CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Skidooboy]

Bro, idk if you realize this but everything you've continued to say about Phx's failed WHA team has nothing to do with your point. Because most WHA teams failed including the ones in good markets. This idea is obvious to everyone but apparently it ended up being too difficult to understand.

Regardless, your point is irrelevant anyway. Repeating the idea that "AZ has never worked for hockey therefore it never will" is kind of like saying, "Connor Ingram has never been an above average NHL goalie therefore he never will be" we all see how that's working out.

In the past, we've never had a good team in a centrally located arena. Now, it looks like we'll be getting both of those here in the next few years, and all of us will see what happens in real time. My strong suspicion is that we will be fine, Phoenix is the 5th or 6th largest metro in the country, there are clearly enough people here to support a team assuming it's not run like a tire fire (the way it has been for most of its ~30 years of existence). smh

yeah noone has said that 5000X since 1997 ever....
oh wait...success is always just another Arena deal, new ownership group, or Stanley cup win away.....

also you have a very limited and incorrect understanding of the WHA and how that went down, so not sure why you have any credibility on why AZ will work "this time"

Hockey teams come and go.

Montreal had three at one time IIRC....

You really have no point other than coming up with random historic Googles to throw shade at things.

Even then it doesn't really mean squat because for his own reasons, Alex Meruelo wants to own a team in Arizona.... period. If he can't get done after this then the odds are leaning very strongly that he will look at another market.

But until then, this is all a big food fight.

you are right.....I guess the last 50 years of utter failure is the only evidence I have....

 

[Shwan]

Phoenix City Councilmember Jim Waring, in whose district the land is located, said his office and team officials had a preliminary meeting about the prospect nearly two months ago. He said he hadn't heard updates since and was unsure how certain the deal was.

For the Coyotes to purchase state land, the team would need to ask the state to put it up for public auction. If the state agreed, it then would sell the land to the highest bidder.

The agency's website shows no sign yet of an auction scheduled for land in the north Phoenix area.

So this probably is what Xavier was talking about when he said that one of the sites needed to make a statutory announcement in ~45 days......Except that was what, in October and now we're heading into the New Year and per the article the State hasn't announced an auction yet.

Here's a recent KJZZ article explaining the auction process with highlights quoted by me.

ANGELA GONZALES: OK. There's two ways. One an applicant can say, "hey, we're interested in that parcel. We know it's state land, we know you're in charge of it. Can we bid on it? We'd like for you to create an auction for it." And so that's that developer or company will go out and they have to pay for all of the you know, the studies beforehand and they submit that to the state land. So they, they invest a lot of money before they even get a chance to bid on it. That's one way. Another way is the state Land Department will say, "hmm, we think this parcel of land will do really well. We think it's ready for development and they will actually put it out for bid and then see who comes to the table."

GONZALES: Those bidding wars have been so fun. Yeah, that's been crazy. I remember back in November 2020 when there was a, a bidding war with Brookfield, which is a big public home builder and some other home builders. And it was, it was insane. Within 15 minutes, That bid started at $68 million and it went all the way up to $245.5 million within 15 minutes. And so usually the bidding increments is only $100,000. so you have to go up by $100,000, you know, when you're competing, sometimes they went up as high as $5 million increments, like boom. They were just really serious about that.

So if the Coyotes were going the land auction route then it sounds not that promising if the nearest Phoenix City Councilperson hasn't heard from them in awhile given that if Meruelo wants to request the auction he has to do all the preliminary zoning/study work for it. Secondly, if that land is as valuable as coyotes fans think it is then Meruelo is going to have to pay a pretty penny for it.

The article does bring up another possibility though. Last year Honor Health outbid Banner for a ~48 acre parcel area (that was just about the Tempe Entertainment District's size projection) out of a land auction. That parcel is on the north end of 101/Hayden and was purchased for $84M.

Honor Health did this completely out of spite and apparently have no current desire to use the land.

After the auction, LaPorte said HonorHealth has no plans to build on the site and that area residents are currently sufficiently served by HonorHealth Scottsdale Thompson Peak Medical Center and the Mayo Clinic. He estimated the HonorHealth network’s current facilities have enough growth capacity to serve demand for at least the next 10 years but added this week’s land purchase gives HonorHealth still more growth opportunities.

So for Meruelo's brand this seems like the more plausible site. Banner did all the zoning/paperwork for the site already, and Honor Health is sitting on a parcel they don't really want so they'd probably sell it at a discount, and it's roughly the same size as the TED proposal so it wouldn't cost much to redesign to fit.

 

[LPHabsFan]

That's a new one. I guess player salaries / bonuses don't count and neither does the 25m annex that was built in Mullett. The team and its fans should be grateful that Uncle Gary is airlifting tens millions of dollars in duffel bags of cash to ASU (and the players) directly eh? Better for the players too, this way they don't even need to pay tax.

