CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Yukon Joe]

The problems with Westgate/Glendale stemmed from 1) mismanagement, 2) not owning the arena, and 3) having to deal with the Glendale council. If they can avoid those three things (and obviously #1 and #2 would be the thing here), then they shouldn't have the same issues as Westgate... just possible other issues.

So I have to disagree on multiple fronts.

1) I'm unaware of any particular mismanagement of the Coyotes under Jerry Moyes (or prior owner Steve Ellman). Instead I think the Coyotes just got steamrolled by the 2008 financial crises, which hit Arizona particularly hard.

2) Not owning the arena is usually seen as a benefit, not a problem. That way it's the city who is responsible for all of the upkeep and maintenance at the end of the lease. Plus at the end of the lease period you can then try to extract more concessions from local government in exchange for extending.

3) Glendale city council gave the Coyotes millions of dollars in "arena management fees" for years after the bankruptcy. Yes, they eventually grew tired of doing it, but Glendale city council was supportive of the Coyotes for many years.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

That's where it gets interesting.

I'm still fascinated by the overall timeline (starting here). I just can't imagine an arena can be completed, at this stage (square 1), in less than 4-5 years. Can the Yotes play in that arena that long (not contractually, but financially)??

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The problems with Westgate/Glendale stemmed from 1) mismanagement, 2) not owning the arena, and 3) having to deal with the Glendale council. If they can avoid those three things (and obviously #1 and #2 would be the thing here), then they shouldn't have the same issues as Westgate... just possible other issues.

Only problem with Westgate was the economy tanking and the subsequent sale of what would have been the teams entertainment district.
This entire thing is predicated on an entertainment district, won't work otherwise..... in a valley full of fair weather fans and fans that insist on routing for teams from where they came.

 

[Tawnos]

So I have to disagree on multiple fronts.

1) I'm unaware of any particular mismanagement of the Coyotes under Jerry Moyes (or prior owner Steve Ellman). Instead I think the Coyotes just got steamrolled by the 2008 financial crises, which hit Arizona particularly hard.

2) Not owning the arena is usually seen as a benefit, not a problem. That way it's the city who is responsible for all of the upkeep and maintenance at the end of the lease. Plus at the end of the lease period you can then try to extract more concessions from local government in exchange for extending.

3) Glendale city council gave the Coyotes millions of dollars in "arena management fees" for years after the bankruptcy. Yes, they eventually grew tired of doing it, but Glendale city council was supportive of the Coyotes for many years.

On number two, this is the opposite stance of almost everyone around the business of the sport, and most importantly, it's the opposite stance of the NHL. Whenever possible, they want the ownership of the team and the arena to be the same person/people. Paying rent is a far inferior situation to having control over all the aspects that come with owning the arena, from concessions to parking, etc etc.

On the rest, we don't need to re-hash any of that again.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I'm still fascinated by the overall timeline (starting here). I just can't imagine an arena can be completed, at this stage (square 1), in less than 4-5 years. Can the Yotes play in that arena that long (not contractually, but financially)??

They wouldn't have to, we gots the weather to bust out an arena in no time!

 

[Tawnos]

Only problem with Westgate was the economy tanking and the subsequent sale of what would have been the teams entertainment district.
This entire thing is predicated on an entertainment district, won't work otherwise..... in a valley full of fair weather fans, or fans that insist on routing for teams from where they came.

Most of the Coyotes problems did come after the economy tanking, but it doesn't excuse all of the things they did wrong after that. The economy recovered within a few years, but the Coyotes kept digging themselves deeper.

Regarding the entertainment district... this is the model in 2023 for pretty much all new arena ventures in every market. I agree they'll need it to prop them up while they rebuild/build the fanbase... but the concept isn't really about the Coyotes specifically.

If you want my thoughts on the market and fandom, you can find them elsewhere in this thread.

 

[Skidooboy]

This time it's real for real I'm 100% positive.
the announcement is just around the corner.

And then the Y'otes will magically sell out for 10 years straight. Book it 100%.
all those other announcements "coming in a month" and the history of conmen liars and Wannabe owners with Arena deals...that was all BS, but THIS TIME it's gonna happen...

