CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Coyotedroppings]

you said 50 years? as if I was in error...so i pointed to a pro hockey team from 50 years ago that failed in Arizona because the fans and community didn't show up......

So what was was your point I just proved? ... Arizona has historically and continuously failed to be a sustainable engaged hockey market? If so then yes that is correct.

You can't have it both ways.... The actual number for pro hockey is 49 years, the RR's were not televised, merchandise was not an issue and our tv views are not sub par.
But basically yes, you proved my point that an entertainment district is necessary, I never claimed that this valley chock full of bandwagon jumping, route for the teams from the cities they used to live in, nutless puking excuses for sports fans was ever sustainable for the franchise, nor did I ever claim it currently is such. Thing is, some people have vision and with the massive population, only increasing and kids that will be assimilating to their home team (where their parents refused), it will be sustainable given time..... yes, more than 27 years.

I do not think it is the valley...more like the politicians...

You should try not to think Llama, good Lord it must be depressing inside your skull, when you do.

 

[brentashton]

Which begs the question, why bother with the hockey team or the arena? Just build an entertainment district with hotels & residences.

The hockey team ownership was also AMs key to acquiring one of the limited in number, sports betting books in Arizona when they were being issued. If he sold the Yotes I suspect he’d lose the book license as it was tied to owning a big 4 sports franchise. He’s a casino guy first and foremost so I suspect that’s part of the angle.

Someone with way more AZ knowledge will correct me please if I’m incorrect.

 

[Fatass]

Forgive my ignorance but will the Coyotes be a viable club ;regardless of local interest and attendance) providing any new arena location has a gambling license?

 

[brentashton]

I see why AZ is ranked as the worst place to live in the USA.

A new report says Arizona is the worst state to live in. Why?

A new report by CNBC looked at factors like air quality, health care and crime rates when determining the best and worst places to live.

www.deseret.com

CNBC. That about says it all for journalistic credibility.

if AZ is the worst then the best must be like some kind of Xanadu place, because this isnt the worst place to live or be, regardless of what yardstick you apply.

 

[PainForShane]

you said 50 years? as if I was in error...so i pointed to a pro hockey team from 50 years ago that failed in Arizona because the fans and community didn't show up......

So what was was your point I just proved? ... Arizona has historically and continuously failed to be a sustainable engaged hockey market? If so then yes that is correct.

What the hell?

You brought up a WHA team. That entire league failed, along with the vast majority of its teams, before the merger took place. Teams like the Philadelphia Blazers which became the Vancouver Blazers and then the Calgary Cowboys failed in each location, clearly that doesn't mean the markets were bad. Toronto and NYC and Chicago had WHA teams, they all failed too.

This might be the dumbest argument this thread has ever seen, and here you are going out of your way to repeat yourself and continue pretending / defending the underlying assumption that a failed WHA team is somehow a functional barometer of market interest in hockey 50 years later.

If you actually believe this, please tell all the fans of the Leafs / Rangers / Canucks / Blackhawks etc that you believe their markets don't support hockey because their WHA teams folded 50 years ago. Please let us know how that conversation goes thanks

 

[Boris Zubov]

The hockey team ownership was also AMs key to acquiring one of the limited in number, sports betting books in Arizona when they were being issued. If he sold the Yotes I suspect he’d lose the book license as it was tied to owning a big 4 sports franchise. He’s a casino guy first and foremost so I suspect that’s part of the angle.

Someone with way more AZ knowledge will correct me please if I’m incorrect.

Saharabets, which is Meruelo's sportsbook, has been a giant failure to this point. Maybe that was one reason he purchased the team, but it's not enough of a reason to justify a $2B investment 4 years later.

 

[mouser]

The hockey team ownership was also AMs key to acquiring one of the limited in number, sports betting books in Arizona when they were being issued. If he sold the Yotes I suspect he’d lose the book license as it was tied to owning a big 4 sports franchise. He’s a casino guy first and foremost so I suspect that’s part of the angle.

Someone with way more AZ knowledge will correct me please if I’m incorrect.

Saharabets, which is Meruelo's sportsbook, has been a giant failure to this point. Maybe that was one reason he purchased the team, but it's not enough of a reason to justify a $2B investment 4 years later.

