CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

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Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
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What's your excuse?
Hey - thanks for reminding me I'm old!

Summer 1995 there was a last-minute attempt to save the Jets. They announced the team would stay - then the deal fell apart. So the Jets had a lame-duck year. They tried to sell it as a "Season to Remember", but really the fans just stayed away. For a team that always had attendance issues their attendance fell off a cliff. What was the point - the team was leaving. Fans did come back for the last handfull of games, and that last playoff series against Detroit was epic, but I think the league very much would want to avoid anything like that from happening.

Slightly different vibe, but I know the early days of Carolina had simialr issue - the first two seasons were played in Greensboro, even though it was always known their new arena was going to be in Raleigh. It was too far for fans from Raleigh to drive, but people in Greensboro didn't care about the team since it was going to move anyways. Ticket sales were atrocious.

*If* the Yotes move, the new owners will probably have more time behind the scenes to get ready, but I can't imagine the move being announced much before the end of the season just to preserve ticket sales.

Haha - I'm not even old, but I was at a Junior A Spring camp, and the players there were born in 2008 - made me feel old.

I guess the question is how leaky do you think the NHL will be on this side of things?
 

Yukon Joe

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Haha - I'm not even old, but I was at a Junior A Spring camp, and the players there were born in 2008 - made me feel old.

I guess the question is how leaky do you think the NHL will be on this side of things?
Oh cripes - my hockey-loving kid was born in 2010. He could theoretically go to a junior camp in 2 years! OMFG.

I think they'll be a little bit leaky, but they'll always maintain deniability up until it's formally announced. Remember when the "Thrashers to Winnipeg" story was broke in the Blobe and Mail about 2 weeks before it was formally announced? League continued to deny it even though the report was 100% true.
 

MNNumbers

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Here's my logic.

1- I would be really surprised at Houston, because I doubt Fertitta pays.
2- That leaves Quebec as the only place with a playable rink. (Save Atlanta, maybe). But I do not think that the NHL wants to move to an eastern city, and I don't think QC is anything but an emergency landing spot (this is as close to emergency as you are likely see, however).
3- For geography, SLC makes the most sense (Houston equals this). However, the seating situation there seems a little delicate.

So, to me, the most likely thing is that the SLC owner knows he needs a new arena either way, and is confident he can get one. That puts him ahead of staying in Arizona, where there is no confidence of getting one.
 

Stumbledore

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Hartford is a small, decaying city in a dying, high-tax commuter state without any identity of its own, sandwiched between two large and powerful media markets.

There is ZERO chance a NHL team moves to Hartford.
I agree that Hartford will not get an NHL team. Not too sure about your stream of insults against a city which is going through the same cycles as most cities.
 

TheGreenTBer

JAMES DOES IT NEED A WASHER YES OR NO
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I agree that Hartford will not get an NHL team. Not too sure about your stream of insults against a city which is going through the same cycles as most cities.
I have nothing personal against Hartford, but tell me where I was wrong in any of that. If I'm wrong I have no problem being called out, but Connecticut generally kind of sucks and Hartford definitely sucks. I stand by that.
 
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jonathan613

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Aug 6, 2018
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Someone should correct me if i am wrong here, but with the assumption that the NHL will not force Alex Meruelo to sell the team (and I do not feel they should. You can quibble with decisions he has made, but they have not been because he has not tried to make it work in AZ), then any relocation will need to get his approval. If that is the case then for the team to survive at the new arena, thewy will need to take part ownership of any arena in a new city so they can collect ancillary revenue. I am not aware of any city who has formally reached out to the current coyotes ownership and offered them a piece of an existing arena.

For example, the Sprint Center in Kansas City is owned by the city according to wikipedia. Would the city be prepared to sell a majority or significant stake of the arena to meruelo?

I think that may be why a lot of this relocation talk is pie in the sky. I see relocation and meruelos ownership as mutually exclusive.
 

bleedblue94

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Jun 8, 2004
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That depends on what narrative you want to project.

