CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Skidooboy]

"Although CNBC ranks the state last, the U.S. Census Bureau reports that Arizona is one of the fastest-growing states in the country, placing third in numeric growth in 2020."

Arizona is "the worst place to live in the USA", yet it's the third fasting-growing state in the country????

CNBC. That about says it all for journalistic credibility.

if AZ is the worst then the best must be like some kind of Xanadu place, because this isnt the worst place to live or be, regardless of what yardstick you apply.

top 10 in crime
Bottom 1/2 in education
top 1/2 in poverty rate
bottom third for unemployment
2nd most air pollution in the US.....

yep...almost impossible to beat those numbers.. solid bottom half in almost every category that matters....what a hidden jewel.....

 

[brentashton]

The one thing the league is going to protect above everything else is franchise valuations.

The way valuation is calculated is very simple - you look at what other similar things have sold for and draw comparisons. That's why after Steve Ballmer bought the LA Clippers for an unheard of $2 billion it wound up raising the value of all NBA franchises.

So the thing is - if Fertitta is able to buy the Coyotes at a rock-bottom price that will in turn decrease the value of all NHL franchises.

If the Coyotes wind up moving, the buyer is going to be spending somewhere around $1 billion dollars. It will be a combination of cash and assuming debt (pretty sure the Coyotes have a lot of that), and it may be a combination of a purchase price plus a relocation fee, but franchise valuation must be preserved at all costs.

excellent points Yukon.

 

[brentashton]

top 10 in crime
Bottom 1/2 in education
top 1/2 in poverty rate
bottom third for unemployment
2nd most air pollution in the US.....

yep...almost impossible to beat those numbers.. solid bottom half in almost every category that matters....what a hidden jewel.....

geography and lack of political leadership is causing most of this. That’s all I will say in order to keep this thread about Phoenix and Arizona as a hockey market.
Moving on…

 

[Skidooboy]

What the hell?

You brought up a WHA team. That entire league failed, along with the vast majority of its teams, before the merger took place. Teams like the Philadelphia Blazers which became the Vancouver Blazers and then the Calgary Cowboys failed in each location, clearly that doesn't mean the markets were bad. Toronto and NYC and Chicago had WHA teams, they all failed too.

This might be the dumbest argument this thread has ever seen, and here you are going out of your way to repeat yourself and continue pretending / defending the underlying assumption that a failed WHA team is somehow a functional barometer of market interest in hockey 50 years later.

If you actually believe this, please tell all the fans of the Leafs / Rangers / Canucks / Blackhawks etc that you believe their markets don't support hockey because their WHA teams folded 50 years ago. Please let us know how that conversation goes thanks

lol yes after The Toronto WHA team folded.the only hockey team in the province it must have been too.... hockey disappeared in ontario...never to be seen again.

it's not like any of the WHA teams were profitable...oh wait some were....?

I mean you get the WHA was basically absorbed by the NHL because they saw the league as competition and began a plan to absorb the league from day 1......and they eliminated WHA teams in existing NHL cities and only kept the PROFITABLE teams in the merger right....where was Arizona? oh already broke, with no fans, & no ticket sales,

My point stands. the fans in AZ have not supported pro hockey in any financially viable way ...ever.

You can't have it both ways.... The actual number for pro hockey is 49 years, the RR's were not televised, merchandise was not an issue and our tv views are not sub par.
But basically yes, you proved my point that an entertainment district is necessary, I never claimed that this valley chock full of bandwagon jumping, route for the teams from the cities they used to live in, nutless puking excuses for sports fans was ever sustainable for the franchise, nor did I ever claim it currently is such. Thing is, some people have vision and with the massive population, only increasing and kids that will be assimilating to their home team (where their parents refused), it will be sustainable given time..... yes, more than 27 years.


You should try not to think Llama, good Lord it must be depressing inside your skull, when you do.

I can have it both ways....because my point stands. AZ has never once been a profitable hockey market. in the last 50 years..ok 49, and if your best defence is that i said 50 years when the number was 49...i think you already know you are grasping at straws.

 

[hammer42]

I wish the NHL. will just let the Coyotes to be sold & moved to Houston because there is one other team in the NHL. that is in trouble of relocating & that team is the Florida Panthers because they play in one of the worst arenas in league not to mention it is aging & is in sunrise which is in the middle of nowhere Florida & they can be saved with new arena closer to Miami or relocated within state like to Orlando for example but if the NHL. dose not address this soon both the panthers & coyotes will be relocated..

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Panthers aren't going anywhere, what are you talking about?

