CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Coyotedroppings]

Meanwhile:

I've got incredible news boys! Because of a BoH poster's accusations yesterday, I contacted the asshat's (Coyote ownership) and told them I had a sure fire slogan and would like to become their mouthpiece should they like it and they accepted. It will be featured in a commercial, come the new year, complete with some awesome Yote highlights. What is this slogan you ask?
"Grow a Pair and Assimilate!"

IDK, seemed some levity was in order.

 

[PainForShane]

I've got incredible news boys! Because of a BoH poster's accusations yesterday, I contacted the asshat's (Coyote ownership) and told them I had a sure fire slogan and would like to become their mouthpiece should they like it and they accepted. It will be featured in a commercial, come the new year, complete with some awesome Yote highlights. What is this slogan you ask?
"Grow a Pair and Assimilate!"

IDK, seemed some levity was in order.

You came too late -- only a few short weeks ago we were discussing Helium

 

[OG6ix]

This place looks further than Glendale...

 

[PainForShane]

This place looks further than Glendale...

It's not. Learn how to read a map

 

[TheLegend]

Local ABC affiliate says the target is state land.

North Phoenix site reportedly targeted as potential new home for Arizona Coyotes

The Arizona Coyotes' hunt for a new arena may be getting closer to a solution.

www.abc15.com

EDIT: …or not after going over it again. If it ended up they play cow pasture bingo to select the parcel I wouldn’t be surprised at this point.

 

[Skidooboy]

Keep projecting… you periodically come in with the same “it’s not a hockey market” rhetoric and that’s about it.

Digging up 50 years worth of shade really doesn’t mean squat when you look at it the context the population of Phoenix Metro 50 years ago was 1/6th that it is now.

Nor take in the fact that the NHL came to Arizona as a last minute plan B because they couldn’t get back into Minnesota.

There’s never ever been a full on concise plan to make it work here. Even Steve Ellman bought the franchise as a means for something else (which ended up being Westgate). But he was playing the OPM game and the 2008 recession caved him in.

Everything else inbetween Ellman up to before Alex Meruelo has been a band aid effort… at best.

Now the Coyotes are finally owned by someone with a 40-year record of turning failing businesses around. With a ZERO failure rate. Whether he can pull this franchise out from the massive hole it’s dug itself before he bought it remains to be seen.

that whole argument falls on it's face.
I could care less about the owners record. it doesn't have any pro sports ownership on it, it certainly doesn't have pro hockey on it..... You can be an amazing plumber but that doesn't mean you understand IT infrastructure does it?

You put a bandaid on because you are bleeding and want it to stop.....AZ as a hockey market has already bled through multiple bandaids and shows no sign of stopping now.

And who cares about demographics and city history? you don't think QC has changed? or Winnipeg? or Calgary? or Minnesota? any of the "small market" teams that would KILL to have a population base as big as AZ has to draw on?

as for the rest? this isn't 1996, it's not 1970, it's not even 2010. you've had almost 30 YEARS of NHL hockey. It's today, and Tempe didn't want the team..... and Glendale didn't want the team, and the Footprint Centre didn't want them......it's not some new baby bird...it's long enough to have formed a multigenerational passionate fan base. but it hasn't happened.

what "Plan" does the market need to work? What Plan could even stand a remotely possible chance of working? If 50 years of hockey at pretty much every pro level including 27+ years of NHL hockey, (some of them with pretty darn good teams TBH,) isn't enough to convince the citizens of AZ that hockey is awesome....what possible "plan' could...?

you keep "wahtabouting" and talking about other markets other teams....but the point is, were not talking about other markets.... we aren't talking about other teams, or owners.

We are talking about AZ. We are talking about the repeated multiple failures of the market...a failure so bad the LEAGUE itself took control of the team....a wholly unique event in the NHL if not pro sports....a market where the LEAGUE itself was propping up conmen and liars in hopes of somehow finding an owner,
what possible plan is going to suddenly make AZ a viable hockey market.

And I get it ...there are hockey fans there....by the response I saw to the "Save the Yotes " rally back in the Glendale days there were probably a few thousand real fans in the market, and I feel sad for them....but it's not enough to make it a success .... and keeping the team in place with all the negative response, and liars, and conmen, and bush league arena..? it makes the whole league look bad.

 

[Yukon Joe]

We are talking about AZ. We are talking about the repeated multiple failures of the market...a failure so bad the LEAGUE itself took control of the team....a wholly unique event in the NHL if not pro sports....a market where the LEAGUE itself was propping up conmen and liars in hopes of somehow finding an owner,
what possible plan is going to suddenly make AZ a viable hockey market.

1983, St Louis. The current owners Ralston Purina wanted out of hockey to focus on dog food, so they sold the team to Bill Hunter with the intention the team would move to Saskatoon. When the NHL Board of Governors refused to allow the move Ralston Purina handed the team over to the NHL. Amongst other things this led to St Louis not participating in the 1983 draft.

