CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Devils 3silverones]

Taking on the original debt of, or paying $300 million for an NHL franchise. Then spending another $50-60 million to move to a temporary arena while developing a $2 billion plus ED. Plus eating losses outside of what the max revenue sharing can cover.

That's one hell of a loss leader you're descibing for something you wouldn't care about.

Well good evening, nice. To see everything is back on sked.
@TheLegend you and I are too long in the tooth for this... The bite factor is there no doubt.
I do recall the article you spoke of regarding sportsbook etc earlier.
Hope ya and Mrs. are well.
I do wonder of your thoughts of "mentioned site".

I am NOT familiar with that area/land. I will look it up, just not until the weekend.

Ill read your opinion.. Thanks.

 

[TheLegend]

Well good evening, nice. To see everything is back on sked.
@TheLegend you and I are too long in the tooth for this... The bite factor is there no doubt.
I do recall the article you spoke of regarding sportsbook etc earlier.
Hope ya and Mrs. are well.
I do wonder of your thoughts of "mentioned site".

I am NOT familiar with that area/land. I will look it up, just not until the weekend.

Ill read your opinion.. Thanks.

Haven’t been to that area in a while but there’s a lot of open space there. Much of it part of the State of Arizona’s land trust. Some of it privately owned…. bought from the trust years ago. Can’t really say much more than that at the moment.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

Haven’t been to that area in a while but there’s a lot of open space there. Much of it part of the State of Arizona’s land trust. Some of it privately owned…. bought from the trust years ago. Can’t really say much more than that at the moment.

Well, I appreciate the response. Land is good to buy, own, if we can use it.. Or get a return. I've done it. And sold a 6 acre island. Because I couldn't do the up-keep.
I may... Will, be now keeping an ear on this again..

CF 2 still around?...

 

[Yukon Joe]

They receive a substantial subsidy from the county. They're not going anywhere.

Until the lease is over.

I do think Florida is at a high risk to relocate, but not in the immediate future.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Until the lease is over.

I do think Florida is at a high risk to relocate, but not in the immediate future.

Sure. Bettman & his bosses will fight tooth & nail for one large metro, southern market, but not another?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Taking on the original debt of, or paying $300 million for an NHL franchise. Then spending another $50-60 million to move to a temporary arena while developing a $2 billion plus ED. Plus eating losses outside of what the max revenue sharing can cover.

That's one hell of a loss leader you're descibing for something you wouldn't care about.

I've maintained for years that Meruelo hasn't spent a single dime on the Coyotes and that he's only the owner on paper. He would only have to actually pay the purchase price and take over the debt if he's successful in getting the arena done. As you said, it's a hell of a losing situation. Why would a seemingly intelligent businessman spend all that money on a money losing entity with a questionable future?

Thanks for telling us. No one would have realized that the selection of a site is only one step in the process without your help.

Well, considering the excitement and proclamations of the teams future finally being secured at pretty much every step of the way when team news breaks (new owner or arena related), it actually is necessary for some in here.

 

[PainForShane]

I've maintained for years that Meruelo hasn't spent a single dime on the Coyotes and that he's only the owner on paper.

That's a new one. I guess player salaries / bonuses don't count and neither does the 25m annex that was built in Mullett. The team and its fans should be grateful that Uncle Gary is airlifting tens millions of dollars in duffel bags of cash to ASU (and the players) directly eh? Better for the players too, this way they don't even need to pay tax.

Seriously how do you even come up with something like this. And here you are proudly declaring you've been maintaining this idea... for years?

 

[Shwan]

Well, considering the excitement and proclamations of the teams future finally being secured at pretty much every step of the way when team news breaks (new owner or arena related), it actually is necessary for some in here.

 

[BAdvocate]

I could have sworn a previous thread has used this song in the title.

If you haven't heard The Intermediary Countdown......it sucks! As does The Penultimate Countdown and The Antepenultimate Countdown.