Seriously how do you even come up with something like this. And here you are proudly declaring you've been maintaining this idea... for years?

Again, the question is, why the hell would anyone with an ounce of business intelligence want to buy the team given it's financial situation? There is 0 financial benefit to owning the franchise. Even on resale, whatever value the team has would be lost in the debt that's attached to the team. Even with a relocation, a large chunk would go to the league in relocation fees for difference in market stuff that happened with Atlanta and Winnipeg.

So yes, I've said this multiple times over the years since Meruelo bought the team. Whatever costs there are on a yearly basis is covered by regular income, revenue sharing, and increased debt. The other question is who owns the debt? I know in the past that the NHL has gotten various lines of credit to give to teams which means it may not be the team that's liable for payments but rather the NHL. Even the money for the annex was most likely paid for by the same debt.

The only money Meruelo has probably put in to anything has been the arena development and all of its costs.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Again, the question is, why the hell would anyone with an ounce of business intelligence want to buy the team given it's financial situation? There is 0 financial benefit to owning the franchise. Even on resale, whatever value the team has would be lost in the debt that's attached to the team. Even with a relocation, a large chunk would go to the league in relocation fees for difference in market stuff that happened with Atlanta and Winnipeg.

So yes, I've said this multiple times over the years since Meruelo bought the team. Whatever costs there are on a yearly basis is covered by regular income, revenue sharing, and increased debt. The other question is who owns the debt? I know in the past that the NHL has gotten various lines of credit to give to teams which means it may not be the team that's liable for payments but rather the NHL. Even the money for the annex was most likely paid for by the same debt.

The only money Meruelo has probably put in to anything has been the arena development and all of its costs.

Oh come on - even if you're incredibly cynical you can see why someone would want to buy the team. Now because I'm being cynical I won't include "because the team becomes really successful and popular", but how about:

-increase in franchise value. The team has undoubtedly increased in value a lot since 2019.
-real estate play. Build a new arena, but then develop land around the new arena as well.
-casino license. Hasn't paid off so far, but has potential
-increase in personal profile


As for NHL lines of credit, I believe those are more along the lines of "NHL guarantees the team debt" rather than the NHL just taking out a loan and giving the money to the team.

 

[ponder719]

If you haven't heard The Intermediary Countdown......it sucks! As does The Penultimate Countdown and The Antepenultimate Countdown.

The series really went downhill after Final Countdown X. The switch to MMORPG killed it, and don't get me started about Final Countdown X-2.

 

[PainForShane]

The argument would be (and I didn't make the argument) is that Meruelo took over the Coyotes primarily by just assuming the existing debt. After some of the earlier scandals I can't believe the NHL would let him take over without putting some of his own money in, but it's possible he didn't put in very much.

The $25 million for the Mullett Annex could have then been financed through further debt, since the value of NHL franchises has gone up since 2019.

So yeah, the idea he hasn't paid a dime seems wrong, but it's possible he's put very little of his own money in.

Nah man. That's your argument. That's not his argument or the argument I pushed back on, not even close or in my opinion not even related at all. If you fully read the guy's response (which I assume you have since you've already responded), you can see that he literally said "it may not be the team that's liable for payments but rather the NHL." Which basically means he repeated the claim that the NHL, not Alex Meruelo, is involved in making payments on behalf of the Coyotes. Which obviously is insane. But, apparently he 100% believes it and imo does not appear to be actively trolling. Also to no one's surprise, at least one other person agrees with this insane idea just because some ppl are such haters they'll support anything anti-coyotes no matter how little sense it makes.

Anyway if you want to white knight the guy that's fine, but next time I'd encourage you to fully understand the argument first before you do so. Just read the response you wrote above, as you probably can see by now you went out of your way to defend a poster who, at best, is not representing anything even close to a reasonable opinion

 

[TheLegend]

you are right.....I guess the last 50 years of utter failure is the only evidence I have....

And all those other teams that folded were utter failures.

As I indicated earlier…. rando Googling doesn’t make you much of an expert other than being a shade salesman.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Anyway if you want to white knight the guy that's fine, but next time I'd encourage you to fully understand the argument first before you do so. Just read the response you wrote above, as you probably can see by now you went out of your way to defend a poster who, at best, is not representing anything even close to a reasonable opinion

It gets called "steel-manning" (the opposite of straw-manning) - take an argument you disagree with but phrase it in the most charitable and believable way.

Like I said I think he goes much too far, but asserting Meruelo has not put very much money into the Coyotes is certainly possible.

 

[Skidooboy]

And all those other teams that folded were utter failures.

