CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Major4Boarding]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. But people know that they're dealing with people, not the Coyotes brand. And the people in municipality change, too, via elections.


The craziest thing to me is that the NHL hasn't called up Tim Leiweke and said "We want you on board with arena efforts in Phoenix. The Coyotes and AEG can partner... " considering just how many things they've gotten done.

I'm sorry Kev, not sure what you do for a living but when you deal with people who work for the Brand, you're dealing with the Brand.

 

[TheLegend]

I'm sorry Kev, not sure what you do for a living but when you deal with people who work for the Brand, you're dealing with the Brand.

I agree the brand's been hurt pretty bad. Meruelo has been trying hard by using the merchandise arm to get into other areas, and it's getting some result but overall it's really taken a beating.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Same here. We have now come full circle Sarge.

I know I sound curmudgeonly, or like I'm a Relocationist sometimes (and I know you know I'm not) but this thing coming full circle, the only thing that's missing now are the 4 Horsemen overlooking this whole thing from the rise up yonder. I definitely feel a disturbance in the Force this time. I'm just hoping for you all its just the Reaper coming to reset the plot.

 

[awfulwaffle]

If the Muruelo can't afford the 200 acres, does he have investors that are going to finance the ED?

Is there a source that shows the team is cash flow positive? Didn't XG talk about Muruelo losing at least $10M after the first season there?

Perhaps he could afford it, but has a limit on what he'd like to spend? I mean, just because he has money, doesn't mean he should throw it at whatever.

It's like the story about the super bowl suite and cmc's mom commenting on not being able to afford it, even though cmc makes $14 million a year. People were commenting he could afford it. Why though she he spend 17% of his income on one 5 hour event?

 

[Boris Zubov]

Perhaps he could afford it, but has a limit on what he'd like to spend? I mean, just because he has money, doesn't mean he should throw it at whatever.

It's like the story about the super bowl suite and cmc's mom commenting on not being able to afford it, even though cmc makes $14 million a year. People were commenting he could afford it. Why though she he spend 17% of his income on one 5 hour event?

My question was solely based on what the tweet said. Maybe he misspoke.

 

[TheLegend]

I know I sound curmudgeonly, or like I'm a Relocationist sometimes (and I know you know I'm not) but this thing coming full circle, the only thing that's missing now are the 4 Horsemen overlooking this whole thing from the rise up yonder. I definitely feel a disturbance in the Force this time. I'm just hoping for you all its just the Reaper coming to reset the plot.

All we need now is Judge Emeritus Redfield T Baum to preside (if he's still alive).

 

[Boris Zubov]

All we need now is Judge Emeritus Redfield T Baum to preside (if he's still alive).

I assume he was the bankruptcy judge?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I know I sound curmudgeonly, or like I'm a Relocationist sometimes (and I know you know I'm not) but this thing coming full circle, the only thing that's missing now are the 4 Horsemen overlooking this whole thing from the rise up yonder. I definitely feel a disturbance in the Force this time. I'm just hoping for you all its just the Reaper coming to reset the plot.

Does he look something like this?

 

[MNNumbers]

Can anyone verify that the executive committee is actually meeting today?

 

[TheLegend]

Can anyone verify that the executive committee is actually meeting today?

Only thing I have is this... what "deal" Morgan is referring to I don't know.

 

[KevFu]

2) I don't get why someone can't build an arena in a suburban county.

Because Harris County is basically the size of Connecticut.

The top two candidates for affluent suburb outside Harris County would be The Woodlands or Sugar Land. They are 52 miles apart, and either 20 or 30 miles from the NBA arena downtown.

4) Just stop. The only runners up from 93 that didn't reapply were Charlotte, Sacramento, and Washington. They were replaced by Northern Virgina and Vancouver. That's in addition to Nashville and Buffalo (Orlando applied too but they would have been redundant with Tampa). NoVA,, VAncouver, and Nashville would have been fine. Buffalo of course they dodged a bullet. Also, how did they bend over backwards for Phoenix? It was a strong bid

"Northern Virginia" is basically Washington. It's the St. Paul to DC's Minneapolis: Their ballpark plan was on the Potomac River with DC as the backdrop. Might have been the same group bidding each time.