 

[MNNumbers]

I've been paying attention to this saga for a decade. As it is, I now live in the Phoenix Valley. My initial interest was for the City of Glendale, because I believed that the NHL was taking advantage of a naive city council. I still believe that, in some respects.

However, I was not opposed to the TED concept. there was some government involvement in that, but not to the level to rise to an egregious thing on the part of Meruelo. Many developers and industries are granted some tex abatements from cities to bring their business to town.

This next idea.....I don't really care as long as it Meruelo's own money. He can do anything he wants with it.

The issue of 'worthy markets' and such holds a lot less interest to me. Most places have ups and downs in attendance. Chicago has. Winnipeg does right now. Pittsburgh has.

Who cares, as along as the owner pays his own bills and fulfills his contractual obligations.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I said the Panthers need to get out sunrise & get a new arena closer to Miami or relocate within state like Orlando because the longer they stay in that arena in Sunrise which is one the worst in the League & it is getting old the harder it will to keep it in Florida.

Relocating within the state is still relocating. Orlando is like a 4 hour drive from Miami. In the northeast, there's like 4 franchises within that distance.

 

[Llama19]

Arizona Coyotes on the hunt for state trust land north of Loop 101 in northeast Phoenix

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes are looking to buy state trust land north of Loop 101 and west of Scottsdale Road for a new arena in the team's continuing quest for a permanent home.

Phoenix City Councilmember Jim Waring, in whose district the land is located, said his office and team officials had a preliminary meeting about the prospect nearly two months ago. He said he hadn't heard updates since and was unsure how certain the deal was.

For the Coyotes to purchase state land, the team would need to ask the state to put it up for public auction. If the state agreed, it then would sell the land to the highest bidder.

Revenue from the sale would go toward State Land Department beneficiaries: public schools, universities and jail facilities.

The agency's website shows no sign yet of an auction scheduled for land in the north Phoenix area.

City Councilmembers Waring, Kevin Robinson, Laura Pastor and Debra Stark indicated they were open to the Coyotes coming to Phoenix but not particularly willing to offer incentives to attract the team."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2023/12/07/arizona-coyotes-looking-at-northeast-phoenix-for-new-area/71803365007/

 

[awfulwaffle]

Arizona Coyotes on the hunt for state trust land north of Loop 101 in northeast Phoenix

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes are looking to buy state trust land north of Loop 101 and west of Scottsdale Road for a new arena in the team's continuing quest for a permanent home.

Phoenix City Councilmember Jim Waring, in whose district the land is located, said his office and team officials had a preliminary meeting about the prospect nearly two months ago. He said he hadn't heard updates since and was unsure how certain the deal was.

For the Coyotes to purchase state land, the team would need to ask the state to put it up for public auction. If the state agreed, it then would sell the land to the highest bidder.

Revenue from the sale would go toward State Land Department beneficiaries: public schools, universities and jail facilities.

The agency's website shows no sign yet of an auction scheduled for land in the north Phoenix area.

City Councilmembers Waring, Kevin Robinson, Laura Pastor and Debra Stark indicated they were open to the Coyotes coming to Phoenix but not particularly willing to offer incentives to attract the team."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2023/12/07/arizona-coyotes-looking-at-northeast-phoenix-for-new-area/71803365007/

Funny, they gave incentives to the Suns.

 

[aqib]

Until the lease is over.

I do think Florida is at a high risk to relocate, but not in the immediate future.

The lease runs through 2028 but they have an out clause starting now if they hit certain loss numbers. I am guessing with the pandemic they probably hit those numbers. But Viola has no desire to be in any of the rumored relocation markets. He pointed out he didn't speak French and I doubt Hamilton has any appeal to him.

That being said their attendance has been good last year and this year. They will eventually need a new arena. Somewhere in a downtown.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Sure. Bettman & his bosses will fight tooth & nail for one large metro, southern market, but not another?

The situation in Phoenix is different than the situation in Atlanta is different from the situation in Miami.

It's often argued the league didn't fight "tooth and nail" in Atlanta, but only because the current owner didn't want the team and they were being kicked out of the arena. Perhaps the league could/should have allowed the Thrashers to play in a college-sized rink, but I'm not even sure such a thing existed at the time.