 

[TheLegend]

I do not think it is the valley...more like the politicians...

That's a part of it. Even if it's a VERY small one.

 

[TheLegend]

I believe the AZ betting license was a factor for Meruelo, but not as critical as many might assume.

Saharabets is a minor sportsbook player. AM should have been able to get more short term money partnering the Coyotes AZ gambling license with a bigger Sportsbook—like most AZ license owners did. Vs using his own fledgling brand Sportsbook.

I‘m not predicting where Saharabets will eventually end up. IMO, AM is taking the longer term approach to grow Saharabets, similar to long term strategy he’s employed in other businesses he owns.

Can't recall which article had it but it was explained that Meruelo decided to go his own on the sports betting because he wanted more control of it and that fits with everything he's done to date.

EDIT: Not the article I read about it but it has the same info.

Indy Gaming: Meruelo launches SaharaBets in Arizona. What about Nevada? - The Nevada Independent

Meruelo Gaming, which owns the Sahara and Grand Sierra, is launching SaharaBets, a digital sports wagering company in Arizona in partnership with the NHL's Arizona Coyotes. More in this week's Indy Gaming.

thenevadaindependent.com

However, Merulo Gaming Senior Vice President Andrew Diss, who spent time last year in the state when the Legislature was debating its sports betting law, said the company’s launch isn’t late in the game.

While the competition between sports betting operators to sign up customers has been fierce, Diss suggested some of the companies are starting to pull back on large promotional costs that were initially being spent in the state. He said Meruelo Gaming’s approach will be focused on Arizona’s Hispanic market.

“This was by design,” Diss said of Meruelo launching his company’s own sports betting product. “We got a lot of offers from the big guys, but Alex wanted to go out on his own and start his own operation.”

Krafcik expects “a strategic focus of SaharaBets will be to drive visitation” from Arizona residents to the Sahara in Las Vegas.

 

[TheLegend]

CNBC. That about says it all for journalistic credibility.

if AZ is the worst then the best must be like some kind of Xanadu place, because this isnt the worst place to live or be, regardless of what yardstick you apply.

For being the worst place to live they're having a problem building enough housing for all the people moving in.

 

[TheLegend]

lol yes after The Toronto WHA team folded.the only hockey team in the province it must have been too.... hockey disappeared in ontario...never to be seen again.

it's not like any of the WHA teams were profitable...oh wait some were....?

I mean you get the WHA was basically absorbed by the NHL because they saw the league as competition and began a plan to absorb the league from day 1......and they eliminated WHA teams in existing NHL cities and only kept the PROFITABLE teams in the merger right....where was Arizona? oh already broke, with no fans, & no ticket sales,

My point stands. the fans in AZ have not supported pro hockey in any financially viable way ...ever.


I can have it both ways....because my point stands. AZ has never once been a profitable hockey market. in the last 50 years..ok 49, and if your best defence is that i said 50 years when the number was 49...i think you already know you are grasping at straws.

Hockey teams come and go.

Montreal had three at one time IIRC....

You really have no point other than coming up with random historic Googles to throw shade at things.

Even then it doesn't really mean squat because for his own reasons, Alex Meruelo wants to own a team in Arizona.... period. If he can't get done after this then the odds are leaning very strongly that he will look at another market.

But until then, this is all a big food fight.

 

[aqib]

The one thing the league is going to protect above everything else is franchise valuations.

The way valuation is calculated is very simple - you look at what other similar things have sold for and draw comparisons. That's why after Steve Ballmer bought the LA Clippers for an unheard of $2 billion it wound up raising the value of all NBA franchises.

So the thing is - if Fertitta is able to buy the Coyotes at a rock-bottom price that will in turn decrease the value of all NHL franchises.

If the Coyotes wind up moving, the buyer is going to be spending somewhere around $1 billion dollars. It will be a combination of cash and assuming debt (pretty sure the Coyotes have a lot of that), and it may be a combination of a purchase price plus a relocation fee, but franchise valuation must be preserved at all costs.

Not to nitpick but the Hawks sold for $730 million a year after the Clippers sold for $2 billion. The Jazz sold for $1.7 billion in 2021 even though there were two other sales over $2 billion. Most recently the Hornets sold for $3 billon after the Suns sold for $4 billion.
In MLB the Rangers sold for less than the Cubs. The Dodgers sold for $2 billion in 2012 the next same was the Marlins in 2018 for $1.3 billion. Then you had the Royals who sold for $1 billion in 2020 after the Mets had sold for $2.4 billion earlier in the year.
Unlike the NFL which has a lot more pooled revenues you are going to see bigger fluctuations from deal to deal.