Orlando, as you say, is redundant with Tampa, but DC/NoVa is half the distance as ORL-TB. They were off the table because of territorial rights.

But the fact is... Orlando and NoVa were the other FINALISTS. So two of the four finalists DEFINITELY WEREN'T getting teams, and the other three were assessed to be BEHIND THEM.

Vancouver, I can't find anything on their bid, but they were eliminated in the first round with Buffalo and Nashville. Buffalo re-applied with "we can expand our brand-new minor league stadium!" And Nashville reapplied with "We just renovated our minor league stadium, we can renovate it for MLB standards" and Charlotte just didn't apply because they built a minor league park.


Jerry Colangelo was RECRUITED by MLB to bid. Per his interview with the Arizona Republic:

"In ’93 when we were in the finals against the Bulls" ... "They came to see me and said, ‘We think it’s time for baseball, and we think you’re the guy who can make it happen just because of your experience, your reputation, your ability to get things done.’”

Colangelo initially resisted and told them he already had a full plate of duties and didn’t “have any ambition” to spearhead an MLB expansion team in Arizona."

“I was a National League fan. I was a Cub fan."

Colangelo said that former New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf and then-Milwaukee Brewers owner and ex-MLB commissioner Bud Selig encouraged him to pursue the Diamondbacks ownership for the seismic impact an MLB team would have in Phoenix, the state and southwest region.

- The Bulls and White Sox were owned by Reinsdorf, who almost moved the Sox to Tampa.
- Steinbrenner is a Tampa native/resident. The Yankees still have their spring training home there.
- Both men were put on the MLB expansion committee designed to get Florida Congressmen off their backs, which Selig named.


Yes, baseball bent over backwards for Phoenix. Colangelo wanted an NL team, and because THEY needed HIM, MLB said okay.

Two teams were added to the AL in 1961, 1969 and 1977
Two teams were added to the NL in 1962, 1969 and 1993

Why suddenly did they add one to each league? Did it make things easier/better? Absolutely not! If you look at all the alignments, or even proposed alignments for MLB from 1993-2014, Arizona in the AL West makes every single one of them better.

But instead, Arizona in the NL forced a team to switch leagues! They weren't ready for year-round interleague play, so they did 16-14 with the Brewers switching.

The AL West has THREE teams in the actual West. The NL has FIVE. How does that make any sense? When the schedule makers wanted 15/15 and year-round interleague... why wouldn't you move Arizona to the AL West and Houston to the NL West? That's balanced: one mountain time zone and one Texas team each!


But Colangelo was a Cubs fan, a National League guy; and most of the market was Dodgers fans. He wanted to be in the NL with the Cubs and Dodgers. And he had MLB over a barrel because they NEEDED him to make the Tampa problem go away. So he got the "Arizona is in the National League team" in writing

 

[PredsHead]

Only thing I have is this... what "deal" Morgan is referring to I don't know.

That would be the State Land Board of Appeals went into executive session to discuss several items. One of which: "Arizona State Land Department Board of Appeals, CV2024-001259, including consideration, discussion, and potential action regarding plaintiff's counsel’s “Expedited request for Waiver Conflict.” is likely the Coyotes application.

Source: https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-02/FinalCombinedAgenda_02082024_3_2_2.pdf
Section VI, item C.

 

[aqib]

Because Harris County is basically the size of Connecticut.

The top two candidates for affluent suburb outside Harris County would be The Woodlands or Sugar Land. They are 52 miles apart, and either 20 or 30 miles from the NBA arena downtown.



"Northern Virginia" is basically Washington. It's the St. Paul to DC's Minneapolis: Their ballpark plan was on the Potomac River with DC as the backdrop. Might have been the same group bidding each time.

Orlando, as you say, is redundant with Tampa, but DC/NoVa is half the distance as ORL-TB. They were off the table because of territorial rights.

But the fact is... Orlando and NoVa were the other FINALISTS. So two of the four finalists DEFINITELY WEREN'T getting teams, and the other three were assessed to be BEHIND THEM.

