Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
If Fertitta is honest about his trepidations on franchise prices, then that might take him out of the running.
CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?
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The Senators arena comes with 2 real estate parcels:
1) the current arena
2) The development rights to important parcels downtown
So that would boost the value of the Senators over the Coyotes. On the flip side the Coyotes come with a sportsbook license.
If he didn't like $600 million, how he would feel about $900 million+
I figured the Yotes are worth less, but how much? “Only” $400-500 million due to the uncertainty? They have to be considered a diminished asset at this point, do they not?
oldunclehue
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- Jun 16, 2010
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I would think in that range based on no assets in regards to real estate, likely have some debts in regards to the Mullet Arena and facility upgrades as well.
Not sure how much the sportsbook is worth or if it would be worth anything if they sell and move as its tied to the state is it not?
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
I just said they brought him back. If you want to perceive that as “applauding” him that’s on you.
As promised… the link.
Podcast Player Archives - Arizona Sports
arizonasports.com
So Forbes listed the Senators as worth around $800M in their last valuations, which includes the current arena they own but I'm not sure that included the LeBreton Flats rights. Forbes lists the Coyotes as being worth $450M in the same valuation, but that would be for them staying in Arizona and wouldn't include any relocation fee if they were sold and moved. The question is how many bidders would their be if the Coyotes did go up for sale? We saw four committed bids for the Senators which helped push the value up quite a bit, would we see the same for the Coyotes? Plus how much would the BOG want as a relocation fee? As ultra protective as the owners seem to be about their franchise values, I can't see the Coyotes selling for less than $500M and that would be to stay in Arizona. You would probably be looking at another $100M or more in relocation fees if they were to be sold and moved.
I wonder if any of the failed bidders from the Ottawa sale circle back to Meruelo to see if he's interested in selling now? Could Meruelo maybe sell part of the team to one of them and move the team to Kansas City or Quebec City themselves? Could Meruelo try to take on partners now to try and get something built in Arizona privately?
Kansas City continues to be mentioned. Is there some evidence that the city wants to give a sports team management rights? I'm sure they would be happy to have a renter, but the usual lease for NHL/NBA team with arena control is something different.
KevFu
Registered User
Free Agents cost more than players under contract.
If the Coyotes are sold, then it's with the implication that they're moving, which sets price the same as any expansion team. Sure, Murelo will get less than that for the Coyotes, but the New Owner Sticker Price will be the same as an expansion team.
If the Coyotes are sold, then it's with the implication that they're moving, which sets price the same as any expansion team. Sure, Murelo will get less than that for the Coyotes, but the New Owner Sticker Price will be the same as an expansion team.
Mightygoose
Registered User
Might take Ishbia out of the running too. If a plan B can't come together, the NHL will want him more than the other way around.
AintLifeGrand
Burnin Jet-A
I used to live in Salt Lake and still go back almost every month - Most SLC locals do not want the Olympics and the climate/ecosystem cannot sustain the exponential population growth of the previous 30 years- especially if the meager snow years continue (this past winter could very well be an aberration).Thanks. I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just wanted to see the logic, because it seemed like something is missing... And that helped me uncover what's missing.
YES, Salt Lake has TWO arenas they can temporarily play in. But the team isn't moving without a Permanent Arena Solution.
They have put $40 million into making a temporarily solution as close to NHL standards as they possibly can, despite its massive shortfalls; and spending more money on another one makes little to no sense... unless the Permanent Arena Solution is reached in another market and there's just no reason to stay when your move has been announced.
Delta Center is an NBA Arena. It CAN hold hockey, but it's not a P-A-S for the team. During the SLC Winter Olympics, it was dubbed "The Ice Pit" because of sightlines, and it's easy to see why.
Its' capacity for hockey is LISTED at 14,000 but - much like Barclays Center -- that doesn't mean there are 14,000 sellable seats with a view of a hockey game.
Delta Center also has the problem of locker rooms. Can it have a "permanent" home locker room for the NHL team, the Jazz, and visiting locker rooms for an NBA and NHL team all at the same time? And can it do that without an investment of millions? And is that investment worth it if the bowl configuration for hockey is the Ice Pit like the pictures?
There's also Maverick Center, which holds an actual LEGITIMATE 10,100 for hockey. But it probably doesn't have NHL broadcast, locker room, or back of house the league needs; and while it might have some suites, they're not NHL quality/quantity.
