CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

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Stumbledore

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I don't want to turn this into a West Wing thread, but it's probably my favorite show that isn't sci-fi, at least. I still reference the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing semi-regularly (which is a weird thing to have the opportunity to reference frequently, but there you have it.) Also, bold choice to give Martin Sheen a minute long monologue in untranslated Latin in an empty church, but it worked so well in the moment.
That speech was nothing short of brilliant. (And I'll confess that I rewound it a couple of times to translate it for everyone else watching - but I had better Latin in those days.)

I know a lot of people who adopted the phrase "feckless thug" as a result of that episode.
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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Make no mistake... Shane Doan will always support the Coyotes remaining in Arizona.

Doaner's recent role in Arizona has been limited as an ambassadorial one. But he's been working a long time to get into the hockey ops part of a franchise and current GM Bill Armstrong has all the people he wants in those roles. There is just no room for Doan in an ops role at this time.

The reason he's going to Toronto is new GM Brad Treviling. They had a close working relationship while Treviling was the AGM in Arizona under Don Maloney and he'll get to renew that again.

I'm actually happy for Shane.

Ok fair enough. I can accept the argument that Doan wanted to move into hockey ops and he got a chance to do that while working with a long time friend. On the flip side you have to admit losing the dude who was the face of hockey in Arizona right when they have to restart the arena process isn't a great look.
 
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TheLegend

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Ok fair enough. I can accept the argument that Doan wanted to move into hockey ops and he got a chance to do that while working with a long time friend. On the flip side you have to admit losing the dude who was the face of hockey in Arizona right when they have to restart the arena process isn't a great look.

That depends on what narrative you want to project.

Doan was interviewed the other night about it and he was quite straightforward that this was an opportunity to get more involved with d2d operations which is what he wants and he gets to do it with someone he’s been friends with for more than two decades.

His family is staying in AZ. His son is a Coyotes prospect. He still supports the franchise and hockey in Arizona.

I could easily flip this and say Toronto might finally see playoff success because they brought in an icon of the Coyotes franchise and roster two players who got into hockey because of that same franchise.

Now that’s a look.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Stumbledore

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That depends on what narrative you want to project.

I could easily flip this and say Toronto might finally see playoff success because they brought in an icon of the Coyotes franchise and roster two players who got into hockey because of that same franchise.

Now that’s a look.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So I have read the boldfaced at least a dozen times and I fail to see how bringing in anyone from a failed franchise, local icon or not, will improve Toronto's playoff success. Not that I would ever want Toronto to have any success, you understand.

Elucidation appreciated.
 
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TheLegend

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So I have read the boldfaced at least a dozen times and I fail to see how bringing in anyone from a failed franchise, local icon or not, will improve Toronto's playoff success. Not that I would ever want Toronto to have any success, you understand.

Elucidation appreciated.

That’s the point…

Both are ridiculous presumptions. But here we are…
 
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TheLegend

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Tawnos

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Gov. Ned Lamont has group with money to buy Arizona Coyotes, move them to Hartford

Source (Video): www.wtnh.com/on-air/thisweekinconnecticut/gov-ned-lamont-has-group-with-money-to-buy-arizona-coyotes-move-them-to-hartford/

:laugh:

From the experience I've had in seeing interviews on this topic for 25 years, or whatever, that was about as clear of a "we're not getting the Coyotes, but I'm still excited about the idea and want the people to know I did my best" interview as I've ever seen.

Also, cripes... who wrote the copy for the intro to all of that?
 

TheLegend

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Gov. Ned Lamont has group with money to buy Arizona Coyotes, move them to Hartford

Source (Video): www.wtnh.com/on-air/thisweekinconnecticut/gov-ned-lamont-has-group-with-money-to-buy-arizona-coyotes-move-them-to-hartford/

What a coincidence..... Seems someone posted the tweet about this on the Coyotes forum at almost the same exact minute. :laugh:

Not going to belabor the point that most people have made already that Hartford has a slim to none chance of getting an NHL team.
 

powerstuck

Nordiques Hopes Lies
Jan 13, 2012
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Split down the middle with RDS.
Actually RDS only has ''local'' tv rights.
TVA Sports has rights to show all NHL games in French. RDS has local rights with Habs and Sens. Meaning then can only show the games if one of the two teams is involved.

TVA Sport, thru the national deal gets dibs on premium games even for the teams with local rights, in this exemple, they have all Saturday Habs games and nother day in the week (just can't remember which).

