CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[KevFu]

Actually no, it's not projecting. I think the general consensus, which was also echoed by people here on the "vote yes" side was that the only way this whole project made any financial sense was the inclusion of the real estate development.

Also, the only reason it's impossible to prove or disprove is because we the public have too many questions and not enough answers about the finances of the team. Having said that, what little we do know, is enough to direct us towards a logical conclusion that the team and arena will not being able to be profitable enough for a very long time. That's why we can even make that statement regarding the need for the ED to begin with.

What you're saying isn't "Wrong" other than tying the financial viability of any sports franchise to the other part of the project.

"the only way it makes sense" is because GIVING free arenas to billionaires MAKES NO SENSE. Cities do something that makes no sense all the time, because they know someone else will if they don't, and they'll lose their team. That's it. It makes no sense to build ANY arena/stadium for a team, period. But the mixed use development actually CAN make sense for the City.

But saying the TEAM is going belly up if there's no mixed use component of a new venue is non-sense. It's hard to imagine a situation for any franchise being worse than what we've had for the Coyotes... who are STILL THERE, functioning as a team. Just like the Oakland A's have spent 35 years needing a new stadium in baseball.

We shall see if you are right when the next proposal comes out....if they build a rink all alone somewhere then I'm wrong.

Absolutely not. There's no ad hoc ergo proctor hoc here.

You're equating something that's just BETTER with being "necessary," when it's not, it's just that people always want the better option.

If your employer says "In order to keep you from moving to another company, we've decided to pay for your housing. You can move into any one of these three properties, and we'll pay for it." You're going to pick the BEST ONE. But what you're saying about the Coyotes is like saying you HAVE TO HAVE the biggest one with a swimming pool OR you'll be homeless. Which isn't true at all.

 

[powerstuck]

...

The Canadian national contract is the biggest ticking timebomb for the league. The nordiques could easily be the difference maker especially with a Canadian divison.

We have a local regional broadcaster who wants the team. This would be a provincial broadcast making the nordiques the team of Quebec. If this doesn't happen we have ever reason to think TVAS will start pushing the CPL/CFL as they are very interested in both leagues.

...

Just to add weight to this claim, Pierre-Karl Peladeau, the CEO of Quebecor Media, the party wanting to buy and own the Nordiques (also the naming rights holder for 30 years of the arena in Quebec City) just purchased the Montreal Alouettes (CFL) in March 2023.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Just to add weight to this claim, Pierre-Karl Peladeau, the CEO of Quebecor Media, the party wanting to buy and own the Nordiques (also the naming rights holder for 30 years of the arena in Quebec City) just purchased the Montreal Alouettes (CFL) in March 2023.

The fact this happened and hasn't been brought up in any of the threads in the past few weeks, tells you a whole lot.

You don't have to agree the Nordiques are coming back, but this idea Gary has in any shape or form written them off, requires a lot of ignorance. He might be doing absolutely everything in his power short of calling the president to stop it from happening, but he has to actively avoid it.

So many of the things being suggested by people are just running in total contradiction to what the supposed metrics are.

They have an arena, they can fill it with a bad team, and they can do it now. They have an automatic stakeholder in the team via TVAS, and they could contribute to the overall value of the next national deal, especially if we get a Canadian division. Top it off we know the Ottawa rejects have enough people that they should be able to team up PKP, to make him a minority owner and get them over the billion dollar bid threshold.

Quebec is a growing province.

Not to mention that it'd probably be the green bay packers of Canada overnight. A whole lot of people across the country would be supporters of the team. Not every single Canadian, but a small minority of hipsters would make Nordiques merch a cliche. Again no one wants to stress it, because it isn't proven. But we all know the Hipster appeal of the Nords is crazy. Especially when they have the aura of the rebel team. Heck, I'm literally wearing Nordiques merch right now, and it's only because I like the color.

 

[rojac]

Just to add weight to this claim, Pierre-Karl Peladeau, the CEO of Quebecor Media, the party wanting to buy and own the Nordiques (also the naming rights holder for 30 years of the arena in Quebec City) just purchased the Montreal Alouettes (CFL) in March 2023.

Sorry, can you clarify what PKP buying the Alouettes has to do with Quebec’s potential return to the NHL?