And This time...unlike every other time in the last 50 years...the fans will show up and pay for Merch and tickets......and local business will support the team meaningfully, and the TV views won't be worst in the league

 

[Coyotedroppings]

If you want my thoughts on the market and fandom, you can find them elsewhere in this thread.

Don't need 'em, thanks. I live here, have been living the situation as a sth for decades, I have the facts.

This time it's real for real I'm 100% positive.
the announcement is just around the corner.

And then the Y'otes will magically sell out for 10 years straight. Book it 100%.
all those other announcements "coming in a month" and the history of conmen liars and Wannabe owners with Arena deals...that was all BS, but THIS TIME it's gonna happen...

And This time...unlike every other time in the last 50 years...the fans will show up and pay for Merch and tickets......and local business will support the team meaningfully, and the TV views won't be worst in the league

Fifty years eh?

 

[Skidooboy]

Don't need 'em, thanks. I live here, have been living the situation as a sth for decades, I have the facts.


Fifty years eh?

Phoenix Roadrunners (WHA) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[oldunclehue]

So I have to disagree on multiple fronts.

1) I'm unaware of any particular mismanagement of the Coyotes under Jerry Moyes (or prior owner Steve Ellman). Instead I think the Coyotes just got steamrolled by the 2008 financial crises, which hit Arizona particularly hard.

2) Not owning the arena is usually seen as a benefit, not a problem. That way it's the city who is responsible for all of the upkeep and maintenance at the end of the lease. Plus at the end of the lease period you can then try to extract more concessions from local government in exchange for extending.

3) Glendale city council gave the Coyotes millions of dollars in "arena management fees" for years after the bankruptcy. Yes, they eventually grew tired of doing it, but Glendale city council was supportive of the Coyotes for many years.

1) Mismanagement and weird rent scheme that had to do with parking lots etc etc. The Coyotes didn't see a dime from many things in the agreement which caused for the mismanagement of the asset known as the NHL team. The 2008 financial crisis hit hard but it did the same for multiple teams who all pulled through.

2. Not owning the arena is viewed as a HUGE issue in all of pro sports. Ownership is huge as it adds far more revenue streams than just NHL games, events, concerts, concessions, parking, sponsorship etc etc. Maintenance is built in to it but also funding can be sought through local governments for upgrades et al. Also tax breaks for owners not the ones renting.

3. Glendale Council wasn't "supportive" but moreso held hostage in the entire issue. They made the decision to spend on this arena and the surrounding area and had to keep throwing money at it so it didn't look like a complete and utter failure. I've been a few times and the area is ridiculous for a NHL team. NFL can do it as its one game a week for what 8 weeks? NHL has 41 nights a year in the middle of nowhere in hopes non-traditional fans want to go there.

 

[Skidooboy]

Don't need 'em, thanks. I live here, have been living the situation as a sth for decades, I have the facts.


Fifty years eh?

maybe you don't have all the facts?

 

[Yukon Joe]

2. Not owning the arena is viewed as a HUGE issue in all of pro sports. Ownership is huge as it adds far more revenue streams than just NHL games, events, concerts, concessions, parking, sponsorship etc etc. Maintenance is built in to it but also funding can be sought through local governments for upgrades et al. Also tax breaks for owners not the ones renting.

The NHL wants the team to control the arena. That's different from owning it.

I'm going to take Edmonton's arena just because I'm most familiar with it, but broadly speaking something similar exists for most arenas.

Rogers Place, home of the Edmonton Oilers, is owned by the City of Edmonton, but OEG (the ownership group of the OIlers) have a 35 year lease. That means the Oilers get all revenue from Rogers Place, including concerts and the like. The Oilers also owned land around the arena and got to develop several new buildings in the area. The OIlers chipped in roughly 25% of the cost of building Rogers Place.

The advantage (if you're the Oilers) is that in 2051 when the lease expires you can now threaten to leave town if the city doesn't help to either renovate, or build a new arena.