The league did fight hard in Phoenix because for the longest time they had a town in Glendale that very much did want the team to stay, so they had a home (that was purpose-built for the team). Once they were kicked out of Glendale they then thought they had a pretty good deal with Tempe, which fell through. At this point who knows what is happening.

The situation in Florida is more like Phoenix. The Panthers have an arena, built in particular for them. They also have a lease that hasn't been broken by a bankruptcy court, so they're not going anywhere for the life of the lease.

But the Panthers lease expires in 2028.

The Panthers have had poor attendance and their rink is far from metro Miami. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Panthers start making noise about wanting a downtown-ish arena or they might relocate starting in I dunno 2025.

 

[BMN]

Relocating within the state is still relocating. Orlando is like a 4 hour drive from Miami. In the northeast, there's like 4 franchises within that distance.

Agreeing with @AtlantaWhaler here, as long as there is a Tampa Bay Lightning, I cannot ever imagine a NHL team in Orlando.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That's a new one. I guess player salaries / bonuses don't count and neither does the 25m annex that was built in Mullett. The team and its fans should be grateful that Uncle Gary is airlifting tens millions of dollars in duffel bags of cash to ASU (and the players) directly eh? Better for the players too, this way they don't even need to pay tax.

Seriously how do you even come up with something like this. And here you are proudly declaring you've been maintaining this idea... for years?

The argument would be (and I didn't make the argument) is that Meruelo took over the Coyotes primarily by just assuming the existing debt. After some of the earlier scandals I can't believe the NHL would let him take over without putting some of his own money in, but it's possible he didn't put in very much.

The $25 million for the Mullett Annex could have then been financed through further debt, since the value of NHL franchises has gone up since 2019.

So yeah, the idea he hasn't paid a dime seems wrong, but it's possible he's put very little of his own money in.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The lease runs through 2028 but they have an out clause starting now if they hit certain loss numbers. I am guessing with the pandemic they probably hit those numbers. But Viola has no desire to be in any of the rumored relocation markets. He pointed out he didn't speak French and I doubt Hamilton has any appeal to him.

That being said their attendance has been good last year and this year. They will eventually need a new arena. Somewhere in a downtown.

Viola does seem like a guy who just likes owning an NHL team, so yes he's probably not selling them to PKP or Fertita to relocate.

But could he try to convince a city somewhere else to build him an arena? Maybe.

 

[MeHateHe]

Arizona Coyotes on the hunt for state trust land north of Loop 101 in northeast Phoenix

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes are looking to buy state trust land north of Loop 101 and west of Scottsdale Road for a new arena in the team's continuing quest for a permanent home.

Phoenix City Councilmember Jim Waring, in whose district the land is located, said his office and team officials had a preliminary meeting about the prospect nearly two months ago. He said he hadn't heard updates since and was unsure how certain the deal was.

For the Coyotes to purchase state land, the team would need to ask the state to put it up for public auction. If the state agreed, it then would sell the land to the highest bidder.

Revenue from the sale would go toward State Land Department beneficiaries: public schools, universities and jail facilities.

The agency's website shows no sign yet of an auction scheduled for land in the north Phoenix area.

City Councilmembers Waring, Kevin Robinson, Laura Pastor and Debra Stark indicated they were open to the Coyotes coming to Phoenix but not particularly willing to offer incentives to attract the team."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2023/12/07/arizona-coyotes-looking-at-northeast-phoenix-for-new-area/71803365007/

Okay, but what regulatory hurdles would this have to clear before they could start building? Are there zoning changes required? Environmental assessments? Something else?

This line also caught my eye

Now, the clock is ticking for the Coyotes. The team has just over two years to close on a deal and construct a new professional hockey arena before its contract with ASU expires

Does anyone think that's a realistic timeline? Designing and building an arena in two years is ambitious. Factor in the fact that there is currently no location for it and if this is the path forward, then there still needs to be a public auction (also: what's the statutory timeline for that?) for the land.