 

[JimAnchower]

Not sure what it means, but it is the Coyotes verified account.

New addition to the family of former U of Az basketball player Gilbert Arenas?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

OK, I typed a long-winded response to this that didn't make it (boring formatting concerns) but I'll tidy it up here with:

Since when is the sports team you pick an act of courage? Or I guess put another way: Not rooting for another team an act of cowardice?

You act like you're entitled to every hockey fan that lives in your city going to your favourite team's game like some sort of tax. Which, by the way, is a helluva way to try to sell someone on your favourite team...

LOL, the only thing you're right about is "root." You in turn f***ed up on "favourite," which only serves to show your origin and thus lack of understanding.
You're taking my statement's bravado far too literally. I'm not entitled to anything, the game is.
How will the nutless, puking excuses watch their hero's, if no one ever assimilates and their new home's team leaves their new community? What good does their old team do for their new community? It will do nothing, should their old team no longer come here twice a regular season. Their presence annoys the die hard sth and the casual fan alike, many don't return, even those that have been sth's for years. Personally, I enjoy seeing them leave after having lost it's akin to having a team in the desert that so many canadians feel entitled to.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I can have it both ways....because my point stands. AZ has never once been a profitable hockey market. in the last 50 years..ok 49, and if your best defence is that i said 50 years when the number was 49...i think you already know you are grasping at straws.

I don't grasp, I deal with reality. Do you have an NHL team playing 20 minutes from your home?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

But until then, this is all a big food fight.

And the naysayers keep losing. Who knows, perhaps they will rally in the end, but for now I sure enjoy watching the NHL in my backyard!

 

[Yukon Joe]

Not to nitpick but the Hawks sold for $730 million a year after the Clippers sold for $2 billion. The Jazz sold for $1.7 billion in 2021 even though there were two other sales over $2 billion. Most recently the Hornets sold for $3 billon after the Suns sold for $4 billion.
In MLB the Rangers sold for less than the Cubs. The Dodgers sold for $2 billion in 2012 the next same was the Marlins in 2018 for $1.3 billion. Then you had the Royals who sold for $1 billion in 2020 after the Mets had sold for $2.4 billion earlier in the year.
Unlike the NFL which has a lot more pooled revenues you are going to see bigger fluctuations from deal to deal.

I mean of course. But the idea is the same whether you're valueing sports franchises or residential real estate. You look at the comparables.

Of course the Royals are going to be worth less than the Mets - they're in a much smaller media market and the brand/merchandising is worth less. If you're looking at houses the house in a nicer neighbourhood is going to be worth more then one in a sketchier neighbourhood, even if they're the same age and floorplan.

But still they are comparable. If the Coyotes were suddenly sold for $200 mil it would make the Seattle ownership group look like Chumps. Same thing for the Ottawa owners. It would hurt the valuation of all NHL teams.

 

[BMN]

Even then it doesn't really mean squat because for his own reasons, Alex Meruelo wants to own a team in Arizona.... period.

This is the part that always amuses me on and off of the HFBoards. Like......do people think Gary Bettman just calls owners and says "y'know, you own this team and are trying to make it work, but I don't like the NHL in Arizona any more so I'm forcing you to move!" Like........it so doesn't work that way.

LOL, the only thing you're right about is "root." You in turn f***ed up on "favourite," which only serves to show your origin and thus lack of understanding.
You're taking my statement's bravado far too literally. I'm not entitled to anything, the game is.
How will the nutless, puking excuses watch their hero's, if no one ever assimilates and their new home's team leaves their new community? What good does their old team do for their new community? It will do nothing, should their old team no longer come here twice a regular season. Their presence annoys the die hard sth and the casual fan alike, many don't return, even those that have been sth's for years. Personally, I enjoy seeing them leave after having lost it's akin to having a team in the desert that so many canadians feel entitled to.