I believe the AZ betting license was a factor for Meruelo, but not as critical as many might assume.

Saharabets is a minor sportsbook player. AM should have been able to get more short term money partnering the Coyotes AZ gambling license with a bigger Sportsbook—like most AZ license owners did. Vs using his own fledgling brand Sportsbook.

I‘m not predicting where Saharabets will eventually end up. IMO, AM is taking the longer term approach to grow Saharabets, similar to long term strategy he’s employed in other businesses he owns.

 

[brentashton]

What the hell?

You brought up a WHA team. That entire league failed, along with the vast majority of its teams, before the merger took place. Teams like the Philadelphia Blazers which became the Vancouver Blazers and then the Calgary Cowboys failed in each location, clearly that doesn't mean the markets were bad. Toronto and NYC and Chicago had WHA teams, they all failed too.

This might be the dumbest argument this thread has ever seen, and here you are going out of your way to repeat yourself and continue pretending / defending the underlying assumption that a failed WHA team is somehow a functional barometer of market interest in hockey 50 years later.

If you actually believe this, please tell all the fans of the Leafs / Rangers / Canucks / Blackhawks etc that you believe their markets don't support hockey because their WHA teams folded 50 years ago. Please let us know how that conversation goes thanks

That said, the Birmingham Bulls always rocked though (Can’t call them the Toronto Toros for any money). The baby Bulls were such a FU to the NHL at that time.

You could extrapolate this twisted thinking to suggest these other markets are failures- Denver (Colorado Rockies), San Jose (Oakland/California Golden Seal - a truly bad franchise), Minneapolis (NorthStars) MN a truly shitty hockey marketplace, lol), Winnipeg. Since the OP is going back in the annals of history, might as well trot out St Louis (Eagles), Ottawa Sen 1.0, Seattle Metropolitans, Montreal Wanderers. The fact that there are even more to add to this crazy list just reinforces the silliness of the Phx Roadrunners comparison.

 

[Shwan]

I believe the AZ betting license was a factor for Meruelo, but not as critical as many might assume.

Saharabets is a minor sportsbook player. AM should have been able to get more short term money partnering the Coyotes AZ gambling license with a bigger Sportsbook—like most AZ license owners did. Vs using his own fledgling brand Sportsbook.

I‘m not predicting where Saharabets will eventually end up. IMO, AM is taking the longer term approach to grow Saharabets, similar to long term strategy he’s employed in other businesses he owns.

The online portion will never grow. The big 4 already account for ~90% of the online handle in any given month. B4+Desert Diamond and Barstool are 96% of the online handle.

In comparison in September, which was considered a strong month for Saharabets as they brought in ~$60,000, accounted for 0.0978% of the monthly online handle for the state. (Edit: for clarification Saharabets' handle was $591,888 online and of that they kept $62,251)

That'll never change barring some cataclysmic event.

The best Meruelo can hope for is having a physical sports book bring in a few hundred thousand dollars a month in extra revenue like the FanDue/Draft Kings physical sportsbooks, minus the complete overhead as he'd be responsible for the building, kiosks, servers etc.

 

[mouser]

The online portion will never grow. The big 4 already account for ~90% of the online handle in any given month. B4+Desert Diamond and Barstool are 96% of the online handle.

In comparison in September, which was considered a strong month for Saharabets as they brought in ~$60,000, accounted for 0.0978% of the monthly online handle for the state.

That'll never change barring some cataclysmic event.

The best Meruelo can hope for is having a physical sports book bring in a few hundred thousand dollars a month in extra revenue like the FanDue/Draft Kings physical sportsbooks, minus the complete overhead as he'd be responsible for the building, kiosks, servers etc.

When I said long term plan with Saharabets, I was considering potential expansion of the sportsbook outside of Arizona into other states in the future as online gambling laws evolve.

I agree with you that AZ isn’t the money pot for Saharabets.

 

[Shwan]

When I said long term plan with Saharabets, I was considering potential expansion of the sportsbook outside of Arizona into other states in the future as online gambling laws evolve.