 

[Lady Stanley]

Sorry, can you clarify what PKP buying the Alouettes has to do with Quebec’s potential return to the NHL?

French Canadian buying a team that is associated with western Canadian anglos.

He's a nationalist if he buys the team, he's doing so because he thinks he can make that team the team of the French. If he's doing so it's because he wants the team for his french language television network TVA sports. TVA sports is where half of the Montreal games go. So it's entirely possible he's planning to abandon the Habs contract next time around, and just pump up cheaper leagues and use nationalism as a means garnering new fans.

I mean it's a potential business decision first, but nationalism and his business model overlap for obvious reasons. Keeping in mind he has the money to push CEBL/CFL and CPL within the province.

 

[takimaki]

It’s probably the final countdown for the current ownership group, as they seem to be fairly disingenuous about commitment to Arizona. One might even say they abused Bettman’s almost heroic level of patience and long suffering during this long soap opera.

The team leaving in Arizona though? Nah.

 

[rojac]

French Canadian buying a team that is associated with western Canadian anglos.

He's a nationalist if he buys the team, he's doing so because he thinks he can make that team the team of the French. If he's doing so it's because he wants the team for his french language television network TVA sports. TVA sports is where half of the Montreal games go. So it's entirely possible he's planning to abandon the Habs contract next time around, and just pump up cheaper leagues and use nationalism as a means garnering new fans.

I mean it's a potential business decision first, but nationalism and his business model overlap for obvious reasons. Keeping in mind he has the money to push CEBL/CFL and CPL within the province.

I think it’s very likely that TSN/RDS will re-up for the CFL rights. If that happens, the purchase does nothing for TVAS.

TVAS does not have a Habs contract. They are Rogers’ French language partner in the national deal. The only French language deal with the Habs is the RDS regional deal. So, pretty much you’re thinking he might have TVAS dump NHL hockey altogether?

I don’t doubt that he could help the small leagues gain some fans n Quebec. But I doubt the fanbases for the CFL, CEBL, and CPL in Quebec would come close to the fan base for NHL hockey in the province.

But I’m still missing how PKP dropping a few million on a CFL team says anything about the NHL returning to Quebec.

 

[Stumbledore]

Absolutely not. There's no ad hoc ergo proctor hoc here.

Totally agree with the content and intent of your post, but your Latin needs work.

Proctor is a Latin word meaning "to manage".

Propter is a Latin word meaning "because" or "because of".

Sister Veronica, my Latin teacher in the late 1950s, is smiling somewhere.

Sorry, can you clarify what PKP buying the Alouettes has to do with Quebec’s potential return to the NHL?

I think he just did.

It’s probably the final countdown for the current ownership group, as they seem to be fairly disingenuous about commitment to Arizona. One might even say they abused Bettman’s almost heroic level of patience and long suffering during this long soap opera.

The team leaving in Arizona though? Nah.

There's nothing heroic about Bettman.

The man is a weasel and an embarrassment to our profession. Then again, there's a lot of that going around lately in Washington and Florida.

 

[Lady Stanley]

I think it’s very likely that TSN/RDS will re-up for the CFL rights. If that happens, the purchase does nothing for TVAS.

TVAS does not have a Habs contract. They are Rogers’ French language partner in the national deal. The only French language deal with the Habs is the RDS regional deal. So, pretty much you’re thinking he might have TVAS dump NHL hockey altogether?

They split the habs games rights, they didn't do that just because. A lot of money is involved in that. Likely 10% of the Rogers contract, if I had to guess.

It's effectively local broadcast rights because few people outside of Quebec are watching french sports networks.

You gotta remember rogers doesn't car about the Habs, they care about what they make from what they pay.

I don’t doubt that he could help the small leagues gain some fans n Quebec. But I doubt the fanbases for the CFL, CEBL, and CPL in Quebec would come close to the fan base for NHL hockey in the province.

They don't need to. All they gotta do is undermine the value of tv rights. It costs him nothing to promote teams he owns, meanwhile it costs a fortune to buy rights to the nhl.

He can cross promote his network against his team(s).

But I’m still missing how PKP dropping a few million on a CFL team says anything about the NHL returning to Quebec.

His commitment to looking elsewhere for Quebec basted TV content.