1-- I didn't f*** up anything spelling "favourite." I'm a Canadian who's lived in the States for 20+ years and am in no way trying to obscure this fact.
2-- I am taking it a little literally because it strikes me as.....silly. Like...you seem to think these people are dying to be Coyotes fans but don't have the courage to. It's hilarious.
3-- Who says they want to watch their heroes in person? Why are you speaking for them?
4-- "What good does their old team do for their new community?" My man, this is pro sports. These people make six or seven figures. A lot of organizations that you (and 100% disclosure, also me) do not lift a finger to help do more for a community than a pro sports team. Let's not get dramatic. How many literary readings do you go to to support your arts community? How many fundraisers do you go to to support assorted charities in your area? etc. etc. (And this isn't me trying to guilt you about it but quite the opposite, I don't correlate any of it to courage etc. because that's ridiculous).
5-- But to your "What good..." question as it relates to this: THIS IS HOW PRO SPORTS FANS ARE EVERYWHERE IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE AND IT ISN'T EVER GOING TO CHANGE. Yelling at them for being "nutless pukes" doesn't make the Arizona Coyotes cool or fun to support. It makes it look like a poverty franchise with an old cranky windbag who's no fun to hang out with as its #1 fan.
6-- You sound like a crying blaming whiner when you talk about "fans of the other team" driving other potential fans away. The job of a good owner is to make their team (not just the sport, but the whole team and its brand) cool. Do you think Phoenix, AZ is the only market that has to deal with away fans? My dude, seriously, get your feet out there and "touch grass" to use the modern metaphor.
7-- Would you rather those "fans of the other team" not buy tickets at all? So rather than a half-empty building where half the fans are for the other team, you want a 75% empty building with *ONLY* fans of the home team?
8-- To reiterate points 5 & 6....... I would not want you as the Arizona Coyotes' mouthpiece. It wouldn't make the franchise an iota more popular.
9-- And for all your whining about "lack of understanding," it sounds like you don't want to understand your resident transplants. You want them to shut up, get in line with how you think and "assimilate." Way to try to win over their hearts and minds.

But you never had to (and I'm bolding "had to" for a reason) leave America for a job elsewhere. So you, my friend WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

This is the part that always amuses me on and off of the HFBoards. Like......do people think Gary Bettman just calls owners and says "y'know, you own this team and are trying to make it work, but I don't like the NHL in Arizona any more so I'm forcing you to move!" Like........it so doesn't work that way.

1-- I didn't f*** up anything spelling "favourite." I'm a Canadian who's lived in the States for 20+ years and am in no way trying to obscure this fact.
2-- I am taking it a little literally because it strikes me as.....silly. Like...you seem to think these people are dying to be Coyotes fans but don't have the courage to. It's hilarious.
3-- Who says they want to watch their heroes in person? Why are you speaking for them?
4-- "What good does their old team do for their new community?" My man, this is pro sports. These people make six or seven figures. A lot of organizations that you (and 100% disclosure, also me) do not lift a finger to help do more for a community than a pro sports team. Let's not get dramatic. How many literary readings do you go to to support your arts community? How many fundraisers do you go to to support assorted charities in your area? etc. etc. (And this isn't me trying to guilt you about it but quite the opposite, I don't correlate any of it to courage etc. because that's ridiculous).
5-- But to your "What good..." question as it relates to this: THIS IS HOW PRO SPORTS FANS ARE EVERYWHERE IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE AND IT ISN'T EVER GOING TO CHANGE. Yelling at them for being "nutless pukes" doesn't make the Arizona Coyotes cool or fun to support. It makes it look like a poverty franchise with an old cranky windbag who's no fun to hang out with as its #1 fan.
6-- You sound like a crying blaming whiner when you talk about "fans of the other team" driving other potential fans away. The job of a good owner is to make their team (not just the sport, but the whole team and its brand) cool. Do you think Phoenix, AZ is the only market that has to deal with away fans? My dude, seriously, get your feet out there and "touch grass" to use the modern metaphor.
7-- Would you rather those "fans of the other team" not buy tickets at all? So rather than a half-empty building where half the fans are for the other team, you want a 75% empty building with *ONLY* fans of the home team?
8-- To reiterate points 5 & 6....... I would not want you as the Arizona Coyotes' mouthpiece. It wouldn't make the franchise an iota more popular.
9-- And for all your whining about "lack of understanding," it sounds like you don't want to understand your resident transplants. You want them to shut up, get in line with how you think and "assimilate." Way to try to win over their hearts and minds.

But you never had to (and I'm bolding "had to" for a reason) leave America for a job elsewhere. So you, my friend WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND.

Oh mercy, you literally had me laughing out loud with this rant! Courage, crying, blaming, cool, modern metaphor, half empty, 3/4 empty, whining, leaving America..... you're cracking me up man!

Edit: Forgot mouthpiece

 

[BMN]

You're cracking me up man!

I live to entertain.

 

[PainForShane]

lol yes after The Toronto WHA team folded.the only hockey team in the province it must have been too.... hockey disappeared in ontario...never to be seen again.

it's not like any of the WHA teams were profitable...oh wait some were....?

