyers and experts to cover themselves.

I was hopeful that AM was going to get a land deal in the works....but with how this has dragged on, I wouldn't imagine anything going forth would go quickly....so likeliness is if AM does get a land deal by the end of the season we are still 3-4 years away before an arena is ready. I don't see the NHL agreeing to that timeline in Mullet arena.

 

[Ernie]

Hasn't SEG's (SLC group) pitch to the NHL been that the Delta Center would function as a temporary home for the team until a new arena could be completed? From what is publicly available, I see no formal steps towards a new arena in SLC (and all we've heard is that it's only been a meeting in Draper and conversations with SLC's mayor), so why is SLC the leading relocation candidate? You trade 4,500 fans per game for 14,000 on the hopes that an arena deal could be reached? Is that not the main issue in Arizona, just with 10,000 extra fans a game?

If the NHL takes over, I just don't see this team relocating to SLC without an arena deal in place.

The Olympics are coming to SLC, which will mean a ton of public money for sports infrastructure, which SEG plans to use to subsidize a new arena.

 

[oldunclehue]

Hasn't SEG's (SLC group) pitch to the NHL been that the Delta Center would function as a temporary home for the team until a new arena could be completed? From what is publicly available, I see no formal steps towards a new arena in SLC (and all we've heard is that it's only been a meeting in Draper and conversations with SLC's mayor), so why is SLC the leading relocation candidate? You trade 4,500 fans per game for 14,000 on the hopes that an arena deal could be reached? Is that not the main issue in Arizona, just with 10,000 extra fans a game?

If the NHL takes over, I just don't see this team relocating to SLC without an arena deal in place.

SLC is hosting winter Olympics which includes a new arena to be built. I think the NHL would love having a team there and a brand new facility surrounding a winter Olympics to use as promotion of hockey in the area. Plus NHLers are back in the Olympics so that adds to it.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

The NHL was okay with the much higher profile Isles playing at a mess of a new arena for hockey purposes in Barclays Center for several years without an exit strategy in mind. I don't see them really being too upset if a team has to play in the current Jazz arena for a bit, too. And, not to belabor a point, but the NHL okayed the Yotes playing in a barn four to five times smaller than any other arena in the NHL, so it's not like any team playing at Delta would be a huge step down compared to Barclays or Mullett.

And SLC is a frontrunner because an actual billionaire has expressed interest knowing the prices that the NHL has been asking for. Let me know what any other market gets someone like that, and no Hamilton with Balsillie chasing after teams for a relative pittance back in the day or Quebecor going silent ever since they saw the expansion fees don't cut it.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Sure, and there are jazz clubs in Salt Lake City. And flames in Calgary. And maybe there's a grizzly in the Memphis zoo. Sports teams are often named for things associated with their city/region. Phoenix went with a desert theme because of course they did, and the coyote - despite its ubiquity - fits with that theme.

People aren't thinking desert and coyotes when they think about Salt Lake City.

People are generally stupid, so this could be an educational opportunity!

 

[sneakytitz]

The Olympics are coming to SLC, which will mean a ton of public money for sports infrastructure, which SEG plans to use to subsidize a new arena.

In 2034...

 

[Rich Nixon]

In 2034...

Right, which means that sometime in the next decade they'll likely be building a state-of-the-art hockey arena. They can do it a little earlier if they want to, nothing is stopping them, and even if they didn't, there's a more concrete guarantee that such arena will exist than they currently have in their existing location.

 

[Ernie]

In 2034...

I don't doubt that Smith has it all worked out. The borders between government, business, and religion in Utah are all pretty fluid.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Hasn't SEG's (SLC group) pitch to the NHL been that the Delta Center would function as a temporary home for the team until a new arena could be completed? From what is publicly available, I see no formal steps towards a new arena in SLC (and all we've heard is that it's only been a meeting in Draper and conversations with SLC's mayor), so why is SLC the leading relocation candidate? You trade 4,500 fans per game for 14,000 on the hopes that an arena deal could be reached? Is that not the main issue in Arizona, just with 10,000 extra fans a game?

If the NHL takes over, I just don't see this team relocating to SLC without an arena deal in place.

The Jazz are much more popular in SLC then the Coyotes are in Phoenix. A new arena would be pitched as a new home for the Jazz, and would likely have a much easier time getting approved.