I can also tell you that the Oilers old arena, Northlands, is going to cost several million dollars to demolish - costs that again fall entirely on the city, not the team.

 

[brentashton]

I live in Anthem (PT snowbird) and western Canada. I frequent the Desert Ridge area for some shopping etc, and even as a shopping area there are so many areas that have more foottraffic and cachet as a destination - in other parts of the valley. Is that chunk of land near Scottsdale Road and north side of 101 where this is all being proposed?

If so, with all the hate for Westgate, are they really landing in any different spot geographically? It seems like they are still far away from their subscriber/fan base in south Scottsdale and Tempe. I get that arena control, that they eventually lost in Glendale, would be a huge win back for the business, but it’s seems like an odd spot otherwise. Tempe would have been bad for me (I prefer to travel to Glendale than to Tempe) but great for the team and the city.

Just like having the girl of your dreams dump you, this site feels like they are “settling” for what comes next. Do the valley and hockey diehards here believe that this is a sustainable location?

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Succes lies in publicly funded facility where the building is club owned and mainly used as an entertainment facility first and have a hockey rink second.

Getting a hockey market where even when your team suck, you still draw a crowd is the cherry on top.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Phoenix Roadrunners (WHA) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What about 'em?

They didn't have an entertainment district either.... proves my point.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I live in Anthem (PT snowbird) and western Canada. I frequent the Desert Ridge area for some shopping etc, and even as a shopping area there are so many areas that have more foottraffic and cachet as a destination - in other parts of the valley. Is that chunk of land near Scottsdale Road and north side of 101 where this is all being proposed?

If so, with all the hate for Westgate, are they really landing in any different spot geographically? It seems like they are still far away from their subscriber/fan base in south Scottsdale and Tempe. I get that arena control, that they eventually lost in Glendale, would be a huge win back for the business, but it’s seems like an odd spot otherwise. Tempe would have been bad for me (I prefer to travel to Glendale than to Tempe) but great for the team and the city.

Just like having the girl of your dreams dump you, this site feels like they are “settling” for what comes next. Do the valley and hockey diehards here believe that this is a sustainable location?

Again, it's about the entertainment district. Valley fans are fickle at best, the hockey won't make 'em money.

 

[oldunclehue]

The NHL wants the team to control the arena. That's different from owning it.

I'm going to take Edmonton's arena just because I'm most familiar with it, but broadly speaking something similar exists for most arenas.

Rogers Place, home of the Edmonton Oilers, is owned by the City of Edmonton, but OEG (the ownership group of the OIlers) have a 35 year lease. That means the Oilers get all revenue from Rogers Place, including concerts and the like. The Oilers also owned land around the arena and got to develop several new buildings in the area. The OIlers chipped in roughly 25% of the cost of building Rogers Place.

The advantage (if you're the Oilers) is that in 2051 when the lease expires you can now threaten to leave town if the city doesn't help to either renovate, or build a new arena.

I can also tell you that the Oilers old arena, Northlands, is going to cost several million dollars to demolish - costs that again fall entirely on the city, not the team.

The NHL wants arena's subsidized by local governments but owned by team Owners. It comes down to the unknowns of municipal, provincial and federal governments that is the issue. NHL does not care to have to negotiate with governments each time they need or want something in regards to the team. Look at the mess Glendale has been for the NHL over the years....countless millions of dollars all because the NHL convinced a government to build the arena.

Issue is as a tenant to an arena, your at the will of whoever is in control at the time of a lease negotiation. If times are tough ( and those are already here and getting worse) you may fall into a lease that is less and less favorable to the NHL team....as in what happened to the Coyotes in Glendale.

The Oilers arena set up is a good situation right now for everyone....but if economic times come crashing down and the superstars all want out of the city...what happens when that situation sours? What happens when the NHL prices itself out of the market and people stop coming. Does the city demand other revenue to cover the losses from the NHL team? Operating the arena is a good thing in this but not the end all be all....as if the lease expires and the new government wants to manage it to make more profit or tender it to a different organization, the power is not in the Oilers hands.

