CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Voight]

That's what I get from this too. Hopefully an end to a decades long turmoil is near one way or another



I'm assuming this is SLC, and a quick Google search confirms yes it is.

To be fair, Weekes just tweets skylines of cities all the time. Kind of going along the lines of even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

However, I think this is the closest/best chance they've had at being relocated at any point in the last 20 years. Again, I don't think Smith releases that public statement without prior approval from Bettman.

 

[Edenjung]

Here's a summary: Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

Yeah. Like the professor who checked my thesis said to me "That is not a reliable source".
Sorry, but it aint. This is a non expert writing and making assumptions.

 

[Ernie]

Yeah. Like the professor who checked my thesis said to me "That is not a reliable source".
Sorry, but it aint. This is a non expert writing and making assumptions.

Coyotes fans never like anyone that doesn't parrot the team's line. If you have a problem with the analysis, feel free to point it out, but I'm not going to waste time on this.

 

[Edenjung]

@Ernie
This isn't a real analysis. None of the calculations he made are included.
And his assumptions in the end are not neutral like they should be. He does't even include potential biases or problems that his calculations might have.
If you had an analysis based on a study then i would follow along with what you are saying but this isn't.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Yeah. Like the professor who checked my thesis said to me "That is not a reliable source".
Sorry, but it aint. This is a non expert writing and making assumptions.

Yeah, I laughed my ass off, when I saw the source of @Ernie 's "summary."

 

[decma]

The idea that the remaining money in Phoenix is "too important" to make an announcement now, because they'd lose ticket sales... but ticket sales in the tiny arena are so low that the team has to be moved ASAP makes no sense.

It can't be both. You'd want to maximize the amount of money you get of course, but the entire premise behind "the league" being fed up and wanting to move them is the revenue sharing burden: they can't sell enough tickets so we have to subsidize them.

But ST deposits collected NOW would be part of franchise revenue THIS season, with the balance the next; so you'd increase their revenue this season by adding in Salt Lake customers, which would reduce the burden of revenue sharing needed this year.

So for example, if they'd get $120m in PHX, and $200m in Salt Lake... instead of giving them $20m in RS this year, and none next year.... You move $30m from SLC to PHX via deposits on season-tickets. Then give them $10m in RS this year, and $5m next year. Saving everyone else $5m in revenue sharing.

Ok, I now see what you mean (re ST deposits taken now being part of franchise revenue this season and thus reducing revenue sharing needed this season).

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The idea that the remaining money in Phoenix is "too important" to make an announcement now, because they'd lose ticket sales... but ticket sales in the tiny arena are so low that the team has to be moved ASAP makes no sense.

It can't be both. You'd want to maximize the amount of money you get of course, but the entire premise behind "the league" being fed up and wanting to move them is the revenue sharing burden: they can't sell enough tickets so we have to subsidize them.

But ST deposits collected NOW would be part of franchise revenue THIS season, with the balance the next; so you'd increase their revenue this season by adding in Salt Lake customers, which would reduce the burden of revenue sharing needed this year.

So for example, if they'd get $120m in PHX, and $200m in Salt Lake... instead of giving them $20m in RS this year, and none next year.... You move $30m from SLC to PHX via deposits on season-tickets. Then give them $10m in RS this year, and $5m next year. Saving everyone else $5m in revenue sharing.

Interesting. Are you talking real dollars going against RS? I signed a contract w/the Coyotes for auto renewal of my ST's and it states that "if Dislocated Seat holder rejects the relocation offer, the Arizona Coyotes shall, within thirty (30) calendar days of receipt of such rejection notice from the Dislocated seat holder, issue the Dislocated Seat holder a full refund for the value of the unused tickets on the affected Season Ticket Member Account."

 

[Reaser]

However, the 14.606 of their last real year in Glendale still exceeds the current 12,921 of the 7th best team in the NHL. However, that market does not get the same level of scrutiny or criticism for not supporting their team because, you know, it's a traditional market and they are sooo passionate.