 

[sneakytitz]

Right, which means that sometime in the next decade they'll likely be building a state-of-the-art hockey arena. They can do it a little earlier if they want to, nothing is stopping them, and even if they didn't, there's a more concrete guarantee that such arena will exist than they currently have in their existing location.

They can do anything, sure, but the IOC's master plan for SLC mentions using 100% existing venues. They're getting the games without needing to build a new arena for it.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Olympic-Games/Future-Host/ioc-feasibility-assessment-future-olympic-winter-games-salt-lake-city-utah.pdf?_ga=2.59978285.1075291198.1707412250-52878399.1707412250

 

[KevFu]

Sure, and there are jazz clubs in Salt Lake City. And flames in Calgary. And maybe there's a grizzly in the Memphis zoo. Sports teams are often named for things associated with their city/region. Phoenix went with a desert theme because of course they did, and the coyote - despite its ubiquity - fits with that theme.

People aren't thinking desert and coyotes when they think about Salt Lake City.

This reminds me of the Reddit thing where someone asked "What if each sports team was named after the animal species most prevalent in their area?" And someone came back with a full list of: Boston Ants, Toronto Ants, New York Ants, Tampa Bay Ants..."

The point of team names isn't "oh sure, we got that." It's what you're known for.

Here's the thing re: the "too big" argument:

Houston is a bigger market, always has been, has always had more corporations, and is always growing to stay ahead of Phoenix in market ranking. If there is such a thing as a market being "too big" to ignore, then I guess the NHL has been screwed this entire century and before for not being in Houston. And flat out moronic for not finding a way to make it happen in the 1990s.

It goes without saying the NHL is better off if it works in Phoenix. But the idea that "this market is too big for the NHL to not have a team there in perpetuity" doesn't hold weight so long as Houston doesn't have a team.

The NHL covets Houston, but they haven't had an arena they could get into. They didn't need "a billionaire" like most other cities, they needed one specific billionaire (the Rockets owner) because of the terms of his lease.


And that's all the more reason why leaving Phoenix is a terrible idea. You don't know what they're building next, and who's going to control what team down the line. Everyone wants the Coyotes to "fix it," so the search for an arena with the threat of losing a team is going to go a lot faster/better than trying to build a hockey arena for an expansion team in the future with no sense of urgency.

An absolute ton of expansion selection is timing. Look at baseball. Three cities lost expansion bids in 1991 (when MLB added Miami and Denver for the 1993 season) and built new minor league stadiums. And just four years later, when MLB added two more teams to get Tampa off their backs, those cities were just OUT and MLB had to bend over backward for Phoenix (NL team) because they -- while technically having some, for all intents and purposes really - had no other candidates.

 

[awfulwaffle]

The crux of the argument was they cannot sell out 4600 seats...the fact that anyone is getting emailed by the Yotes to buy single game tickets is the bigger issue.


Really?!? LOL

It took me two clicks....

https://www.ticketmaster.com/event/19005EEA7FFD0D18?brand=phxcoyotes&artistid=806002&wt.mc_id=NHL_TEAM_ARI_SINGLE_GAME_TICKETS_PAGE_GM26&utm_source=NHL.com&utm_medium=client&utm_campaign=NHL_TEAM_ARI&utm_content=SINGLE_GAME_TICKETS_PAGE_GM26?CFC_COYOTES_WEB_SGTICKETPG_SINGLEGAME&_ga=2.110401925.1616187689.1693518701-1923358593.1693061998

https://www.ticketmaster.com/event/19005EEA80180D30?brand=phxcoyotes&artistid=806002&wt.mc_id=NHL_TEAM_ARI_SINGLE_GAME_TICKETS_PAGE_GM34&utm_source=NHL.com&utm_medium=client&utm_campaign=NHL_TEAM_ARI&utm_content=SINGLE_GAME_TICKETS_PAGE_GM34?CFC_COYOTES_WEB_SGTICKETPG_SINGLEGAME&_ga=2.218559257.1616187689.1693518701-1923358593.1693061998

Not sure what you are trying to prove. 99% of these are verified resale?

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The NHL was okay with the much higher profile Isles playing at a mess of a new arena for hockey purposes in Barclays Center for several years without an exit strategy in mind. I don't see them really being too upset if a team has to play in the current Jazz arena for a bit, too. And, not to belabor a point, but the NHL okayed the Yotes playing in a barn four to five times smaller than any other arena in the NHL, so it's not like any team playing at Delta would be a huge step down compared to Barclays or Mullett.