The NHL assumed control over the franchise and ultimately sold it to new ownership a couple of months later.

The NHL assumed control over the Buffalo Sabres in 2002-2003 after owner John Rigas was indicted for bank fraud until new ownership could be found.

I had thought the Islanders came under NHL control during the attempted purchase by John Spano, but it looks like the team reverted to the prior owner. But anyways, it was another example of the league propping up conmen and liars.

And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

You came too late -- only a few short weeks ago we were discussing Helium

Those were lofty times

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Panthers aren't going anywhere, what are you talking about?

another clueless drive by. that happens in here often.

 

[Skidooboy]

1983, St Louis. The current owners Ralston Purina wanted out of hockey to focus on dog food, so they sold the team to Bill Hunter with the intention the team would move to Saskatoon. When the NHL Board of Governors refused to allow the move Ralston Purina handed the team over to the NHL. Amongst other things this led to St Louis not participating in the 1983 draft.

The NHL assumed control over the franchise and ultimately sold it to new ownership a couple of months later.

The NHL assumed control over the Buffalo Sabres in 2002-2003 after owner John Rigas was indicted for bank fraud until new ownership could be found.

I had thought the Islanders came under NHL control during the attempted purchase by John Spano, but it looks like the team reverted to the prior owner. But anyways, it was another example of the league propping up conmen and liars.

And that's just off the top of my head.

dammit... I could possibly argue the differences between those instances and the 'Yotes...most importantly that I'm pretty sure those instances weren't for multiple seasons.....

but...none of that makes AZ a viable hockey market...which is was and will probably always be my point.

 

[MeHateHe]

1983, St Louis. The current owners Ralston Purina wanted out of hockey to focus on dog food, so they sold the team to Bill Hunter with the intention the team would move to Saskatoon. When the NHL Board of Governors refused to allow the move Ralston Purina handed the team over to the NHL. Amongst other things this led to St Louis not participating in the 1983 draft.

The NHL assumed control over the franchise and ultimately sold it to new ownership a couple of months later.

The NHL assumed control over the Buffalo Sabres in 2002-2003 after owner John Rigas was indicted for bank fraud until new ownership could be found.

I had thought the Islanders came under NHL control during the attempted purchase by John Spano, but it looks like the team reverted to the prior owner. But anyways, it was another example of the league propping up conmen and liars.

And that's just off the top of my head.

These are all fine examples, but has there been an example in North American pro sports where a team's future in a community was unstable for as long as the Coyotes saga has gone on? I won't get into the whyfors - ownership, on-ice futility, market viability, who knows, and all of that is interwoven in all of these threads - but this has been a topic of conversation for, what, 15 years or more? (I did a search to find old threads: Thread number XII started in 2010.)

I remember the Expos-moving-to-somewhere was a story for about five years, but is there another example of a team's viability being in question for that long without a relocation?

 

[aqib]

1983, St Louis. The current owners Ralston Purina wanted out of hockey to focus on dog food, so they sold the team to Bill Hunter with the intention the team would move to Saskatoon. When the NHL Board of Governors refused to allow the move Ralston Purina handed the team over to the NHL. Amongst other things this led to St Louis not participating in the 1983 draft.

The NHL assumed control over the franchise and ultimately sold it to new ownership a couple of months later.

The NHL assumed control over the Buffalo Sabres in 2002-2003 after owner John Rigas was indicted for bank fraud until new ownership could be found.

I had thought the Islanders came under NHL control during the attempted purchase by John Spano, but it looks like the team reverted to the prior owner. But anyways, it was another example of the league propping up conmen and liars.

And that's just off the top of my head.

The Sabres had a relatively new arena (like the Coyotes did when they first went into bankruptcy). But more importantly a passionate fan base and they were sold to a billionaire. After he decided to move on they were sold to another billionaire. It's really only the Coyotes that have had this run of charlatans.
The Islanders were propped up by a big TV contract until they were able to get their arena squared away. But even they had wealthy guys buying them (Gluckstern/Millstein, Wang, and their current guys).
I was too young to follow the Blues situation but from what I read a lot of it had to do with Saskatoon being too small.

 

[Yukon Joe]

These are all fine examples, but has there been an example in North American pro sports where a team's future in a community was unstable for as long as the Coyotes saga has gone on? I won't get into the whyfors - ownership, on-ice futility, market viability, who knows, and all of that is interwoven in all of these threads - but this has been a topic of conversation for, what, 15 years or more? (I did a search to find old threads: Thread number XII started in 2010.)

I remember the Expos-moving-to-somewhere was a story for about five years, but is there another example of a team's viability being in question for that long without a relocation?

