CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[TheLegend]

So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot.

I reckon Ron Tapscott decided to climb up on his soapbox again. He's more or less the Tempe version of Ken Jones.



Anyway.... for those who can't access the article. The author submitted questions via email to the city and you can see their replies (in bold) here.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

According to this document.... the City of Tempe shared none of the information from the consultant with Bluebird or TempeWins.


Andrew Ching was the city manager for Tempe mentioned heavily in the Tempe response. His resonse can be found here.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Finding it a bit strange that this article comes out now.... other than another city council election is coming up soon, and Tapscott is quite an active old bird in them.

 

[TheLegend]

Coyotes aren't going to be playing in Tempe, why do we continue to live in the past with these threads?

Because you know there's an old adage about drama and four-legged cloven animals.

But I think it's fine that these things come to light.

 

[Llama19]

State Law (ARS 9-500.14) generally prohibits cities from using funds to influence elections, so having a statement in the scope of work document with the city that says "This will provide the data needed to identify and micro-target messaging" is pretty fishy.

The city can argue that by "messaging" they meant "informational pamphlets on a proposed bond election as provided in section 35-454 if those informational pamphlets present factual information in a neutral manner" as the ARS allows.

Seems typical of how the Left operates be it local...state-wide...or federal...

This is absolutely chilling...

What possible reason would the City...and by rote...the Coyotes organization have in identifying opponents...

Is it to create a sort of "Black Book" of enemies for possible intimidation and/or retribution should they lose the Referendum...and...of course...they did...

So...if you were against the proposal...given the climate and weaponization of government...against the citizenry...who disagree with whatever ideologies, edicts, or policies...you can find yourself being targeted by governmental agencies, tax assessors, the IRS, your bank, your employer, woke clientele, by social media platforms and so on...

Good for Mr Tapscott for going after them...

 

[Headshot77]

Coyotes aren't going to be playing in Tempe, why do we continue to live in the past with these threads?

This news came out TODAY lmao

 

[awfulwaffle]

This news came out TODAY lmao

And? This is about the City of Tempe, not the Coyotes. The vote failed, so why does it matter at this point?

 

[aqib]

Just a question for the Arizona residents here. How hard is it for voters to get something that was passed by a city/county/state on the ballot? Like when I lived in Ohio it was pretty easy if it was something that people really don't like. You just needed a certain % of registered voters. How does it work in Arizona?

 

[TheLegend]

Just a question for the Arizona residents here. How hard is it for voters to get something that was passed by a city/county/state on the ballot? Like when I lived in Ohio it was pretty easy if it was something that people really don't like. You just needed a certain % of registered voters. How does it work in Arizona?

Depends on the type of referendum/election and location. There are varying standards for each.

Most of them are % based though. The standard for TED wasn’t very high. Something like 10% of registered voters who voted in the previous major election, which ended up being ~3800. Coyotes had more than double that number in about 10 days.

 

[TheLegend]

Seems typical of how the Left operates be it local...state-wide...or federal...

This is absolutely chilling...

What possible reason would the City...and by rote...the Coyotes organization have in identifying opponents...

Is it to create a sort of "Black Book" of enemies for possible intimidation and/or retribution should they lose the Referendum...and...of course...they did...

So...if you were against the proposal...given the climate and weaponization of government...against the citizenry...who disagree with whatever ideologies, edicts, or policies...you can find yourself being targeted by governmental agencies, tax assessors, the IRS, your bank, your employer, woke clientele, by social media platforms and so on...

Good for Mr Tapscott for going after them...

“how the Left operates…”.

Oh my freaking God…..

I don’t know if this is another one of your bad quote jobs or not….

But do you mean ”the left” like Lauren Kuby or Dawn Thacher-Pench?? Both are hard-core liberals politically. They ran Tempe1st with the premise of “big bad billionaire who supports far right agendas wants poor working man’s money.”

Nothing “chilling“ about this at all Llama…. Unless maybe you’re seeing black helicopters flying over you home.

Coyotes weren’t involved with this…. This was the city acting on its own. The “guilt by association“ thing ain’t going to work here.



And if this is Mr. Tapscott talking…. He’s just doing what’s commonly known as “political projection.”