We often use the phrase "playing with a sense of urgency" when talking about a team down a goal or two late in a game. Am I the only one who thinks the current ownership of the Coyotes isn't really showing a sense of urgency on this file?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Agreeing with @AtlantaWhaler here, as long as there is a Tampa Bay Lightning, I cannot ever imagine a NHL team in Orlando.

So Orlando to Tampa Bay is kind of just at the edge of what is acceptable. I think it's 50 miles corporate limit to corporate limit.

That being said the league wouldn't force it over Tampa's objections.

But would Tampa object? Depends on how many people they think travel from Orlando to Tampa for games. If it's miniscule maybe they see it as a good opportunity to develop a regional rival (although the Panthers already are that).

Orlando would be a bit like Vegas in that a lot of people travel there in winter from northern locations.

 

[TheLegend]

Okay, but what regulatory hurdles would this have to clear before they could start building? Are there zoning changes required? Environmental assessments? Something else?

This line also caught my eye



Does anyone think that's a realistic timeline? Designing and building an arena in two years is ambitious. Factor in the fact that there is currently no location for it and if this is the path forward, then there still needs to be a public auction (also: what's the statutory timeline for that?) for the land.

We often use the phrase "playing with a sense of urgency" when talking about a team down a goal or two late in a game. Am I the only one who thinks the current ownership of the Coyotes isn't really showing a sense of urgency on this file?

The lease at Mullett is open ended beyond 2025.... at ASU 's descretion. The ABOR gave them the okay to keep extending it if they wanted.

The Coyotes bring well over seven figures to ASU's economy and the $25-30 million annex becomes theirs upon exit. It would take something that violates the "morality clause" within that lease for them to not renew it if the Coyotes asked.

Edit: Also.... they are going to use the same building plans they had for TED. Just the layout would be different so the design time wouldn't play that much into it.

 

[TheLegend]

Funny, they gave incentives to the Suns.

The whole article feels like council members in Phoenix are playing dumb with this.

Phoenix residents are even more sensitive to "tax incentives" than Tempe residents are. They knew that going in with the Suns renovations for Footprint and then found a way around the public.

Can't see that happening again here though.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

The whole article feels like council members in Phoenix are playing dumb with this.

Phoenix residents are even more sensitive to "tax incentives" than Tempe residents are. They knew that going in with the Suns renovations for Footprint and then found a way around the public.

Can't see that happening again here though.

My opinion, playing dumb may have run it's course. I believe the Suns' Reno's were very much " hush hush".. They still happened.
This may be a bigger hurdle. I don't know...

 

[TheLegend]

My opinion, playing dumb may have run it's course. I believe the Suns' Reno's were very much " hush hush".. They still happened.
This may be a bigger hurdle. I don't know...

Well it's the opposite of what Tempe officials did and we all saw how that turned out. Still too early in the game here though. What you didn't see was a hard "no" from anyone.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Okay, but what regulatory hurdles would this have to clear before they could start building? Are there zoning changes required? Environmental assessments? Something else?

This line also caught my eye



Does anyone think that's a realistic timeline? Designing and building an arena in two years is ambitious. Factor in the fact that there is currently no location for it and if this is the path forward, then there still needs to be a public auction (also: what's the statutory timeline for that?) for the land.

We often use the phrase "playing with a sense of urgency" when talking about a team down a goal or two late in a game. Am I the only one who thinks the current ownership of the Coyotes isn't really showing a sense of urgency on this file?

As I understand it the advantage to building on formerly state land is there would be far less regulatory hurdles. Not none, but much fewer.

It's at this point a lot closer to 3 years than to 2. They want to be ready to go for September 2026. And they could always play the preseason games, and maybe even the first part of the 2026-2027 season at Mullett - ASU seems to have no issues with the Coyotes playing there.

So yes, it's still do-able. It seems like 2 years is a valid timeline for actual construction, in particular if they can largely re-use the TED plans.

But yes - they don't have any extra time here.