And SLC is a frontrunner because an actual billionaire has expressed interest knowing the prices that the NHL has been asking for. Let me know what any other market gets someone like that, and no Hamilton with Balsillie chasing after teams for a relative pittance back in the day or Quebecor going silent ever since they saw the expansion fees don't cut it.

I do know of a market with an ownership group ready, temporary arena, and is further along in the new arena process than SLC.

 

[KevFu]

IMO The Coyotes brand is just toxic in Arizona at this point.

A re-brand is long overdue, but you'd need stable ownership, which this franchise has literally never had.

The Coyotes brand is toxic in Canada, not Arizona.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I do know of a market with an ownership group ready, temporary arena, and is further along in the new arena process than SLC.

If you mean Atlanta, who and where? Not trying to be cute, but I don't recall anyone opening their wallets yet or the Hawks being open to having a tenant, though I say that not attempting to be confrontational.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

If you mean Atlanta, who and where? Not trying to be cute, but I don't recall anyone opening their wallets yet or the Hawks being open to having a tenant, though I say that not attempting to be confrontational.

Alls good.

Ownership group: Krauss Sports and Entertainment
New arena: At the Gathering
Temporary: Gas South Arena (home of the ECHL Gladiators, 13K seating)

Links to all this is in the Atlanta thread on the NHL board. Didn't you post in that thread?

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Isn't gas south not really built for the purposes of major televised events, though? That's not the same case as Delta in Salt Lake, as the thing is just old but still NBA functional. Then again, not like it would be worse than Mullett, but assuredly a step down on Delta in terms of media infrastructure.

And my bad on ownership, as I thought they had only arena owners lined up, but at the very least we still have to see them officially open their pocketbooks.

 

[TheLegend]

Here's the thing re: the "too big" argument:

Houston is a bigger market, always has been, has always had more corporations, and is always growing to stay ahead of Phoenix in market ranking. If there is such a thing as a market being "too big" to ignore, then I guess the NHL has been screwed this entire century and before for not being in Houston. And flat out moronic for not finding a way to make it happen in the 1990s.

It goes without saying the NHL is better off if it works in Phoenix. But the idea that "this market is too big for the NHL to not have a team there in perpetuity" doesn't hold weight so long as Houston doesn't have a team.

Yet Houston is a two major sports team town and Arizona has four. And had lost their NFL team even though Texas is known to be a football mecca starting from the high schools up.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Isn't gas south not really built for the purposes of major televised events, though? That's not the same case as Delta in Salt Lake, as the thing is just old but still NBA functional. Then again, not like it would be worse than Mullett, but assuredly a step down on Delta in terms of media infrastructure.

And my bad on ownership, as I thought they had only arena owners lined up, but at the very least we still have to see them officially open their pocketbooks.

If they have the offseason as a heads up, I'm sure they'd rush to get the arena up to "temporary standards". All the rumors point towards the NHL approving an expansion team as the arena project got greenlit and was contingent upon getting a team as an anchor tenant. With that, it's probably more likely that SLC is in line for a team before Atlanta, but we'll see.

I do still think the Yotes stay in Phoenix, but they'd better hurry. As I've said, the process could take years and years.

 

[TheLegend]

He doesn't care about the Coyotes. He never has. It was at best a means to an end (Entertainment District). If the expectation of a change in ownership is happening, you will start to hear things along those lines regarding his involvement and motives along with how much he actually put into the team/lost (hint: it won't be a lot if any).

That's a narrative people (including some Coyotes fans) want to cling to. But if you look closer to what he's done with hockey ops since taking over and compare it to all the previous ownerships combined, Then look at what he's spending now to keep a team at Mullett.

AND understand that in this market you need more than just an arena and a team to make it economically feasible.

Not really. This team has always been the exception to the rule whenever you talk about....well....anything.

Plus, it's not like it impacted either Vegas or Seatlle when it came to their expansion fee.

Maybe not now..... but the value of the Coyotes (while still on the bottom of the list) has nearly doubled since Meruelo bought them.