I get some of the risk isn't there if you don't own the building, but there is also less stability in the cost to operate the arena if a less supportive government comes to the table.

 

[brentashton]

Again, it's about the entertainment district. Valley fans are fickle at best, the hockey won't make 'em money.

Agreed. Hockey is the loss leader to use a retail shopping concept. But what will that area attract as an entertainment district that they don’t already have there? Movies theatres, shopping Center, big box stores, restaurants and bars galore already. Just more of them? Hardly seems like that helps it turn the corner. Meruello won’t be owning any of that, so he flips real estate or acts as developer but at the point of completion it’s not his. I guess he could become the holding company that retains ownership of all the property and building developments and lease everything out to the operating business for the income stream. I just don’t see it as a destination site that isn’t already there. I can already go eat drink shop watch a movie, sleep in a hotel at Desert Ridge. Just more of it I guess and now the $$ go to AMs bank account. In Tempe as a greenfield development there seemed to be other tangible benefits that are missing from this potential play. I do wish them well. It would be sad that a metro population couldn’t make it work here. And darn it, they are exciting to watch this year. Tourigny really has them playing well.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Again, it's about the entertainment district. Valley fans are fickle at best, the hockey won't make 'em money.

Which begs the question, why bother with the hockey team or the arena? Just build an entertainment district with hotels & residences.

 

[Skidooboy]

What about 'em?

They didn't have an entertainment district either.... proves my point.

you said 50 years? as if I was in error...so i pointed to a pro hockey team from 50 years ago that failed in Arizona because the fans and community didn't show up......

So what was was your point I just proved? ... Arizona has historically and continuously failed to be a sustainable engaged hockey market? If so then yes that is correct.

 

[Salsero1]

you said 50 years? as if I was in error...so i pointed to a pro hockey team from 50 years ago that failed in Arizona because the fans and community didn't show up......

So what was was your point I just proved? ... Arizona has historically and continuously failed to be a sustainable engaged hockey market? If so then yes that is correct.

Go cry into your syrup.

 

[Skidooboy]

Go cry into your syrup.

I see why AZ is ranked as the worst place to live in the USA.

A new report says Arizona is the worst state to live in. Why?

A new report by CNBC looked at factors like air quality, health care and crime rates when determining the best and worst places to live.

www.deseret.com

 

[Shwan]

Which begs the question, why bother with the hockey team or the arena? Just build an entertainment district with hotels & residences.

The sportsbook that's losing him money, obviously

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Agreed. Hockey is the loss leader to use a retail shopping concept. But what will that area attract as an entertainment district that they don’t already have there? Movies theatres, shopping Center, big box stores, restaurants and bars galore already. Just more of them? Hardly seems like that helps it turn the corner. Meruello won’t be owning any of that, so he flips real estate or acts as developer but at the point of completion it’s not his. I guess he could become the holding company that retains ownership of all the property and building developments and lease everything out to the operating business for the income stream. I just don’t see it as a destination site that isn’t already there. I can already go eat drink shop watch a movie, sleep in a hotel at Desert Ridge. Just more of it I guess and now the $$ go to AMs bank account. In Tempe as a greenfield development there seemed to be other tangible benefits that are missing from this potential play. I do wish them well. It would be sad that a metro population couldn’t make it work here. And darn it, they are exciting to watch this year. Tourigny really has them playing well.

Desert Ridge is pretty awful, unless you like traffic. Traffic means lotsa folks, so there's room for another, even more so considering future growth. Anyway, I don't see much difference between this and TED, except I think it will turn out TED provided AM more advantage on the back end of the deal.

Which begs the question, why bother with the hockey team or the arena? Just build an entertainment district with hotels & residences.

Because I like hockey of course and the valley desperately wants to keep me here.

 

[Llama19]

Desert Ridge is pretty awful, unless you like traffic. Traffic means lotsa folks, so there's room for another, even more so considering future growth. Anyway, I don't see much difference between this and TED, except I think it will turn out TED provided AM more advantage on the back end of the deal.


Because I like hockey of course and the valley desperately wants to keep me here.

I do not think it is the valley...more like the politicians...