Doan was interviewed the other night about it and he was quite straightforward that this was an opportunity to get more involved with d2d operations which is what he wants and he gets to do it with someone he’s been friends with for more than two decades.

His family is staying in AZ. His son is a Coyotes prospect. He still supports the franchise and hockey in Arizona.

I could easily flip this and say Toronto might finally see playoff success because they brought in an icon of the Coyotes franchise and roster two players who got into hockey because of that same franchise.

Now that’s a look.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So are we really suggesting that the coyotes would not consider appointing doan to a different role within the org that could/would allow him to be more involved w d2d ops (assuming that's the real reason and not just the public reason) rather than watch a franchise icon leave in possibly the most delicate time frame of the the franchises history? We are really suggesting that either this ownership group is that shortsighted (to not find a way to integrate him into d2d) or that people around hockey are that stupid (to believe that he had to go to Toronto to get this kind of job)?
 

Boris Zubov

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I have nothing personal against Hartford, but tell me where I was wrong in any of that. If I'm wrong I have no problem being called out, but Connecticut generally kind of sucks and Hartford definitely sucks. I stand by that.
As a new CT resident, I'm glad the perception of this State is held in such low regard. Hopefully those misconceptions will keep the population in check. There are so many things to like about this area that may not appeal to many people in their 20s or 30s, but being close to both NYC or Boston without having to deal with the hassles that are built in to those places is highly underrated. YMMV, but I'm wondering how much time you've actually spent in the region.

I've lived in several parts of the country & been to 46 States....In case you haven't traveled around lately, most big cities have taken a sharp nosedive. Seattle, San Fran, Portland, Vegas, Dallas, Chicago, NYC etc are all overcrowded, crime ridden & have massive homeless populations. Sure, Downtown Hartford is a ghetto & the other cities such as New Haven & Bridgeport are a mess, but not everyone needs or wants to live in a city. Overall those are relatively tiny parts of this State.

With that said, I've made it clear I don't believe Hartford or CT in general can support or even deserves a pro sports team. Frankly it's remarkable the Whalers survived as long as they did. If the Governor wasn't such a blow hard, he'd devote his energy to figuring out how to rebuild those inner cities I mentioned. It's a huge black eye that the capital city is such a shit hole in a state that is one of the wealthiest per capita.
 

TheLegend

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So are we really suggesting that the coyotes would not consider appointing doan to a different role within the org that could/would allow him to be more involved w d2d ops (assuming that's the real reason and not just the public reason) rather than watch a franchise icon leave in possibly the most delicate time frame of the the franchises history? We are really suggesting that either this ownership group is that shortsighted (to not find a way to integrate him into d2d) or that people around hockey are that stupid (to believe that he had to go to Toronto to get this kind of job)?

I wouldn't know.... I don't deal with third person narratives. Nor do I waste time speculating over nefarious-minded scenarios.

But it was Alex Meruelo who brought Doan back into the franchise after he was unceremoniously kicked to the curb as a player by Andrew Barroway and John Chayka.
 

TheGreenTBer

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As a new CT resident, I'm glad the perception of this State is held in such low regard. Hopefully those misconceptions will keep the population in check. There are so many things to like about this area that may not appeal to many people in their 20s or 30s, but being close to both NYC or Boston without having to deal with the hassles that are built in to those places is highly underrated. YMMV, but I'm wondering how much time you've actually spent in the region.

I've lived in several parts of the country & been to 46 States....In case you haven't traveled around lately, most big cities have taken a sharp nosedive. Seattle, San Fran, Portland, Vegas, Dallas, Chicago, NYC etc are all overcrowded, crime ridden & have massive homeless populations. Sure, Downtown Hartford is a ghetto & the other cities such as New Haven & Bridgeport are a mess, but not everyone needs or wants to live in a city. Overall those are relatively tiny parts of this State.