There's literally a 40-page thread in this sub-forum criticizing Winnipeg's attendance.

As I said in this thread earlier today. Again, it's hilarious when people talk about "fanbase" or "[hockey] market" and do it by solely arguing about a relatively minute 1-3k difference in attendance.

Meanwhile, the Jets get over 100k regional viewership for preseason games. Let alone the 200-300k (avg 306k for the season a couple years ago) they average for regional broadcasts. While the Yotes, their best regional average viewership season came over two-decades ago and it still wasn't even 1/3rd of what the Jets get for preseason games, let alone regular season. The hockey markets are not the same -- and that's putting aside ownership, arena, revenue, debt!, etc..

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

IMO The Coyotes brand is just toxic in Arizona at this point.

A re-brand is long overdue, but you'd need stable ownership, which this franchise has literally never had.

 

[Llama19]

Property tax.....as I said.

I don't remember the sales tax exemption.

Ahhh...remember these studies...

Tempe Entertainment District: Seidman Research Institute Study Hits, Misses & Pie in the Sky

grandcanyoninstitute.org/research/tempe-entertainment-district/

And this one:

Tempe Subsidy of Proposed Coyotes Arena Not Covered by Economic Returns

grandcanyoninstitute.org/research/tempe-subsidy-of-proposed-coyotes-arena-not-covered-by-economic-returns/

Anyone can download each study...and pick a side...

 

[Voight]

Strickland got yelled at, yes.

If they go this route again (league ownership), by God they better do it with the intention of relocating.

 

[TheLegend]

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. I'm sure you'll die on this hill. Kinda sad, actually, to be in denial this long.

You've already died on your hill.... take the L and move on.

 

[TheLegend]

Property tax.....as I said.

I don't remember the sales tax exemption.

There was no "exemption" on the sales tax

They were to use a portion of the sales tax (generated only within the district) as one of the three sources to repay the bonds.

People really need to go look at the docs on Tempe's site.

 

[Edenjung]

@Reaser
I think that is something nobody can deny.
Local support has been abysmal. Based of course on the off ice drama and the on-ice performance or lack of.
The Jets on the other hand were quite successful the last couple of years and made it to the playoffs on a regular basis. Which, in a country were hockey is king in sports entertainment, boosts the viewership tremendously. Even in a small metro area like Winnipeg.
And yes their attendance is down, but that can also be explained by outside factors.

But what we all have to consider is that the conditions for winnipeg were better. Stable ownership. A city that loves hockey, success on-ice etc.
Arizona had none of that for quite some time. And in a country were hockey is far behing other sports it makes sense that people don't care. They care when the product is good. Like they now do in Florida.

But i think you guys have discussed this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again so lets keep it at that.

@Llama19
Whoever named a paper like this, should not work in science. Thats just unprofessional.
Like damn thats bad.
Have to ask my roomate who studies economy if all their papers have such names.
But maybe the content is good, well thought out, documented and written in a scientific manner as well as conducted according to scientific standards.
Have to give it a more in-depth read later today.
I am off to bed.

 

[DustyDangler]

There's literally a 40-page thread in this sub-forum criticizing Winnipeg's attendance.

As I said in this thread earlier today. Again, it's hilarious when people talk about "fanbase" or "[hockey] market" and do it by solely arguing about a relatively minute 1-3k difference in attendance.

Meanwhile, the Jets get over 100k regional viewership for preseason games. Let alone the 200-300k (avg 306k for the season a couple years ago) they average for regional broadcasts. While the Yotes, their best regional average viewership season came over two-decades ago and it still wasn't even 1/3rd of what the Jets get for preseason games, let alone regular season. The hockey markets are not the same -- and that's putting aside ownership, arena, revenue, debt!, etc..