So if you are a Habs fan and want to watch all games in French, you do need RDS for 60ish games and TVASports for the remaining 22+playoffs.
 

TheGreenTBer

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Roadrage

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As much as I would love to see the iconic Whalers logo in the NHL on a full time basis, not going to happen for far too many financial reasons. Coyotes have a better chance of folding then moving to Hartford.
 

ponder719

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As much as I would love to see the iconic Whalers logo in the NHL on a full time basis, not going to happen for far too many financial reasons. Coyotes have a better chance of folding then moving to Hartford.
The only way I can see the Whalers logo taking the ice again on a consistent basis would be if Dundon's answer to the Wolves going independent was to purchase the Wolf Pack from the Rangers, and rename them the Whalers. (i.e., it's not happening.)
 
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aqib

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The only way I can see the Whalers logo taking the ice again on a consistent basis would be if Dundon's answer to the Wolves going independent was to purchase the Wolf Pack from the Rangers, and rename them the Whalers. (i.e., it's not happening.)
That would be cool though.
 
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GindyDraws

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The only way I can see the Whalers logo taking the ice again on a consistent basis would be if Dundon's answer to the Wolves going independent was to purchase the Wolf Pack from the Rangers, and rename them the Whalers. (i.e., it's not happening.)
The Wolf Pack had that brief run where they were the non-union Mexican equivalent Connecticut Whale for, like, three seasons.
 

Yukon Joe

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As much as I would love to see the iconic Whalers logo in the NHL on a full time basis, not going to happen for far too many financial reasons. Coyotes have a better chance of folding then moving to Hartford.

You're wrong.

You're not wrong about wanting to see the Whalers logo back, and you're not wrong for saying it's not going to happen.

BUt you're wrong for saying the Yotes have a better chance of folding. That is the one thing the NHL will never, ever, allow to happen. Above all else the thing the NHL is most concerned about is protecting franchise valuations. Just think about how much team values have gone up - from $50 million when Ottawa/Tampa came into the league, to almost one billion dollars now.

If the Coyotes were to fold that means the Coyotes have no franchise value - that they're worthless.

So yes - if left with no other options the NHL would much rather move the Yotes to Hartford than to fold them. Not that either is going to happen,
 

Roadrage

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You're wrong.

You're not wrong about wanting to see the Whalers logo back, and you're not wrong for saying it's not going to happen.

BUt you're wrong for saying the Yotes have a better chance of folding. That is the one thing the NHL will never, ever, allow to happen. Above all else the thing the NHL is most concerned about is protecting franchise valuations. Just think about how much team values have gone up - from $50 million when Ottawa/Tampa came into the league, to almost one billion dollars now.

If the Coyotes were to fold that means the Coyotes have no franchise value - that they're worthless.

So yes - if left with no other options the NHL would much rather move the Yotes to Hartford than to fold them. Not that either is going to happen,
Yeah sorry, I meant to say that in jist. Should have put a /s at the end of the Coyotes folding statement.
 

Tom ServoMST3K

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So we've officially entered "No chance of a relocation for next year" territory. I personally think we were there a while ago, but I don't think there's any kind of argument to be made a change in market could be made for next year.

I have never left "Lame duck year" Island since the vote results were announced.

As I've posted before, I think the most likely scenario is the team is in SLC for the start of the 2024 season with an announcement roughly in January of the move, with playing out extra seasons in Mullet after 23/24 in a close second place.

(Houston or Quebec wouldn't be surprising to me as well - I just think they're less likely than staying in Phoenix for another year after next, especially Houston, where I can't tell if Fertitta is playing a negotiating game, or legitimately has concerns about the future of pro sports franchise valuations.)

For that second option to come to fruition, there needs to be a real plan in motion to move to another building in Arizona, and while I bet we hear about many plans, I don't think any will get far enough along before selling to SLC makes more sense than playing out an indefinate number of seasons in a sub-AHL level building.
 

KevFu

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As I've posted before, I think the most likely scenario is the team is in SLC for the start of the 2024 season with an announcement roughly in January of the move, with playing out extra seasons in Mullet after 23/24 in a close second place.

For that second option to come to fruition, there needs to be a real plan in motion to move to another building in Arizona, and while I bet we hear about many plans, I don't think any will get far enough along before selling to SLC makes more sense than playing out an indefinate number of seasons in a sub-AHL level building.

Can you "show your work" on this a little bit more? It's always "easiest" to maintain the status quo, and not change something. So I'm having trouble seeing the dots connected to how selling to Salt Lake City makes the most sense.
 