The number one argument for Salt Lake City as the "most likely" outcome is that the Delta Center and Maverick Center both SOUND/SEEM a lot better than Mullett Arena.
AND it's easy to see that the Olympic bid makes Salt Lake City seem VERY LIKELY to build a new NBA Arena that can fit a hockey team within the next decade -- making it the most logical place a "Permanent Arena Solution" can happen in.
But the 2030 and 2034 Winter Olympics are still a way off from having their funding pass through the governments and getting shovels in ground; and there's a TON of moving parts here.
I don't think the NHL will be saying "committed to Phoenix, committed to Phoenix.... (abruptly) Oh, Now They're Moving to Salt Lake." Because "voting on what to build" in Salt Lake is going to be far more public: True North had previously built an NHL Arena, for their AHL team "for now," with the goal of getting the Jets back... all they needed was a backroom deal for a team to bring the Jets back. Salt Lake needs a very public funding package to build what they want to build
If the Little Cottonwood Canyon Gondola gets shut down (the locals are vehemently against it) the Olympics will not be coming back
I would love to see a team in Utah, but Atlanta makes so much more sense.
Also Gwinnett Arena is much nicer than the Maverik Center and could be a decent stop gap until the Alpharetta project gets built
Not that I am specifically aware of, but the mayor mentioned they would be interested in talking to the NHL about bringing a team to the city. It seems his administration has been very vocal about trying to bring a NBA or NHL team to Kansas City for awhile now, so I would assume he has some understanding about what he would need to agree to in order to make that happen. I believe the city still owes quite a bit on both the arena and the district that surrounds it, would the city have any interest in trying to rid itself of some of that debt in exchange for arena rights? We saw from the Tempe deal that Meruelo is open to using creative means to get a deal done, perhaps he and the Kansas City mayor could work something mutually beneficial out.
NHL Hockey back in Kansas City? Mayor Lucas says city always ready to talk
If Meruelo cannot find a location that works for him in Arizona and wants to continue to own the Coyotes then Kansas City is one of the very few options that are available. I highly doubt they end up there, but just trying to think of other options if Meruelo did want to try and retain control of the team.
He sent out a flurry of tweets after the Tempe vote failed. I am sure he will make a deal if Meruelo wants to move there or if there is a group willing to buy the team and move it there.
They have 17 years left on the bonds at $14 million per year. For context the annual budget for the city is $2 billion. So even if they rent the arena to the team for $1 per year and give them all the revenues its not going to kill the city's financing.
Why would they do that when they can manage it themselves and make more money?
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Yukon Joe
Registered User
NHL will want to preserve franchise value above all else, and the newest benchmark is $950 mil for a team in a smallish market. But yes, the value of the Coyotes in Arizona is diminished.
NHL will impose a "relocation fee". I'm just pulling numbers out of my butt, but lets say $600 mil for the team, but $400 mil to the league as a relocation fee.
Meruelo has been a "good" owner so the league won't want to screw him and will want to make sure he doesn't lose money, but they don't want to give him a huge windfall either when that money could go to themselves.
Shwan
Registered User
AZ March Sports betting numbers came out and still not rosy for Meruelo.
Despite being the 2nd biggest month on the books for AZ @ $644.7M thanks to March Madness, Meruelo's Saharabets took in ~$38,000 on a $437,000 handle. That's about 0.7% of the state's total online handle of ~$640M which was the 4th lowest handle in the state. His adjusted revenue was 9th lowest of the 17 with 5 betting operations posting no revenue for the month (Desert Diamond losing ~$1M on a $28M handle, who says the house always wins?)
Would be interesting to hear if he thinks this sportbook license is worth the trouble to him at this point considering he hasn't expanded it to Vegas yet.
Despite being the 2nd biggest month on the books for AZ @ $644.7M thanks to March Madness, Meruelo's Saharabets took in ~$38,000 on a $437,000 handle. That's about 0.7% of the state's total online handle of ~$640M which was the 4th lowest handle in the state. His adjusted revenue was 9th lowest of the 17 with 5 betting operations posting no revenue for the month (Desert Diamond losing ~$1M on a $28M handle, who says the house always wins?)
Would be interesting to hear if he thinks this sportbook license is worth the trouble to him at this point considering he hasn't expanded it to Vegas yet.