That's all fair and well argued. Will just say though, the Coyotes on ice product has been horrific for a long time. It is understandable there might be some fan support issues as winning will breed support. It is less understandable that one of the best teams in the league can not get people to come to their games though people may be watching the games on tv.

 

[TheLegend]

Ahhh...remember these studies...

Tempe Entertainment District: Seidman Research Institute Study Hits, Misses & Pie in the Sky

grandcanyoninstitute.org/research/tempe-entertainment-district/

And this one:

Tempe Subsidy of Proposed Coyotes Arena Not Covered by Economic Returns

grandcanyoninstitute.org/research/tempe-subsidy-of-proposed-coyotes-arena-not-covered-by-economic-returns/

Anyone can download each study...and pick a side...

Those mean nothing but to abscure and confuse the actual documentation.

 

[TheLegend]

“To be in denial this long”…. You realize this is thread number… uhhhh… a billion, right?

Different roman numeral..... same hot air.

 

[TheLegend]

Here's a summary: Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

Oh now you're quoting @Llama19 's go to guy. He hasn't got a clue either.

 

[TheLegend]

Going to get this out here before anyone gets any other ideas.....

Pagnatta spreading unsubstantiated rumors too.
("premature"??? I'd say non-existant)

 

[DustyDangler]

IMO The Coyotes brand is just toxic in Arizona at this point.

A re-brand is long overdue, but you'd need stable ownership, which this franchise has literally never had.

Doesn't need a rebrand. It needs consistent, playoff appearances with some deep runs (very much on plan finally) and it needs a building (shrug). These two ingredients will lead to all the ownership debacles falling into memory holes where they belong.

 

[Chet Manley]

IMO The Coyotes brand is just toxic in Arizona at this point.

A re-brand is long overdue, but you'd need stable ownership, which this franchise has literally never had.

If it's to the point of rebranding than it might as well be done with an expansion team when a new building is secured.

 

[JimAnchower]

Going to get this out here before anyone gets any other ideas.....

Pagnatta spreading unsubstantiated rumors too.
("premature"??? I'd say non-existant)

Eh, if the denial is on the groups meeting and not on the concept of a deal, I'm not sure it's good news. I would also say if/when the groups meet, it will be with Bettman's/BOG tacit approval.

 

[Snarky Coyote]

In summary, Coyotes fans are aware that the team's ownership needs to resolve their issues promptly, or the team may relocate. However, some individuals who have been rooting for the team to leave for the past few decades will take this as another chance to criticize the team and its supporters. The league has only three days left before they intervene for the umpteenth time.

I know how it ends. Atlanta purchases the Coyotes and moves them. Winnepeg struggles over the next five years and is relocated to Phoenix in 2029. they move into the Suns arena until a new arena can be built. It's the perfect ending to the perfect horror movie.

 

[StickShift]

Going to get this out here before anyone gets any other ideas.....

Pagnatta spreading unsubstantiated rumors too.
("premature"??? I'd say non-existant)

I’m a bit out of the loop on the machinations of what is going on…so forgive me if I’m out of my element:

If the NHL desired to move the franchise to SLC, would it actually be the current Coyotes owners who would have the conversation about a sale? Seems unlikely if they are trying to find a way to keep the team in the Phoenix area.

To me it seems more likely that it’s the NHL itself who would be having those conversations with Utah now—and that the NHL would use their by-laws force the current Coyotes owners to sell the franchise back to the league?

 

[Mightygoose]

In summary, Coyotes fans are aware that the team's ownership needs to resolve their issues promptly, or the team may relocate. However, some individuals who have been rooting for the team to leave for the past few decades will take this as another chance to criticize the team and its supporters. The league has only three days left before they intervene for the umpteenth time.

I know how it ends. Atlanta purchases the Coyotes and moves them. Winnepeg struggles over the next five years and is relocated to Phoenix in 2029. they move into the Suns arena until a new arena can be built. It's the perfect ending to the perfect horror movie.

The issues the Coyotes have had traced back to that very plan.