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Yukon Joe

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So we've officially entered "No chance of a relocation for next year" territory. I personally think we were there a while ago, but I don't think there's any kind of argument to be made a change in market could be made for next year.

I have never left "Lame duck year" Island since the vote results were announced.

As I've posted before, I think the most likely scenario is the team is in SLC for the start of the 2024 season with an announcement roughly in January of the move, with playing out extra seasons in Mullet after 23/24 in a close second place.

(Houston or Quebec wouldn't be surprising to me as well - I just think they're less likely than staying in Phoenix for another year after next, especially Houston, where I can't tell if Fertitta is playing a negotiating game, or legitimately has concerns about the future of pro sports franchise valuations.)

For that second option to come to fruition, there needs to be a real plan in motion to move to another building in Arizona, and while I bet we hear about many plans, I don't think any will get far enough along before selling to SLC makes more sense than playing out an indefinate number of seasons in a sub-AHL level building.

So I certainly think all options are on the table. Including staying in Arizona. I really don't think the NHL is that afraid of playing in Mullett as long as there's a chance at getting a permanent home.

SLC seems to have a more committed and financially capable ownership group. What it doesn't have is an arena. In that it's the opposite of QC/Houston. So it's hard for me to handicap which option is most likely.

What I do disagree with you is the idea that they'll announce a move in January. The NHL will want to avoid a "lame duck" season - or even half a season. Come on you're a Winnipeg guy - do you remember how terrible turnout was in the '95-'96 "season to remember" year in Winnipeg? (up to the last handfull of games, when they suddenly started selling out once the end was really here).

You know how Bettman works - he'll continue to say "things are progressing in Arizona" up until they announce a move on the last day of the season (or somewhere around there)
 
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Tom ServoMST3K

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Can you "show your work" on this a little bit more? It's always "easiest" to maintain the status quo, and not change something. So I'm having trouble seeing the dots connected to how selling to Salt Lake City makes the most sense.

My reading mainly hinges on this point:

Enduring a few years in a 3.5k building if you've got a new arena deal right around the corner is one thing - Staying there indefinitely without anything realistic on the horizon is another.

I wouldn't put any one outcome over 50 per cent of happening, that's for sure.

My opinion should be taken with a huge grain of salt, considering I was pretty far off on my referendum prediction - I did recognize that reported high turnout was not a good sign though.

Bettman's vibe (and therefore, the BOG vibes) around the team has certainly shifted since the vote. The tea leaves around SLC are giving off the vibes of "This is our backup plan market".

This opinion is probably also fed by my overall opinion of the Tempe plan, which I was very high on. The Tempe plan was their best shot at getting a new building constructed in Arizona, and any other plan will require MORE public funds and backing, which it appears there isn't any political will for.

So that leaves us with existing buildings:

Return to Glendale? - No chance current ownership pulls it off, and I don't think they'll scrounge up another owner that could pull off that magic bean job - Could be wrong though.

Partnership with Suns - While there appears to be some political will there, It doesn't seem like Suns ownership is keen on the idea, and IIRC the building renovations to get it hockey ready would be almost prohibitive.
 
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Tom ServoMST3K

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What's your excuse?
So I certainly think all options are on the table. Including staying in Arizona. I really don't think the NHL is that afraid of playing in Mullett as long as there's a chance at getting a permanent home.

SLC seems to have a more committed and financially capable ownership group. What it doesn't have is an arena. In that it's the opposite of QC/Houston. So it's hard for me to handicap which option is most likely.

What I do disagree with you is the idea that they'll announce a move in January. The NHL will want to avoid a "lame duck" season - or even half a season. Come on you're a Winnipeg guy - do you remember how terrible turnout was in the '95-'96 "season to remember" year in Winnipeg? (up to the last handfull of games, when they suddenly started selling out once the end was really here).

You know how Bettman works - he'll continue to say "things are progressing in Arizona" up until they announce a move on the last day of the season (or somewhere around there)

That prediction is based on the experience of Winnipeg's 2011 relocation The '96 experience was well before my time.

I'd guess they'd want to give SLC ownership the knowledge they'll be hosting an NHL team in the fall pre all-star game, and at the very least, a way longer run-up than Winnipeg had in 2011.
 
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Yukon Joe

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That prediction is based on the experience of Winnipeg's 2011 relocation The '96 experience was well before my time.

I'd guess they'd want to give SLC ownership the knowledge they'll be hosting an NHL team in the fall pre all-star game, and at the very least, a way longer run-up than Winnipeg had in 2011.
Hey - thanks for reminding me I'm old!