With that said, I've made it clear I don't believe Hartford or CT in general can support or even deserves a pro sports team. Frankly it's remarkable the Whalers survived as long as they did. If the Governor wasn't such a blow hard, he'd devote his energy to figuring out how to rebuild those inner cities I mentioned. It's a huge black eye that the capital city is such a shit hole in a state that is one of the wealthiest per capita.
Good to hear the state is improving since I was there last year.
 

LPHabsFan

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Someone should correct me if i am wrong here, but with the assumption that the NHL will not force Alex Meruelo to sell the team (and I do not feel they should. You can quibble with decisions he has made, but they have not been because he has not tried to make it work in AZ), then any relocation will need to get his approval. If that is the case then for the team to survive at the new arena, thewy will need to take part ownership of any arena in a new city so they can collect ancillary revenue. I am not aware of any city who has formally reached out to the current coyotes ownership and offered them a piece of an existing arena.

For example, the Sprint Center in Kansas City is owned by the city according to wikipedia. Would the city be prepared to sell a majority or significant stake of the arena to meruelo?

I think that may be why a lot of this relocation talk is pie in the sky. I see relocation and meruelos ownership as mutually exclusive.
Well if you want, you can also choose to believe that Muruelo has never had complete control over the Coyotes, and full ownership was 100% contingent on him getting an arena deal done, which means he's only the public owner but legal documents would show that the NHL is in complete control and therefore do whatever they want.
 

TheGreenTBer

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Curious, what part of the state did you visit? And where do you live now?
I've been all over the state, from the shitty areas to some very expensive NYC commuter areas.

Perhaps my perception of the state is clouded.
 

bleedblue94

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Jun 8, 2004
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I wouldn't know.... I don't deal with third person narratives. Nor do I waste time speculating over nefarious-minded scenarios.

But it was Alex Meruelo who brought Doan back into the franchise after he was unceremoniously kicked to the curb as a player by Andrew Barroway and John Chayka.
Correct, so it does not make sense that the same Alex meruelo would not facilitate a hockey ops position for doan rather than watch a franchise icon leave during this time of uncertainty even if it is to simply protect from these very optics. Although based on how they handled prep for the vote maybe this is more of a demonstration of being a little out of touch with his own market.
 

Boris Zubov

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May 6, 2016
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I've been all over the state, from the shitty areas to some very expensive NYC commuter areas.

Perhaps my perception of the state is clouded.
We don't all look for the same things, so if you're into city life with vast, thriving downtowns, I can see why CT isn't that appealing.

For me, after living in NYC for most of my life, the suburbs of LA for a bit & then Vegas for a decade, this laid back lifestyle is a nice change of pace. West Hartford is 15 minutes away & has all the amenities of Long Island with way less people. There's certainly trade offs, but with the state of the country at the moment, I'm not sure what place you can't say that about.
 

TheLegend

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Correct, so it does not make sense that the same Alex meruelo would not facilitate a hockey ops position for doan rather than watch a franchise icon leave during this time of uncertainty even if it is to simply protect from these very optics. Although based on how they handled prep for the vote maybe this is more of a demonstration of being a little out of touch with his own market.

Well if you want to remain in the world of apocalyptic rumors and speculation then go ahead. It's a megathread tradition. :laugh:

I'll stick to those things that we do know.
 
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Stumbledore

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I have nothing personal against Hartford, but tell me where I was wrong in any of that. If I'm wrong I have no problem being called out, but Connecticut generally kind of sucks and Hartford definitely sucks. I stand by that.
If your factual retort is to state that this sucks or that sucks or something else sucks, then ipso facto there's no point in continuing any discussion.

I stand by that.

PS: You might want to rethink "I have nothing personal against Hartford" vis a vis suckage.
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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As a new CT resident, I'm glad the perception of this State is held in such low regard. Hopefully those misconceptions will keep the population in check. There are so many things to like about this area that may not appeal to many people in their 20s or 30s, but being close to both NYC or Boston without having to deal with the hassles that are built in to those places is highly underrated. YMMV, but I'm wondering how much time you've actually spent in the region.