That's fair, but again, it's been two years since Saharabets launched and the sportsbooks inside his own casinos are still ran by William Hill/Caesers.

SAHARA Las Vegas in collaboration with global gaming leader William Hill offers a sportsbook experience featuring groundbreaking wagering technologies designed to provide guests with an unrivaled sports betting offering.

William Hill offers Nevada’s most expansive wagering menu throughout the calendar year and anything you can wager on at our full-service sports book inside Grand Sierra Resort and Casino is also available via the William Hill Mobile Sports app. This includes futures, props and much more on the following sports:

Did Meruelo Group sign some absurd long term contract and has to wait to launch his own product in his own casinos? Who knows. But just like his Arizona Saharabets plan, sports betting expansion is all about first mover and advertising, two things we know he's allergic to.

 

[mouser]

That's fair, but again, it's been two years since Saharabets launched and the sportsbooks inside his own casinos are still ran by William Hill/Caesers.





Did Meruelo Group sign some absurd long term contract and has to wait to launch his own product in his own casinos? Who knows. But just like his Arizona Saharabets plan, sports betting expansion is all about first mover and advertising, two things we know he's allergic to.

Having Saharabets might get AM a better deal from William Hill next contract renegotiation.

Not predicting that will happen, simply recognizing business decisions are usually more complicated than we casual observers think.

 

[hammer42]

Let the Coyotes die already this fiasco has gone on for over a decade it is time to move them to Houston where they can at least play in front of fans that care because this is the only way Houston gets an NHL. team because Tilman Fertitta the owner of the Houston Rockets is not going to put up 1-2 billion dollars for an NHL. hockey team in Texas the only way it happens if he gets it cheap via relocation of the Coyotes .

 

[Shwan]

Having Saharabets might get AM a better deal from William Hill next contract renegotiation.

Not predicting that will happen, simply recognizing business decisions are usually more complicated than we casual observers think.

Another good point

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I believe the AZ betting license was a factor for Meruelo, but not as critical as many might assume.

Saharabets is a minor sportsbook player. AM should have been able to get more short term money partnering the Coyotes AZ gambling license with a bigger Sportsbook—like most AZ license owners did. Vs using his own fledgling brand Sportsbook.

I‘m not predicting where Saharabets will eventually end up. IMO, AM is taking the longer term approach to grow Saharabets, similar to long term strategy he’s employed in other businesses he owns.

Don't care for the sportsbook situation at all, thus don't follow, but having an arena where he can have a physical location be of benefit?

Man I wish I had likes for this post.

That said, the Birmingham Bulls always rocked though (Can’t call them the Toronto Toros for any money). The baby Bulls were such a FU to the NHL at that time.

You could extrapolate this twisted thinking to suggest these other markets are failures- Denver (Colorado Rockies), San Jose (Oakland/California Golden Seal - a truly bad franchise), Minneapolis (NorthStars) MN a truly shitty hockey marketplace, lol), Winnipeg. Since the OP is going back in the annals of history, might as well trot out St Louis (Eagles), Ottawa Sen 1.0, Seattle Metropolitans, Montreal Wanderers. The fact that there are even more to add to this crazy list just reinforces the silliness of the Phx Roadrunners comparison.

He thought he could play "gotcha" with some lame ass comparison.... just didn't think it through is all.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Let the Coyotes die already this fiasco has gone on for over a decade it is time to move them to Houston where they can at least play in front of fans that care because this is the only way Houston gets an NHL. team because Tilman Fertitta the owner of the Houston Rockets is not going to put up 1-2 billion dollars for an NHL. hockey team in Texas the only way it happens if he gets it cheap via relocation of the Coyotes .

They wouldn't die then would they? The original Jets still live through the Coyotes and live with the curse of the Avco Cup on a continual basis.

 

[brentashton]

Let the Coyotes die already this fiasco has gone on for over a decade it is time to move them to Houston where they can at least play in front of fans that care because this is the only way Houston gets an NHL. team because Tilman Fertitta the owner of the Houston Rockets is not going to put up 1-2 billion dollars for an NHL. hockey team in Texas the only way it happens if he gets it cheap via relocation of the Coyotes .