And if these are your own words…. you really are incredibly more clueless in how it all works than I’ve always been led to believe from you.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

“how the Left operates…”.

Oh my freaking God…..

I don’t know if this is another one of your bad quote jobs or not….

But do you mean ”the left” like Lauren Kuby or Dawn Thacher-Pench?? Both are hard-core liberals politically. They ran Tempe1st with the premise of “big bad billionaire who supports far right agendas wants poor working man’s money.”

Nothing “chilling“ about this at all Llama…. Unless maybe you’re seeing black helicopters flying over you home.

Coyotes weren’t involved with this…. This was the city acting on its own. The “guilt by association“ thing ain’t going to work here.



And if this is Mr. Tapscott talking…. He’s just doing what’s commonly known as “political projection.”

And if these are your own words…. you really are incredibly more clueless in how it all works than I’ve always been led to believe from you.

Pistols drawn... (So to speak)

@TheLegend , coyotes are ABSOLUTELY, what us " PRESUUMED" talked about.
AM is where it comes from (behind closed)

@Llama19 , there is huge political hee-haw in words..

 

[TheLegend]

Pistols drawn... (So to speak)

@legand , coyotes are ABSOLUTELY, what us " PRESUUMED" talked about.
AM is where it comes from (behind closed)

@Llama19 , there is huge political hee-haw in words..

More like someone brought a knife to a fight with a guy with access to an ammo dump.

Not presumed……. ASSumed.

Read the responses from Tempe and it’s former City Manager if you haven’t yet. Links are posted above.

The Coyotes had their own political consultant advising (Albeit not a very good one it seems).

 

[Devils 3silverones]

Not presumed……. ASSumed.

Read the responses from Tempe and it’s former City Manager if you haven’t yet. Links are posted above.

The Coyotes had their own political consultant advising (Albeit not a very good one it seems).

Thanks for the spell check. I have. Read them I mean.

 

[aqib]

Depends on the type of referendum/election and location. There are varying standards for each.

Most of them are % based though. The standard for TED wasn’t very high. Something like 10% of registered voters who voted in the previous major election, which ended up being ~3800. Coyotes had more than double that number in about 10 days.

So how would they be able to avoid a referendum? If say they made a deal I'm Mesa, couldn't some group get petitions together to overturn it.

 

[Tawnos]

So how would they be able to avoid a referendum? If say they made a deal I'm Mesa, couldn't some group get petitions together to overturn it.

For a privately funded arena on privately owned land?

 

[TheLegend]

So how would they be able to avoid a referendum? If say they made a deal I'm Mesa, couldn't some group get petitions together to overturn it.

County island. There are tons of them.

Maricopa County is the second most populous in the US (~2.3 million voters in the last general). The threshold for gathering enough signatures for a public referendum is much higher in both manpower and cost.

Of course you’d need a neighboring city bring the infrastructure to you. To use your example, IIRC Mesa can allocate up to $1.5 million towards that before it could be subject to a referendum. Meruelo would have to stay under that or foot the costs over it himself.

 

[aqib]

For a privately funded arena on privately owned land?

Again, I don't live in Arizona so I was asking for clarification on how the laws work out there. Different states have different rules. Not every state allows voters to petition for a referendum to overturn legislation. So based on what everyone has said it seems to be that if there is any sort of tax break, zoning change, etc. that requires an act of Council or any legislation passed then a referendum could be called.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

“how the Left operates…”.

Oh my freaking God…..

....

Nothing “chilling“ about this at all Llama…. Unless maybe you’re seeing black helicopters flying over you home.

He did post his tinfoil antenna earlier...not much of a stretch to assume there's a coordinated hat somewhere.

 

[eojsmada]

So how would they be able to avoid a referendum? If say they made a deal I'm Mesa, couldn't some group get petitions together to overturn it.

The biggest issue is that it's not enough to simply buy a piece of land and develop it. Depending on how it is zoned, he would more than likely have to petition for a zoning request, which can open up a whole can of worms depending on how he wants to develop the land. And depending on the jurisdiction, he might have a hard time implementing an "Entertainment District" to go along with the Arena due to any number of constraints. Once you open up a rezoning request, you are opening yourself up to the "neighbors" showing up and making things messy. And on top of that, depending on the size of the project, there may be "requests" by the zoning committee to include certain upgrades to the area, usually this effects just the infrastructure, but considering that Arizona gets its power and water from other states, they could be asking for offsets to help with this.