As I indicated earlier…. rando Googling doesn’t make you much of an expert other than being a shade salesman.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What's funny is you think...after all this time.. and all the discussions, all the threads, all the news, all the liars conmen and false hopes....all the post responses, promises and assurances you have give people that "This time IS different" over the years, (and you have told me on several occasions, most recently Tempe, that it was pretty much a Done Deal, 100%.....)
somehow, you think you have an ounce of credibility or evidence pointing to you being able to apply critical thinking to this topic.

I would think you would tire of being 100% wrong over and over and over again.... but hey...Way to stand steadfast in your resolve in the face of undeniable history. I may not agree but I love your moxy.

 

[PainForShane]

It gets called "steel-manning" (the opposite of straw-manning) - take an argument you disagree with but phrase it in the most charitable and believable way.

Like I said I think he goes much too far, but asserting Meruelo has not put very much money into the Coyotes is certainly possible.

Bro, that's not what he said. He literally said (in context) "I've maintained for years that Meruelo hasn't spent a single dime on the Coyotes and that he's only the owner on paper." And then in the next post he clarified what he meant by saying, "it may not be the team that's liable for payments but rather the NHL." Meaning he doesn't think Meruelo is actually paying the operating costs of the team. Not that hard to understand what he means or has been saying.

Anyway the first statement is what I directly responded to. It's not called steel-manning, it's called responding to what the guy actually said and meant.

Lmk if you have any questions, or better yet ask the guy what exactly he meant if you can't figure it out by his posts. What you just said (bolded above) and what he has been saying are not even close to the same thing. At all

 

[TheLegend]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What's funny is you think...after all this time.. and all the discussions, all the threads, all the news, all the liars conmen and false hopes....all the post responses, promises and assurances you have give people that "This time IS different" over the years, (and you have told me on several occasions, most recently Tempe, that it was pretty much a Done Deal, 100%.....)
somehow, you think you have an ounce of credibility or evidence pointing to you being able to apply critical thinking to this topic.

I would think you would tire of being 100% wrong over and over and over again.... but hey...Way to stand steadfast in your resolve in the face of undeniable history. I may not agree but I love your moxy.

Seems like it’s been the other way around…. You’ve been making these drive-by visits for a long time with your screaming frozen takes predicting this franchise would be gone and after 14 years of this they’re still here.

OTOH…. I’ve got no reservations on whether the franchise stays or not. Been that way since 2010.

But do keep up the shade Googling…. I can use the entertainment.

 

[TheLegend]

While I’m here…

Seeing from a source I trust, state land is not in the equation.

It’s currently privately owned land they’re looking to buy.

 

[Shwan]

I wish Good Luck to Xavier and Alex against the North Phoenix NIMBY all star team

DefendDesertRidge

defenddesertridge.godaddysites.com

 

[Skidooboy]

Seems like it’s been the other way around…. You’ve been making these drive-by visits for a long time with your screaming frozen takes predicting this franchise would be gone and after 14 years of this they’re still here.

OTOH…. I’ve got no reservations on whether the franchise stays or not. Been that way since 2010.

But do keep up the shade Googling…. I can use the entertainment.

LOL you just can't stop yourself...
I mean what is wrong with googling facts?
Simple straight forward questions and answers.
Has AZ had more than 1 pro hockey team over the last 49 years? yes
Have any pro hokey teams been financially viable in AZ over the last 50 years? No

and sure I've been wrong about how long they would last.....but that has nothing to do with if the SHOULD exist....

What I have not been wrong about is the utter failure of the market to provide support, ticket sales, TV views, Merch sales, or any other metric we judge a healthy sports franchise by. Because AZ is not a Hockey Market. And continually forcing it to be one for 50 years hasn't changed that at all.

which is was and has been my primary argument. vs you saying "they will be this time" over and over again.

(editied to change "we" to "they")

 

[TheLegend]

LOL you just can't stop yourself...
I mean what is wrong with googling facts?
Simple straight forward questions and answers.
Has AZ had more than 1 pro hockey team over the last 49 years? yes
Have any pro hokey teams been financially viable in AZ over the last 50 years? No

and sure I've been wrong about how long they would last.....but that has nothing to do with if the SHOULD exist....

What I have not been wrong about is the utter failure of the market to provide support, ticket sales, TV views, Merch sales, or any other metric we judge a healthy sports franchise by. Because AZ is not a Hockey Market. And continually forcing it to be one for 50 years hasn't changed that at all.

which is was and has been my primary argument. vs you saying "they will be this time" over and over again.

(editied to change "we" to "they")

All this projection isn’t getting you anywhere.

If I had to pick a meme for your latest screed Gene Wilder’s Willy Wonka would fit perfectly.

 

[Skidooboy]

All this projection isn’t getting you anywhere.