So your proposed solution to what admittedly has been a rough go in PHX is to move them to Houston and to an owner that you admit doesn’t like the way the NHL and it’s BoD conducts its business and rules for entry into the league (you said he wouldn’t pay for an expansion team)?

I find it hard to see the positive in that possible relocation scenario, long term.

Move team that is struggling to find a long term location to play, to an owner in another jurisdiction that is an uncooperative business partner to the league and other owners. Just call them the Houston Headache. At least in Meruello you have an owner that bought in knowing the local challenges but committed to working locally to find a solution. And that is just what he is doing.

You want to fix an issue by creating a problem. Interesting approach.

 

[CTHabsfan]

I see why AZ is ranked as the worst place to live in the USA.

A new report says Arizona is the worst state to live in. Why?

A new report by CNBC looked at factors like air quality, health care and crime rates when determining the best and worst places to live.

www.deseret.com

"Although CNBC ranks the state last, the U.S. Census Bureau reports that Arizona is one of the fastest-growing states in the country, placing third in numeric growth in 2020."

Arizona is "the worst place to live in the USA", yet it's the third fasting-growing state in the country????

 

[JimAnchower]

I see why AZ is ranked as the worst place to live in the USA.

A new report says Arizona is the worst state to live in. Why?

A new report by CNBC looked at factors like air quality, health care and crime rates when determining the best and worst places to live.

www.deseret.com

AZ wasn't in the bottom 10 for the 2023 list. It also wasn't in the top 10 either.

 

[aqib]

"Although CNBC ranks the state last, the U.S. Census Bureau reports that Arizona is one of the fastest-growing states in the country, placing third in numeric growth in 2020."

Arizona is "the worst place to live in the USA", yet it's the third fasting-growing state in the country????

Lists like this are stupid. Everyone has different wants and needs so everyone will have different ideas on what is a good or bad place. Like I see Miami high on many of the lists. I lived there and hated it. Cleveland is on many lists as a horrible place to live. I had the best years of my life there. I love living in Toronto now. There are so many people who think this is the best place in the world. On the flip side I know a lot of people here who hate everything about it.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Let the Coyotes die already this fiasco has gone on for over a decade it is time to move them to Houston where they can at least play in front of fans that care because this is the only way Houston gets an NHL. team because Tilman Fertitta the owner of the Houston Rockets is not going to put up 1-2 billion dollars for an NHL. hockey team in Texas the only way it happens if he gets it cheap via relocation of the Coyotes .

The one thing the league is going to protect above everything else is franchise valuations.

The way valuation is calculated is very simple - you look at what other similar things have sold for and draw comparisons. That's why after Steve Ballmer bought the LA Clippers for an unheard of $2 billion it wound up raising the value of all NBA franchises.

So the thing is - if Fertitta is able to buy the Coyotes at a rock-bottom price that will in turn decrease the value of all NHL franchises.

If the Coyotes wind up moving, the buyer is going to be spending somewhere around $1 billion dollars. It will be a combination of cash and assuming debt (pretty sure the Coyotes have a lot of that), and it may be a combination of a purchase price plus a relocation fee, but franchise valuation must be preserved at all costs.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Not sure what it means, but it is the Coyotes verified account.

 

[Stumbledore]

Not sure what it means, but it is the Coyotes verified account.

Hmmm, it seems like something's a foot.

And I don't mean that thing at the end of your leg.

 

[BMN]

But basically yes, you proved my point that an entertainment district is necessary, I never claimed that this valley chock full of bandwagon jumping, root for the teams from the cities they used to live in, nutless puking excuses for sports fans was ever sustainable for the franchise, nor did I ever claim it currently is such.

OK, I typed a long-winded response to this that didn't make it (boring formatting concerns) but I'll tidy it up here with:

Since when is the sports team you pick an act of courage? Or I guess put another way: Not rooting for another team an act of cowardice?

You act like you're entitled to every hockey fan that lives in your city going to your favourite team's game like some sort of tax. Which, by the way, is a helluva way to try to sell someone on your favourite team...

 

[BMN]

Not sure what it means, but it is the Coyotes verified account.

I would assume this would be most of what Dreger posted about but maybe with a more exact address and price?