Vancouver, I can't find anything on their bid, but they were eliminated in the first round with Buffalo and Nashville. Buffalo re-applied with "we can expand our brand-new minor league stadium!" And Nashville reapplied with "We just renovated our minor league stadium, we can renovate it for MLB standards" and Charlotte just didn't apply because they built a minor league park.


Jerry Colangelo was RECRUITED by MLB to bid. Per his interview with the Arizona Republic:

"In ’93 when we were in the finals against the Bulls" ... "They came to see me and said, ‘We think it’s time for baseball, and we think you’re the guy who can make it happen just because of your experience, your reputation, your ability to get things done.’”

Colangelo initially resisted and told them he already had a full plate of duties and didn’t “have any ambition” to spearhead an MLB expansion team in Arizona."

“I was a National League fan. I was a Cub fan."

Colangelo said that former New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf and then-Milwaukee Brewers owner and ex-MLB commissioner Bud Selig encouraged him to pursue the Diamondbacks ownership for the seismic impact an MLB team would have in Phoenix, the state and southwest region.

- The Bulls and White Sox were owned by Reinsdorf, who almost moved the Sox to Tampa.
- Steinbrenner is a Tampa native/resident. The Yankees still have their spring training home there.
- Both men were put on the MLB expansion committee designed to get Florida Congressmen off their backs, which Selig named.


Yes, baseball bent over backwards for Phoenix. Colangelo wanted an NL team, and because THEY needed HIM, MLB said okay.

Two teams were added to the AL in 1961, 1969 and 1977
Two teams were added to the NL in 1962, 1969 and 1993

Why suddenly did they add one to each league? Did it make things easier/better? Absolutely not! If you look at all the alignments, or even proposed alignments for MLB from 1993-2014, Arizona in the AL West makes every single one of them better.

But instead, Arizona in the NL forced a team to switch leagues! They weren't ready for year-round interleague play, so they did 16-14 with the Brewers switching.

The AL West has THREE teams in the actual West. The NL has FIVE. How does that make any sense? When the schedule makers wanted 15/15 and year-round interleague... why wouldn't you move Arizona to the AL West and Houston to the NL West? That's balanced: one mountain time zone and one Texas team each!


But Colangelo was a Cubs fan, a National League guy; and most of the market was Dodgers fans. He wanted to be in the NL with the Cubs and Dodgers. And he had MLB over a barrel because they NEEDED him to make the Tampa problem go away. So he got the "Arizona is in the National League team" in writing

Coyotes: Season ticket revenue up 50% at ASU

The Arizona Coyotes expect to sell out every home game this season at ASU's Mullett Arena, according to team president Xavier A. Gutierrez, who says their season-ticket revenue has surpassed what they were generating in their former home in Glendale.

www.espn.com

That's not bending over backwards that's more zeroing in on a market. They could have easily picked Northern Virgina or even Vancouver which had a stadium in place and a potential rivalry with Seattle. Also, the Jays had a new owner who at the time had no interest in owning them so it wouldn't have been an issue with the Jays

 

[KevFu]

I'm sorry Kev, not sure what you do for a living but when you deal with people who work for the Brand, you're dealing with the Brand.

Well, I worked media relations in college sports for like 20+ years... Yes, when you work for a team, you represent the brand.

But (a) different people can change the image of a brand.

While not the direct parallel I'm making because he wasn't owner/CEO, but I don't think you can dispute that Michael Jordan completely changed Nike (and by the converse the fall of Converse! word play!)

How about the image of Al Arbor's Islanders (dynasty!) vs Mike Milbury's Islanders (Cluster!). Or Vinik/Yzerman with the Tampa Bay Lightning?

And (b) different people have different effects in negotiations.

The Oakland A's would be a great example of both. Their image and reputation was scrappy underdogs during the Steve Schott and Lew Wolfe ownership eras. But Fisher basically made MLB pull their revenue sharing and Oakland fans chant "Sell the Team" and the mayor of Las Vegas say the team should stay in Oakland.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Does he look something like this?