There's only 3 pro teams in all of Quebec.

 

[Lions67]

It’s probably the final countdown for the current ownership group, as they seem to be fairly disingenuous about commitment to Arizona. One might even say they abused Bettman’s almost heroic level of patience and long suffering during this long soap opera.

The team leaving in Arizona though? Nah.

Shane Doan has just signed with and is now working for the Leafs. To me this screams LOUD that the jig is up. No way this club is staying in Arizona now. Doan was a lifer.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Shane Doan has just signed with and is now working for the Leafs. To me this screams LOUD that the jig is up. No way this club is staying in Arizona now. Doan was a lifer.

Link please?

 

[Lions67]

Link please?

It’s up on The Score app. Also 3 pages on tue main board

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Shane Doan has just signed with and is now working for the Leafs. To me this screams LOUD that the jig is up. No way this club is staying in Arizona now. Doan was a lifer.

I actually tend to agree with this reading. Doan was Phoenix all the way.

More evidence for the full on lame duck year next season.

(As most of us here predicted after the vote went the way it did.)

I'd expect we hear consistent whispers of potential local plans until roughly January, when a sale to SLC or Houston ownership for 300-400 million is announced.

At least drawing 3k will look half-decent in the mullet.

 

[Lions67]

I actually tend to agree with this reading. Doan was Phoenix all the way.

More evidence for the full on lame duck year next season.

(As most of us here predicted after the vote went the way it did.)

I'd expect we hear consistent whispers of potential local plans until roughly January, when a sale to SLC or Houston ownership for 300-400 million is announced.

At least drawing 3k will look half-decent in the mullet.

3k is being generous I think. I can see some nights full and others barely drawing 1,500

 

[jonathan613]

Looking at miami tonight you have a situation that is similar only in respect to an arena that is not ideally located. But of course the house is packed. The secret to the coyotes getting out of this rut is to swallow their pride, commit to glendale a significant amount of money (if need be theu can put the cash in an escrow account so the recent bad history does not crop up as an issue) , and focus on the on ice product. Eventually, when the team does better in winning NHL games, the coyotes will obtain the financial means to build an arena. The powers that be in AZ do no get it. Focus on winning on the ice, and then the rest will come.

As a capitals fan (live in NY but grew up in DC's maryland suburbs), i can tell you that for the 1st 10 years the franchise's future in DC was not guaranteed, But over the last 35 years or so, the constant winning ensured that we are now among the top 10 franchises in net worth in the league

 

[TheLegend]

Shane Doan has just signed with and is now working for the Leafs. To me this screams LOUD that the jig is up. No way this club is staying in Arizona now. Doan was a lifer.

Make no mistake... Shane Doan will always support the Coyotes remaining in Arizona.

Doaner's recent role in Arizona has been limited as an ambassadorial one. But he's been working a long time to get into the hockey ops part of a franchise and current GM Bill Armstrong has all the people he wants in those roles. There is just no room for Doan in an ops role at this time.

The reason he's going to Toronto is new GM Brad Treviling. They had a close working relationship while Treviling was the AGM in Arizona under Don Maloney and he'll get to renew that again.

I'm actually happy for Shane.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Looking at miami tonight you have a situation that is similar only in respect to an arena that is not ideally located. But of course the house is packed. The secret to the coyotes getting out of this rut is to swallow their pride, commit to glendale a significant amount of money (if need be theu can put the cash in an escrow account so the recent bad history does not crop up as an issue) , and focus on the on ice product. Eventually, when the team does better in winning NHL games, the coyotes will obtain the financial means to build an arena. The powers that be in AZ do no get it. Focus on winning on the ice, and then the rest will come.

As a capitals fan (live in NY but grew up in DC's maryland suburbs), i can tell you that for the 1st 10 years the franchise's future in DC was not guaranteed, But over the last 35 years or so, the constant winning ensured that we are now among the top 10 franchises in net worth in the league

Glendale would happily take them back on a long lease. Problem is the team can't be profitable in a stand alone arena setting....The NHL made that clear when the subsidy was cancelled. Plus I can't imagine Meruelo eating shit & circling back to them.