GindyDraws
#HutchOut
After the whole thing fell apart in 2017, Tillman invested in more steakhouses. His portfolio is largely upscale eateries, and the Golden Nugget Casino. Only bringing this up cuz it's what his wheelhouse is.
The other issue is that Fertitta hasn't invested ounce of hockey in Houston. There hasn't been a facility built in the city proper that can have ice hockey practice or junior leagues, he didn't want to plonk down an ECHL team to see if there was still interest in the sport. It's just... The NHL is an asset, and that's it.
KC isnt getting a team in either league. It would be dumb for the mayor to not show interest when the subject is brought up its not happening.
The arena is owned by the city but is managed by AEG. Teams make money off the arena by owning it and/or managing it, neither is an option for a team moving to KC. At this point the arena is almsot 15 years old which means its about half way through its useful life. If a team was to come in they would need to spend significant money on upgarding the arena as I am not aware of any major upgrades since it opened.
Realistically the only local KC person that would own the team (i know the owner doesnt have to be local) is Hunt, and he was interviewed a month or so ago by a KC news organization. He basically said people should give up on the idea of a team (NHL or NBA) coming to KC any time soon that the people should take advantage of what they do have and be fully committed to it because they arent getting anything new. Hunt does own an ECHL team and a few years ago explored the idea of moving it to the AHL to be the Blues farm team but even that fell through.
Modern arenas have more than a 30 year lifespan. These aren't the bare, practically disposable concrete shells containing section after identical section of identical seats found in the old buildings from the 70s and early 80s. They're much more robustly built and have fundamentally better skeletons for upgrading. Sure, the suites may get renovated periodically. And the scoreboards may get replaced with bigger, higher resolution ones (that, ironically, actually weigh less than he ones they're replacing). But renovation, not replacement, is the way these buildings are going.
KevFu
Registered User
I agree, but the venues still need to have "good bones" for improvement. Lots of places built well after the early 80s aren't going to fall into that category. Anything built from 1989-1999 is going to be in a massive gray area of "this place can last forever" and "this got old in a hurry."
Some places were built "modern off a cookie-cutter" model, but really don't hold up to modern standards of today. Other places absolutely CAN stay modern for decades beyond 30 years.
A prime example is the Arizona Diamondbacks stadium, which LOOKS no less modern than other venues (and I personally think is a great experience). But there's a lot of "wasted space" and too many seats and not enough club/social areas with a view of the field.
And (Remember you heard it here first!) but the beloved San Francisco baseball stadium is going to get real old, real quick. It's a modern Wrigley/Fenway, whicih is a massive part of the charm and appeal and why people rank it high among stadium.... except the negatives of the place are the exact obstacles that push everyone to build new places: Too small concourses limiting points of sale. No room to add modern club suites and party/social areas in the outfield.
I think a place like SAP Center in San Jose... you can't really TELL that place is 25-35 years old. But Buffalo you definitely can.
End on a Hinote
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bleedblue94
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I don't much care about what done said publicly. I already said that. No matter what doan isn't going on record saying things that aren't PCI just said they brought him back. If you want to perceive that as “applauding” him that’s on you.
As promised… the link.
Podcast Player Archives - Arizona Sports
You highlighted that muerelo brought him back into the org while tossing some shade at barroway and chayka for their handling, if I was wrong in thinking you agreed with the move to bring down back in then my mistake...
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
So what you’re admitting to here is facts don’t mean anything if they don’t fit whatever narrative you choose to believe.
It was well publicized here locally how Doan was pushed out under Barroway and Chayka. Fan reaction was swift and it was nasty towards the ownership to the point where Barroway had to apologize in a press conference for how it was handled.
powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
I think it's hard to say.
Most recent transactions (minus the expansions) have happened including the arena or at the very least a multi-year lease contract. Coyotes do not have an arena to bundle inside a sale nor do they have a lucrative multi-year lease contract.
Given an arena is around 400M or to build, I wonder how much really are teams worth.
Heck take even Habs at 1,85B value...the Centre Bell by it's position is worth at least 40-45% of that. If Habs were to build a new arena, there is simply no land downtown Montreal to do so which increases Centre Bell's value.
Stumbledore
Registered User
I think even a cursory, ten-minute look at America at large would confirm that nowadays.
(Does anybody even use the term 'nowadays' any more?)
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