Summer 1995 there was a last-minute attempt to save the Jets. They announced the team would stay - then the deal fell apart. So the Jets had a lame-duck year. They tried to sell it as a "Season to Remember", but really the fans just stayed away. For a team that always had attendance issues their attendance fell off a cliff. What was the point - the team was leaving. Fans did come back for the last handfull of games, and that last playoff series against Detroit was epic, but I think the league very much would want to avoid anything like that from happening.

Slightly different vibe, but I know the early days of Carolina had simialr issue - the first two seasons were played in Greensboro, even though it was always known their new arena was going to be in Raleigh. It was too far for fans from Raleigh to drive, but people in Greensboro didn't care about the team since it was going to move anyways. Ticket sales were atrocious.

*If* the Yotes move, the new owners will probably have more time behind the scenes to get ready, but I can't imagine the move being announced much before the end of the season just to preserve ticket sales.
 
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KevFu

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My reading mainly hinges on this point:

Enduring a few years in a 3.5k building if you've got a new arena deal right around the corner is one thing - Staying there indefinitely without anything realistic on the horizon is another.

I wouldn't put any one outcome over 50 per cent of happening, that's for sure.

My opinion should be taken with a huge grain of salt, considering I was pretty far off on my referendum prediction - I did recognize that reported high turnout was not a good sign though.

Bettman's vibe (and therefore, the BOG vibes) around the team has certainly shifted since the vote. The tea leaves around SLC are giving off the vibes of "This is our backup plan market".

This opinion is probably also fed by my overall opinion of the Tempe plan, which I was very high on. The Tempe plan was their best shot at getting a new building constructed in Arizona, and any other plan will require MORE public funds and backing, which it appears there isn't any political will for.

So that leaves us with existing buildings:

Return to Glendale? - No chance current ownership pulls it off, and I don't think they'll scrounge up another owner that could pull off that magic bean job - Could be wrong though.

Partnership with Suns - While there appears to be some political will there, It doesn't seem like Suns ownership is keen on the idea, and IIRC the building renovations to get it hockey ready would be almost prohibitive.

Thanks. I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just wanted to see the logic, because it seemed like something is missing... And that helped me uncover what's missing.

YES, Salt Lake has TWO arenas they can temporarily play in. But the team isn't moving without a Permanent Arena Solution.

They have put $40 million into making a temporarily solution as close to NHL standards as they possibly can, despite its massive shortfalls; and spending more money on another one makes little to no sense... unless the Permanent Arena Solution is reached in another market and there's just no reason to stay when your move has been announced.

Delta Center is an NBA Arena. It CAN hold hockey, but it's not a P-A-S for the team. During the SLC Winter Olympics, it was dubbed "The Ice Pit" because of sightlines, and it's easy to see why.


maxresdefault.jpg


Its' capacity for hockey is LISTED at 14,000 but - much like Barclays Center -- that doesn't mean there are 14,000 sellable seats with a view of a hockey game.

251579.jpg



Delta Center also has the problem of locker rooms. Can it have a "permanent" home locker room for the NHL team, the Jazz, and visiting locker rooms for an NBA and NHL team all at the same time? And can it do that without an investment of millions? And is that investment worth it if the bowl configuration for hockey is the Ice Pit like the pictures?

There's also Maverick Center, which holds an actual LEGITIMATE 10,100 for hockey. But it probably doesn't have NHL broadcast, locker room, or back of house the league needs; and while it might have some suites, they're not NHL quality/quantity.

The number one argument for Salt Lake City as the "most likely" outcome is that the Delta Center and Maverick Center both SOUND/SEEM a lot better than Mullett Arena.

AND it's easy to see that the Olympic bid makes Salt Lake City seem VERY LIKELY to build a new NBA Arena that can fit a hockey team within the next decade -- making it the most logical place a "Permanent Arena Solution" can happen in.

But the 2030 and 2034 Winter Olympics are still a way off from having their funding pass through the governments and getting shovels in ground; and there's a TON of moving parts here.

I don't think the NHL will be saying "committed to Phoenix, committed to Phoenix.... (abruptly) Oh, Now They're Moving to Salt Lake." Because "voting on what to build" in Salt Lake is going to be far more public: True North had previously built an NHL Arena, for their AHL team "for now," with the goal of getting the Jets back... all they needed was a backroom deal for a team to bring the Jets back. Salt Lake needs a very public funding package to build what they want to build
 
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