I wouldn’t be the least bit shocked

 

[Major4Boarding]

Well, I worked media relations in college sports for like 20+ years... Yes, when you work for a team, you represent the brand.

But (a) different people can change the image of a brand.

While not the direct parallel I'm making because he wasn't owner/CEO, but I don't think you can dispute that Michael Jordan completely changed Nike (and by the converse the fall of Converse! word play!)

How about the image of Al Arbor's Islanders (dynasty!) vs Mike Milbury's Islanders (Cluster!). Or Vinik/Yzerman with the Tampa Bay Lightning?

And (b) different people have different effects in negotiations.

The Oakland A's would be a great example of both. Their image and reputation was scrappy underdogs during the Steve Schott and Lew Wolfe ownership eras. But Fisher basically made MLB pull their revenue sharing and Oakland fans chant "Sell the Team" and the mayor of Las Vegas say the team should stay in Oakland.

We are in complete agreement, then, that it would take different people. And this current group of people is not going to get it done.

Since this whole saga is surrounded by “anything can happen”, I’ll feel free to sling a whole bunch against the wall to get it out there. As stupid as it may sound.

It will take a Michael Jordan-esque, or in this case (locally) a yet-to-be-mentioned billionaire with a ton of liquidity, add in a Charles Barkley, Bieber and his girl, (throw Doaner in there too) to get this put the rest… once, and for all.

Not that MJ is a billionaire with the pockets but this aligns itself with your thoughts on how he transcended Nike. It would take a titan like that to move the needle

Adding all the key cogs to refresh the brand. The deep pocketed owner that doesn’t need concessions, two celebrities with local ties which would add legitimacy to the core group… Especially Barkley who doesn’t hold anything back (so there’s your transparency!) and arguably the bedrock of the entire franchise, who alone holds the last bit of legitimacy left, Shane Doan.

Concerns me that hipsters and big shots with deep pockets came out of the woodwork for the Senators, but have never come out for this club.

Does it happen this time? I hope so. But it looks like Hope is fading.

 

[TheLegend]

That would be the State Land Board of Appeals went into executive session to discuss several items. One of which: "Arizona State Land Department Board of Appeals, CV2024-001259, including consideration, discussion, and potential action regarding plaintiff's counsel’s “Expedited request for Waiver Conflict.” is likely the Coyotes application.

Source: https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-02/FinalCombinedAgenda_02082024_3_2_2.pdf
Section VI, item C.

Nice…. and thank you.

I was taking it as the league executive board meeting because there’s been talk of how the league could force a sale by cutting off the Coyotes from revenue sharing. And with Rodier suggesting Meruelo has the leverage in that area, they would be meeting to figure out what they could actually do.

 

[KevFu]

We are in complete agreement, then, that it would take different people. And this current group of people is not going to get it done.

Since this whole saga is surrounded by “anything can happen”, I’ll feel free to sling a whole bunch against the wall to get it out there. As stupid as it may sound.

It will take a Michael Jordan-esque, or in this case (locally) a yet-to-be-mentioned billionaire with a ton of liquidity, add in a Charles Barkley, Bieber and his girl, (throw Doaner in there too) to get this put the rest… once, and for all.

Not that MJ is a billionaire with the pockets but this aligns itself with your thoughts on how he transcended Nike. It would take a titan like that to move the needle

Adding all the key cogs to refresh the brand. The deep pocketed owner that doesn’t need concessions, two celebrities with local ties which would add legitimacy to the core group… Especially Barkley who doesn’t hold anything back (so there’s your transparency!) and arguably the bedrock of the entire franchise, who alone holds the last bit of legitimacy left, Shane Doan.

Concerns me that hipsters and big shots with deep pockets came out of the woodwork for the Senators, but have never come out for this club.

Does it happen this time? I hope so. But it looks like Hope is fading.

Like I said, I don't understand why Leiweke wasn't brought in by the NHL to broker an AEG/Coyotes Arena.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Other than Toronto and Montreal, there are no NHL franchises that would not take a dip in support if they had the worst point percentage of all active franchises (like the Coyotes do). When the Coyotes were good, the support was there and growing. Then inept ownership and the kick in the sack Gretzky years stifled any momentum they were building.