Oh and the Coyotes instability is definitely older than 2010 - they were being funded by the NHL since 2008, and went into bankruptcy in 2009.

but for team instability I'm going to say the Islanders. "Sold" to known fraudster in 1996. Then efforts to build a new arena for decades or more. Then moving to Brooklyn, which failed, then moving back to Veterans Collisseum before finally getting a new arena in 2021. That was almost 25 years of instability.

 

[aqib]

Oh and the Coyotes instability is definitely older than 2010 - they were being funded by the NHL since 2008, and went into bankruptcy in 2009.

but for team instability I'm going to say the Islanders. "Sold" to known fraudster in 1996. Then efforts to build a new arena for decades or more. Then moving to Brooklyn, which failed, then moving back to Veterans Collisseum before finally getting a new arena in 2021. That was almost 25 years of instability.

Yeah but they were never leaving the NY area. If not for the 08 recession they might have been in Brooklyn permanently as the arena was originally designed to be a true two-sport arena. There was even a proposal for what became CitiField to have a retractable dome that would have accommodated hockey and basketball (they wanted to get the Nets too).

 

[Yukon Joe]

The Sabres had a relatively new arena (like the Coyotes did when they first went into bankruptcy). But more importantly a passionate fan base and they were sold to a billionaire. After he decided to move on they were sold to another billionaire. It's really only the Coyotes that have had this run of charlatans.
The Islanders were propped up by a big TV contract until they were able to get their arena squared away. But even they had wealthy guys buying them (Gluckstern/Millstein, Wang, and their current guys).
I was too young to follow the Blues situation but from what I read a lot of it had to do with Saskatoon being too small.

So obviously every example is different. I just saw the 'it's unprecedented for the league to run a team' when I knew that wasn't true.

I pointed out the Islanders were kind of a mess for 20-25 years due to the arena situation.

The Blues - so I was a little kid in Saskatoon in 1983, so I remember the "Saskatoon has got the Blues!" slogan, and have looked it up since then. I mean yes - the league refused to allow "Wild" Bill Hunter to buy and move the team because Saskatoon was too small (and Hunter was quite a character, despite him being earlier involved with the Oilers).

But really it had to do with Ralston Purina. They bought the team back in the late 70s as an act of civic support for St. Louis, under the understanding someone else would buy them shortly. Come 1983 (and after losing millions) they'd had enough. They sold to the first willing buyer (Hunter), but when the league kiboshed that they just handed the keys back to the NHL and said "we're done".

 

[MeHateHe]

Yeah but they were never leaving the NY area. If not for the 08 recession they might have been in Brooklyn permanently as the arena was originally designed to be a true two-sport arena. There was even a proposal for what became CitiField to have a retractable dome that would have accommodated hockey and basketball (they wanted to get the Nets too).

I'm with you here. The Islanders were a mess, from Mike Milbury to the Fishsticks logo to the strange foray into Brooklyn. but they were never moving-to-Milwaukee (or wherever) messy.

 

[PainForShane]

dammit... I could possibly argue the differences between those instances and the 'Yotes...most importantly that I'm pretty sure those instances weren't for multiple seasons.....

but...none of that makes AZ a viable hockey market...which is was and will probably always be my point.

That's your problem. According to ppl like you AZ isn't viable, and that will "probably always be your point." Even after we show we're fine after the new arena. Your stubborn hatred is not my or anyone else's problem, there will always be haters.

For anyone else who might be reading this, Phoenix is like any other market however we also have a lot of transplants and a higher percentage of casual fans. So, in order for any team to succeed here, whether it's baseball or basketball or whatever, the team needs to be good and the arena location also needs to not be terrible, which it inarguably was for decades in Glendale.

If the Yotes get a decently located arena (Desert Ridge is good enough if we get there) and if the on-ice rebuild continues the way it has so we eventually become a perennial playoff team with potential upside every year (likely imo), the franchise will be more than fine in the medium to long term until the team bottoms out, we'll have attendance problems then too until the team gets good again. Just like most other franchises in this or any other league.

As for past failures, everyone knows we've never had a good team on the ice and also a good arena at the same time, it's never happened before in this market. Changing both of those is the plan to make NHL hockey succeed in Arizona. It's not that complicated

 

[Tawnos]

I'm with you here. The Islanders were a mess, from Mike Milbury to the Fishsticks logo to the strange foray into Brooklyn. but they were never moving-to-Milwaukee (or wherever) messy.

Sure they were. Wang did threaten to move them to KC at one point for sure. My brain is telling me there were others, but that’s the one I definitely remember

 

[GindyDraws]

I'm surprised they didn't rename the Blues the Chuck Wagons.

 

[aqib]

Sure they were. Wang did threaten to move them to KC at one point for sure. My brain is telling me there were others, but that’s the one I definitely remember

They had an exhibition game there. They were never moving. The TV deal keeps them there.