 

[TheLegend]

Hasn't SEG's (SLC group) pitch to the NHL been that the Delta Center would function as a temporary home for the team until a new arena could be completed? From what is publicly available, I see no formal steps towards a new arena in SLC (and all we've heard is that it's only been a meeting in Draper and conversations with SLC's mayor), so why is SLC the leading relocation candidate? You trade 4,500 fans per game for 14,000 on the hopes that an arena deal could be reached? Is that not the main issue in Arizona, just with 10,000 extra fans a game?

If the NHL takes over, I just don't see this team relocating to SLC without an arena deal in place.

Smith has said he doesn't care how he gets a team and SLC has other motives for wanting a team now.

 

[GKJ]

Yet Houston is a two major sports team town and Arizona has four. And had lost their NFL team even though Texas is known to be a football mecca starting from the high schools up.

Houston has 3.

 

[sneakytitz]

Isn't gas south not really built for the purposes of major televised events, though? That's not the same case as Delta in Salt Lake, as the thing is just old but still NBA functional. Then again, not like it would be worse than Mullett, but assuredly a step down on Delta in terms of media infrastructure.

And my bad on ownership, as I thought they had only arena owners lined up, but at the very least we still have to see them officially open their pocketbooks.

I don't see why not? There have been hundreds of nationally televised events at Gas South. Everything from wrestling to arena football to lacrosse to the WNBA Finals to UFCs to SEC basketball.

If you want a prime relocation city, it's Atlanta. They've got a temporary home ready to host, they're already building on the site of the future arena, and the county just allocated $390 million in subsidies so long as the arena is the home to an NHL team. The only reason it likely won't happen is because Krause's group has said they're only focused on expansion and not relocating a team, but who knows?

Alls good.

Ownership group: Krauss Sports and Entertainment
New arena: At the Gathering
Temporary: Gas South Arena (home of the ECHL Gladiators, 13K seating)

Links to all this is in the Atlanta thread on the NHL board. Didn't you post in that thread?

It's a little over 10,000ish at the moment. Sections 110-113 haven't been fully used since that fan fell through one of them. I am sure Gwinnett county would fund their fix/replacements, though, if they were told they were going to host 3 seasons of NHL hockey until The Gathering could be built.

 

[aqib]

Debt.

It was reported that Meruelo actually put very little down when he "bought" the franchise, with the NHL holding most (or all) of the debt.

With all the losses over the years, you can't imagine that debt has decreased, and finding another source to fund that debt would be prohibitively expensive.

You can bet that the NHL put into the terms of the agreement that they can call the loan and take over ownership at will. If Meruelo can find a local buyer to pay more than the outstanding debt for the franchise, he can pocket the difference. But that seems unlikely.

Basically every owner after Burke bailed just assumed the debt the old owner and added new debt to fund the purchase with very little equity.

No one in AZ is going to buy this because they know the market.

 

[KevFu]

They could apply pressure, like:
- they won't get an ASG, Draft, Winter Classic/outdoor game

The Coyotes are literally the only ones who haven't done ANY of that.

Mainly because you're not going to host the ASG without a legitimate NHL arena!

Hasn't SEG's (SLC group) pitch to the NHL been that the Delta Center would function as a temporary home for the team until a new arena could be completed? From what is publicly available, I see no formal steps towards a new arena in SLC (and all we've heard is that it's only been a meeting in Draper and conversations with SLC's mayor), so why is SLC the leading relocation candidate? You trade 4,500 fans per game for 14,000 on the hopes that an arena deal could be reached? Is that not the main issue in Arizona, just with 10,000 extra fans a game?

If the NHL takes over, I just don't see this team relocating to SLC without an arena deal in place.

Right, which means that sometime in the next decade they'll likely be building a state-of-the-art hockey arena. They can do it a little earlier if they want to, nothing is stopping them, and even if they didn't, there's a more concrete guarantee that such arena will exist than they currently have in their existing location.

I think Salt Lake's statement about an NHL team needs context to consider what's happening in Utah right now RE: Olympic bid/project bidding.

Salt Lake and Utah have promised the taxpayers they won't create an Olympic tax to fund the games. So their plan is funding projects that have a permanent purpose, for 30+ years instead of 14 days, but which ALSO will be part of the Olympic bid.

So you have one billionaire lobbying for an MLB stadium that can double as a medal ceremony venue during the Olympics, and he's posting billboards saying "Utah wants the A's" as a temp home before they go to Vegas; with a new SLC expansion team starting simultaneously with the Vegas As.

THAT'S the backdrop of Smith saying SLC wants an NHL team.