If I had to pick a meme for your latest screed Gene Wilder’s Willy Wonka would fit perfectly.

notice how I always am talking about Hockey and business and the failure of the market...and you are always talking about me?
that tells me so very much about YOU.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I wish Good Luck to Xavier and Alex against the North Phoenix NIMBY all star team

DefendDesertRidge

defenddesertridge.godaddysites.com

I take it you just use this as an example of North Phoenix NIMBY-ism, and not that it has anything to do with the Coyotes?

 

[Shwan]

I take it you just use this as an example of North Phoenix NIMBY-ism, and not that it has anything to do with the Coyotes?

These guys have been harassing Vestar for about half a year over trying to build a Grocery store anchored strip mall by Pinnacle HS and the newest rumored Coyotes site is just about 2 miles east of that.

Consider these concerns :
1.It will add more traffic problems to all parts of the community.
2.It will affect the safety of our kids going to Pinnacle High School and Fireside Elementary.
3.High School students’ behaviors will change for the worse with these shops close by.
4.It will add to noise, littering, light and other pollutions.
Traffic from delivery trucks will increase at all hours of the day.
5.It will attract all of the problems you see already at Desert Ridge Marketplace; ie: fast food restaurants and gas stations today.

So regardless of whether this potential new theoretical plot is properly zoned or not, I doubt these people are going to be too thrilled about having a sports arena and sportsbook in their neighborhood.

 

[Tawnos]

While I’m here…

Seeing from a source I trust, state land is not in the equation.

It’s currently privately owned land they’re looking to buy.

Interesting news if your source is right. What changes if it’s private land?

As for some of the other comments, there’s a lot of yelling into the void in this thread right now against fictional people who think “this time is different” and who believe that selection of a site is the same as shovels in the ground. It’s not really what I see going on in here at this point, which isn’t to say that it hasn’t happened in the past. If people want to yell into the void, that’s fine. But there’s going to be pushback and even some mockery about it.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Interesting news if your source is right. What changes if it’s private land?

As for some of the other comments, there’s a lot of yelling into the void in this thread right now against fictional people who think “this time is different” and who believe that selection of a site is the same as shovels in the ground. It’s not really what I see going on in here at this point, which isn’t to say that it hasn’t happened in the past. If people want to yell into the void, that’s fine. But there’s going to be pushback and even some mockery about it.

The positive would be the land doesn't need to go to an unpredictable public auction.

The bad would be that land is already zoned, so may have to go through re-zoning (which brings up NIMBY sentiments).

 

[TheLegend]

Interesting news if your source is right. What changes if it’s private land?

AFAIK not much. Still going to have to figure out how to avoid any referendums and/or court challenges.

As for some of the other comments, there’s a lot of yelling into the void in this thread right now against fictional people who think “this time is different” and who believe that selection of a site is the same as shovels in the ground. It’s not really what I see going on in here at this point, which isn’t to say that it hasn’t happened in the past. If people want to yell into the void, that’s fine. But there’s going to be pushback and even some mockery about it.

As @1CasualFan put it….

“Megathread is going to megathread.”

 

[Coyotedroppings]

you are right.....I guess the last 50 years of utter failure is the only evidence I have....

49, when you gonna get your facts straight?

 

[Shwan]

Interesting news if your source is right. What changes if it’s private land?

Certainly will be an amazing tale if indeed this source is right, how Alex Meruelo was able to purchase land that was in final preparations to become a high value apartment complex.

That probably didn't come cheap in terms of straight private real estate sales.

 

[aqib]

Viola does seem like a guy who just likes owning an NHL team, so yes he's probably not selling them to PKP or Fertita to relocate.

But could he try to convince a city somewhere else to build him an arena? Maybe.

He could but from what I've read he likes having a base in Florida. Now if he doesn't get a deal in Fort Lauderdale or another downtown in Broward County could he sell? Maybe. But as much as I would like to see the Panthers leave I don't see it happening given the attendance jump.

 

[TheLegend]

notice how I always am talking about Hockey and business and the failure of the market...and you are always talking about me?
that tells me so very much about YOU.

Keep projecting… you periodically come in with the same “it’s not a hockey market” rhetoric and that’s about it.

Digging up 50 years worth of shade really doesn’t mean squat when you look at it the context the population of Phoenix Metro 50 years ago was 1/6th that it is now.

Nor take in the fact that the NHL came to Arizona as a last minute plan B because they couldn’t get back into Minnesota.

There’s never ever been a full on concise plan to make it work here. Even Steve Ellman bought the franchise as a means for something else (which ended up being Westgate). But he was playing the OPM game and the 2008 recession caved him in.

Everything else inbetween Ellman up to before Alex Meruelo has been a band aid effort… at best.

Now the Coyotes are finally owned by someone with a 40-year record of turning failing businesses around. With a ZERO failure rate. Whether he can pull this franchise out from the massive hole it’s dug itself before he bought it remains to be seen.