 

[TheLegend]

Glendale would happily take them back on a long lease. Problem is the team can't be profitable in a stand alone arena setting....The NHL made it clear of that when the subsidy was cancelled. Plus I can't imagine Meruelo eating shit & circling back to them.

Only way it would even be practical is if Meruelo bought Westgate from Bob Parsons and that's not going to happen.

 

[KevFu]

Totally agree with the content and intent of your post, but your Latin needs work.

Proctor is a Latin word meaning "to manage".

Propter is a Latin word meaning "because" or "because of".

Sister Veronica, my Latin teacher in the late 1950s, is smiling somewhere.

Ah yes. Thank you. I only know that from the West Wing, which I haven't seen since it left Netflix for HBO Max.

 

[powerstuck]

They split the habs games rights, they didn't do that just because. A lot of money is involved in that. Likely 10% of the Rogers contract, if I had to guess.

It's effectively local broadcast rights because few people outside of Quebec are watching french sports networks.

You gotta remember rogers doesn't car about the Habs, they care about what they make from what they pay.

They don't need to. All they gotta do is undermine the value of tv rights. It costs him nothing to promote teams he owns, meanwhile it costs a fortune to buy rights to the nhl.

He can cross promote his network against his team(s).






His commitment to looking elsewhere for Quebec basted TV content.

There's only 3 pro teams in all of Quebec.

French national rights are 1,2 billion out of the 5 billions Rogers agreed to pay for the 12 years contract, so that's 24%.

 

[Lady Stanley]

French national rights are 1,2 billion out of the 5 billions Rogers agreed to pay for the 12 years contract, so that's 24%.

Split down the middle with RDS.

 

[aqib]

Looking at miami tonight you have a situation that is similar only in respect to an arena that is not ideally located. But of course the house is packed. The secret to the coyotes getting out of this rut is to swallow their pride, commit to glendale a significant amount of money (if need be theu can put the cash in an escrow account so the recent bad history does not crop up as an issue) , and focus on the on ice product. Eventually, when the team does better in winning NHL games, the coyotes will obtain the financial means to build an arena. The powers that be in AZ do no get it. Focus on winning on the ice, and then the rest will come.

As a capitals fan (live in NY but grew up in DC's maryland suburbs), i can tell you that for the 1st 10 years the franchise's future in DC was not guaranteed, But over the last 35 years or so, the constant winning ensured that we are now among the top 10 franchises in net worth in the league

Glendale essentially offered to give them the arena and they said "nah we're out of here." The city washed their hands of the arena so they would have to make a deal with ASM whose only incentive to making a deal would be to stop the Coyotes from building an arena elsewhere in the Valley. Its pretty obvious that's not going to happen.

 

[Stumbledore]

Ah yes. Thank you. I only know that from the West Wing, which I haven't seen since it left Netflix for HBO Max.

Probably the best TV show ever made. A few years after it wrapped, one of the kids gave me the whole series on DVD.

 

[KevFu]

Probably the best TV show ever made. A few years after it wrapped, one of the kids gave me the whole series on DVD.

I binged it one summer on illegal download (back when Blockbuster was still a thing), and then once it hit Netflix, it became my go-to "fall asleep" show.

It was one of the best shows ever, although the "Sorkin is gone, let's solve the Arab-Israeli conflict and bring peace to the Middle East" years were rough. Still some great episodes and scenes, but the plots kept getting bigger and bigger when Sorkin made "the debate on sampling vs in person counting for the census" entertaining TV. The last season with the campaign was great though.

 

[ponder719]

I binged it one summer on illegal download (back when Blockbuster was still a thing), and then once it hit Netflix, it became my go-to "fall asleep" show.

It was one of the best shows ever, although the "Sorkin is gone, let's solve the Arab-Israeli conflict and bring peace to the Middle East" years were rough. Still some great episodes and scenes, but the plots kept getting bigger and bigger when Sorkin made "the debate on sampling vs in person counting for the census" entertaining TV. The last season with the campaign was great though.

I don't want to turn this into a West Wing thread, but it's probably my favorite show that isn't sci-fi, at least. I still reference the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing semi-regularly (which is a weird thing to have the opportunity to reference frequently, but there you have it.) Also, bold choice to give Martin Sheen a minute long monologue in untranslated Latin in an empty church, but it worked so well in the moment.