I mean you get the WHA was basically absorbed by the NHL because they saw the league as competition and began a plan to absorb the league from day 1......and they eliminated WHA teams in existing NHL cities and only kept the PROFITABLE teams in the merger right....where was Arizona? oh already broke, with no fans, & no ticket sales,

My point stands. the fans in AZ have not supported pro hockey in any financially viable way ...ever.


I can have it both ways....because my point stands. AZ has never once been a profitable hockey market. in the last 50 years..ok 49, and if your best defence is that i said 50 years when the number was 49...i think you already know you are grasping at straws.

Bro, idk if you realize this but everything you've continued to say about Phx's failed WHA team has nothing to do with your point. Because most WHA teams failed including the ones in good markets. This idea is obvious to everyone but apparently it ended up being too difficult to understand.

Regardless, your point is irrelevant anyway. Repeating the idea that "AZ has never worked for hockey therefore it never will" is kind of like saying, "Connor Ingram has never been an above average NHL goalie therefore he never will be" we all see how that's working out.

In the past, we've never had a good team in a centrally located arena. Now, it looks like we'll be getting both of those here in the next few years, and all of us will see what happens in real time. My strong suspicion is that we will be fine, Phoenix is the 5th or 6th largest metro in the country, there are clearly enough people here to support a team assuming it's not run like a tire fire (the way it has been for most of its ~30 years of existence). smh

 

[LPHabsFan]

People know that there are now more questions than answers here right? All that's happened is information on a piece of land. Even when they announce it, it's really not going to mean anything as the questions that have existed for the past two decades won't be answered, and everything that came with TED (and Westgate) are going to come to the surface as well.

People here need to relax. Save the energy for when there's actual questions to be answered. Like who's going to pay for it, what type of timeline there is, what type of tax breaks they're going to try and hide so it can be "completely privately funded", will they have another referendum on the tax breaks, how much money are they going to continue to add to the hundreds of millions of dollars of debt already, or when are we going to find out that Meruelo doesn't actually care about the Coyotes and they've been a means to an end the entire time, and not whatever stupidity is going on here.

 

[TheLegend]

People know that there are now more questions than answers here right? All that's happened is information on a piece of land. Even when they announce it, it's really not going to mean anything as the questions that have existed for the past two decades won't be answered, and everything that came with TED (and Westgate) are going to come to the surface as well.

People here need to relax. Save the energy for when there's actual questions to be answered. Like who's going to pay for it, what type of timeline there is, what type of tax breaks they're going to try and hide so it can be "completely privately funded", will they have another referendum on the tax breaks, how much money are they going to continue to add to the hundreds of millions of dollars of debt already, or when are we going to find out that Meruelo doesn't actually care about the Coyotes and they've been a means to an end the entire time, and not whatever stupidity is going on here.

Taking on the original debt of, or paying $300 million for an NHL franchise. Then spending another $50-60 million to move to a temporary arena while developing a $2 billion plus ED. Plus eating losses outside of what the max revenue sharing can cover.

That's one hell of a loss leader you're descibing for something you wouldn't care about.

 

[hammer42]

Panthers aren't going anywhere, what are you talking about?

I said the Panthers need to get out sunrise & get a new arena closer to Miami or relocate within state like Orlando because the longer they stay in that arena in Sunrise which is one the worst in the League & it is getting old the harder it will to keep it in Florida.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I said the Panthers need to get out sunrise & get a new arena closer to Miami or relocate within state like Orlando because the longer they stay in that arena in Sunrise which is one the worst in the League & it is getting old the harder it will to keep it in Florida.

They receive a substantial subsidy from the county. They're not going anywhere.

 

[Tawnos]

People know that there are now more questions than answers here right? All that's happened is information on a piece of land. Even when they announce it, it's really not going to mean anything as the questions that have existed for the past two decades won't be answered, and everything that came with TED (and Westgate) are going to come to the surface as well.

People here need to relax. Save the energy for when there's actual questions to be answered. Like who's going to pay for it, what type of timeline there is, what type of tax breaks they're going to try and hide so it can be "completely privately funded", will they have another referendum on the tax breaks, how much money are they going to continue to add to the hundreds of millions of dollars of debt already, or when are we going to find out that Meruelo doesn't actually care about the Coyotes and they've been a means to an end the entire time, and not whatever stupidity is going on here.

Thanks for telling us. No one would have realized that the selection of a site is only one step in the process without your help.