 

[hammer42]

If Mesa is smart like Tempe , Glendale heck the whole state of Arizona & say NO to building there white elephant of arena because if they do in less than 10 years down the road they will be in the same spot playing in half empty arena & broke please Mesa do us all a favor & say no then tell them don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out to Houston .

 

[Llama19]

Tempe mayor talks progress, unity and makes big promises for 2024 in state of city speech

To quote:

"And [Corey] Woods didn't shy away from what was perhaps 2023's most heated and divisive issue for Tempe: the failed Arizona Coyotes election, which was unanimously supported by officials but resoundingly rejected by voters in May.

"It's no secret that I voted for the proposed (Coyotes project). We negotiated a deal that I genuinely believed would be a win for our community," Woods said. "Tempe voters ― our ultimate bosses ― disagreed. (And) while I personally had hoped for a different outcome, I have and always will accept the will of voters.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/12/09/corey-woods-tempe-mayor-embraces-future-reflects-on-turbulent-year/71853242007/

 

[TheLegend]

that whole argument falls on it's face.
I could care less about the owners record. it doesn't have any pro sports ownership on it, it certainly doesn't have pro hockey on it..... You can be an amazing plumber but that doesn't mean you understand IT infrastructure does it?

That's just it.... you don't care about anything that disrupts your narrative.

You put a bandaid on because you are bleeding and want it to stop.....AZ as a hockey market has already bled through multiple bandaids and shows no sign of stopping now.

And who cares about demographics and city history? you don't think QC has changed? or Winnipeg? or Calgary? or Minnesota? any of the "small market" teams that would KILL to have a population base as big as AZ has to draw on?

Who's the one who brought up 50 years of history as the reason why Arizona is a failed market.

as for the rest? this isn't 1996, it's not 1970, it's not even 2010. you've had almost 30 YEARS of NHL hockey. It's today, and Tempe didn't want the team..... and Glendale didn't want the team, and the Footprint Centre didn't want them......it's not some new baby bird...it's long enough to have formed a multigenerational passionate fan base. but it hasn't happened.

what "Plan" does the market need to work? What Plan could even stand a remotely possible chance of working? If 50 years of hockey at pretty much every pro level including 27+ years of NHL hockey, (some of them with pretty darn good teams TBH,) isn't enough to convince the citizens of AZ that hockey is awesome....what possible "plan' could...?

you keep "wahtabouting" and talking about other markets other teams....but the point is, were not talking about other markets.... we aren't talking about other teams, or owners.

This is about running a business in a market. Those weren't "whataboutisms" those are an example of what flies right in the face of what people like you keep blathering on about in regards to Arizona.

We are talking about AZ. We are talking about the repeated multiple failures of the market...a failure so bad the LEAGUE itself took control of the team....a wholly unique event in the NHL if not pro sports....a market where the LEAGUE itself was propping up conmen and liars in hopes of somehow finding an owner,
what possible plan is going to suddenly make AZ a viable hockey market.

And I get it ...there are hockey fans there....by the response I saw to the "Save the Yotes " rally back in the Glendale days there were probably a few thousand real fans in the market, and I feel sad for them....but it's not enough to make it a success .... and keeping the team in place with all the negative response, and liars, and conmen, and bush league arena..? it makes the whole league look bad.

Again you bring up history..... up above you said it didn't matter. Now it suddenly matters?

Good grief......

In the end it doesn't mean squat what you.... or even I think about it. There's a self made billionaire who's investing a lot of time and his own money trying to resurrect what has historically been a poorly run franchise in a market THAT HE WANTS TO BE IN.

And at this point I don't have the slightest idea if he's going to be able to pull it off. But I am waiting to see what Alex Meruelo comes up with.

 

[TheLegend]

Tempe mayor talks progress, unity and makes big promises for 2024 in state of city speech

To quote:

"And [Corey] Woods didn't shy away from what was perhaps 2023's most heated and divisive issue for Tempe: the failed Arizona Coyotes election, which was unanimously supported by officials but resoundingly rejected by voters in May.

"It's no secret that I voted for the proposed (Coyotes project). We negotiated a deal that I genuinely believed would be a win for our community," Woods said. "Tempe voters ― our ultimate bosses ― disagreed. (And) while I personally had hoped for a different outcome, I have and always will accept the will of voters.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/12/09/corey-woods-tempe-mayor-embraces-future-reflects-on-turbulent-year/71853242007/

Tempe is pretty much irrevlevant at this point, Llama. That includes any council members looking to run for a different office as you posted about earlier.

But.... since you bring it up..... I noted in this article that there was lots of talk about improving housing.... streets.... etc etc...... and absolutey ZERO mention of the landfill that is still facing $120-150 million worth of remediation.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You came too late -- only a few short weeks ago we were discussing Helium

Sounds uplifting