With that said, I've made it clear I don't believe Hartford or CT in general can support or even deserves a pro sports team. Frankly it's remarkable the Whalers survived as long as they did. If the Governor wasn't such a blow hard, he'd devote his energy to figuring out how to rebuild those inner cities I mentioned. It's a huge black eye that the capital city is such a shit hole in a state that is one of the wealthiest per capita.

I went to high school in Greenwich. CT was just never a place for young single people. It was always a place for families. I loved living there as a kid. Whenever people are moving to the NY area and ask me my take on where to live. If they have families I tell them to go to CT.

That being said unless Amazon had picked Hartford there will never be enough business to support a pro team in CT. Despite being home to an Ivy League school and having 3 more next door the talent just drives through CT on the way to Boston or NY.
 

TheLegend

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If your factual retort is to state that this sucks or that sucks or something else sucks, then ipso facto there's no point in continuing any discussion.

I stand by that.

PS: You might want to rethink "I have nothing personal against Hartford" vis a vis suckage.

Now if people (not including yourself) would rethink their Coyotes takes like this what a wonderful discussion we could have?? :D
 
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bam09

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How does this not end with Ishbia being offered the Coyotes for a song?
 

bleedblue94

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Well if you want to remain in the world of apocalyptic rumors and speculation then go ahead. It's a megathread tradition. :laugh:

I'll stick to those things that we do know.
It's not apocalyptic to point out that it's a contradiction to applaud the owner for bringing doan back to the org and then dismiss him leaving for an entry level d2d position elsewhere and suggesting it only happened bc of the opportunity coming up. If that is all it is then it's on the owner and org that they didn't offer the same, or if they did them something happened that doan didn't want that opportunity in arz. I say this all as someone that hates this circus for the org and fans. I don't think just bc doan left that means the coyotes are leaving, the above just doesn't add up for a franchise lifer, and I curious what else happened between doan and the org. Maybe he is sour on the owner for not putting more resources to close the vote?
 
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TheLegend

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It's not apocalyptic to point out that it's a contradiction to applaud the owner for bringing doan back to the org and then dismiss him leaving for an entry level d2d position elsewhere and suggesting it only happened bc of the opportunity coming up. If that is all it is then it's on the owner and org that they didn't offer the same, or if they did them something happened that doan didn't want that opportunity in arz. I say this all as someone that hates this circus for the org and fans. I don't think just bc doan left that means the coyotes are leaving, the above just doesn't add up for a franchise lifer, and I curious what else happened between doan and the org. Maybe he is sour on the owner for not putting more resources to close the vote?

Who said I'm applauding??

I simply gave you facts that flies into the face of a narrative.

Doan was on a local radio show this morning and re-emphasized his going to Toronto was not what people have been speculating over and over about. Nor anything you're trying to speculate about here.

When the segment drops on their website I'll post the link.
 

bleedblue94

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Jun 8, 2004
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Who said I'm applauding??

I simply gave you facts that flies into the face of a narrative.

Doan was on a local radio show this morning and re-emphasized his going to Toronto was not what people have been speculating over and over about. Nor anything you're trying to speculate about here.

When the segment drops on their website I'll post the link.
You and others applauded him for bringing doan back into the org, which was the right thing to do. Why get defensive about that? No one criticized that move.

Have we not learned that what is said to the public is not always the truth?

He can say whatever publically but Toronto was not the only org that could offer an entry d2d position in hockey ops, lord knows the coyotes would have room to add that. It just doesn't make sense, this isn't an AGM job or anything with that gravity.
 

Spydey629

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So, if the Senators are worth $950 million, where does that put the value of the Coyotes?

I have to think Meruelo sells if there truly is no Plan B.
 
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