Decades of ineptitude outside of the 2012 glitch led to no bandwagon fans, just the hard cores and the snowbirds. Additionally, the draft lottery + forfeiture has ensured no shortcuts to general support or hope. In all of the losing, the Coyotes did not receive a McDavid, Eichel, Dahlin, Bedard, etc and only through a 3rd OA do they finally have a legit, potential, franchise, changing, prospect in Cooley.

However, the 14.606 of their last real year in Glendale still exceeds the current 12,921 of the 7th best team in the NHL. However, that market does not get the same level of scrutiny or criticism for not supporting their team because, you know, it's a traditional market and they are sooo passionate.

Attendance matters, but gate revenue and overall teams revenue is more important to the league. The team drawing 14,000 may have plenty of cheap tickets and giveaways, and low tv ratings likely result in a poor regional tv deal resulting in low revenues. The team drawing 12 - 13,000 would have higher average ticket prices and good tv ratings resulting in a significantly more valuable tv deal and higher overall revenues.

 

[Fatass]

Is there a recording of it somewhere? I know some radio stations record their segments or shows, so I'd love to hear it. Friedman's written 32 is interesting, so I fully expect the podcast tomorrow to be just as interesting.

Radio 650 am Vancouver morning show. I listen online and they do have podcasts of their shows.

 

[aqib]

It will take a Michael Jordan-esque, or in this case (locally) a yet-to-be-mentioned billionaire with a ton of liquidity, add in a Charles Barkley, Bieber and his girl, (throw Doaner in there too) to get this put the rest… once, and for all

Concerns me that hipsters and big shots with deep pockets came out of the woodwork for the Senators, but have never come out for this club.

Does it happen this time? I hope so. But it looks like Hope is fading.

This team has changed hands 4 times since bankruptcy. Local billionaires have had their shot. There is a reason why they have sat it out.

The reason people came out of the woodwork for the Senators is because they knew hockey in Ottawa is a good investment.

 

[KevFu]

Attendance matters, but gate revenue and overall teams revenue is more important to the league. The team drawing 14,000 may have plenty of cheap tickets and giveaways, and low tv ratings likely result in a poor regional tv deal resulting in low revenues. The team drawing 12 - 13,000 would have higher average ticket prices and good tv ratings resulting in a significantly more valuable tv deal and higher overall revenues.

Yes, not to mention that most teams have dynamic pricing based on the day of the week and opponent and other marketing/events to maximize revenue.

If selling fewer tickets to a higher priced game gives them more revenue than a sellout, great.
If selling cheaper tickets to a Tuesday game brings in more revenue by increasing demand, great.

The Islanders in Barclays was predicated on the fact that selling premium seating that didn't exist in the Coliseum would offset the revenue of 4000 fewer seats in an arena not built for hockey.

 

[TheLegend]

This team has changed hands 4 times since bankruptcy. Local billionaires have had their shot. There is a reason why they have sat it out.

The reason people came out of the woodwork for the Senators is because they knew hockey in Ottawa is a good investment.

Apples and kumquats.

Massive difference in buying a franchise with no arena and one that not only has an arena but an inside position in building another one.

 

[TheLegend]

Sorry, not buying it. This is a bridge way too far when they haven't even sold out every game at Mullet. Glendale had its issues, but the East Valley/West Valley argument in this saga has been so overblown.

Side note...I still get emails from the Coyotes about buying single game tickets because I went to a game there about 6 years ago. Demand isn't exactly sky high for hockey in the Phoenix metro.

More than likely they haven’t cleaned up their mailing lists so that isn’t a good metric.

I mean…. I still get a recall notice on a car I haven’t driven for 8 years now.

 

[TheLegend]

They've been awarded two ASG's, though.

2006 didn't happen because of the post-lockout CBA and it being an Olympic year.

2011 didn't happen because the ownership situation and no one trusted that it'd be figured out by the time the ASG came around so they moved it.

So they WERE going to host the ASG in their arena in Glendale.

In 2004…. A year after the Glendale arena opened and well before any of this soap opera happened.

And during the lockout.