It's not so much having a referendum that is the issue, it's just that doing anything on the scale that the Coyotes are wanting to do, will require a lot of hoops to jump through. It would be different if a developer came in and literally just built (insert project here) as it was stated on the zoning. For instance, building single family homes or commercial/industrial development. Any cross-over or change in the current zoning requires a lot of work and then a period of time for surrounding folks to make any case for that parcel not to be zoned differently.

And only being given a very limited amount of time (with the current "soft deadline" of Jan/February) to do it, makes things more dicey that it will ever get done. Not impossible...just difficult.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Even if the Coytes were going to privately develop an arena on land that they already owned that was properly zoned - there is still all the associated infrastructure costs - building roads, water and sewage links to the arena - that would need to be approved by whatever local municipality.

Plus lets not forget - the COyotes are not profitable! Fundamentally they're looking for extra revenue streams that will cover operating losses until the day (whenever that ay be) that the Coyotes stop losing money.

 

[aqib]

The biggest issue is that it's not enough to simply buy a piece of land and develop it. Depending on how it is zoned, he would more than likely have to petition for a zoning request, which can open up a whole can of worms depending on how he wants to develop the land. And depending on the jurisdiction, he might have a hard time implementing an "Entertainment District" to go along with the Arena due to any number of constraints. Once you open up a rezoning request, you are opening yourself up to the "neighbors" showing up and making things messy. And on top of that, depending on the size of the project, there may be "requests" by the zoning committee to include certain upgrades to the area, usually this effects just the infrastructure, but considering that Arizona gets its power and water from other states, they could be asking for offsets to help with this.

It's not so much having a referendum that is the issue, it's just that doing anything on the scale that the Coyotes are wanting to do, will require a lot of hoops to jump through. It would be different if a developer came in and literally just built (insert project here) as it was stated on the zoning. For instance, building single family homes or commercial/industrial development. Any cross-over or change in the current zoning requires a lot of work and then a period of time for surrounding folks to make any case for that parcel not to be zoned differently.

And only being given a very limited amount of time (with the current "soft deadline" of Jan/February) to do it, makes things more dicey that it will ever get done. Not impossible...just difficult.

It's the whole avoiding a referendum thing that I think might be impossible.

 

[eojsmada]

It's the whole avoiding a referendum thing that I think might be impossible.

As long as they don't formally appeal to the locality for a deal to bypass the zoning committee and it can be handled within the re-zoning process, they don't need a referendum. Which is why they are trying to approach the deal the way they are.

But they are still open to being canceled by people within their intended location due to possible negative impacts of the re-zoning and the arena/entertainment district. It is not a simple process and requires a lengthy amount of time and can be held up indefinitely if the zoning commission and the citizens in that area make a big enough stink.

 

[Stumbledore]

As long as they don't formally appeal to the locality for a deal to bypass the zoning committee and it can be handled within the re-zoning process, they don't need a referendum. Which is why they are trying to approach the deal the way they are.

But they are still open to being canceled by people within their intended location due to possible negative impacts of the re-zoning and the arena/entertainment district. It is not a simple process and requires a lengthy amount of time and can be held up indefinitely if the zoning commission and the citizens in that area make a big enough stink.

Every where you go there's always a cohort of "not in my backyard" morons.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Every where you go there's always a cohort of "not in my backyard" morons.

My definitely not kind of racist grandpa used to yell at people that walked by his house for having the audacity of...being overweight?

 

[TheLegend]

It's the whole avoiding a referendum thing that I think might be impossible.

Glendale actually had managed it with the VIA Resort project. Right up until they tried backdooring in a GPLET a few weeks ago.

The group that backed Tempe1st to the tune of 7 figures caught wind of it and it suddenly went away.

City of Phoenix got the remodel to Footprint done without one.

There are ways.

 

[TheLegend]

The biggest issue is that it's not enough to simply buy a piece of land and develop it. Depending on how it is zoned, he would more than likely have to petition for a zoning request, which can open up a whole can of worms depending on how he wants to develop the land. And depending on the jurisdiction, he might have a hard time implementing an "Entertainment District" to go along with the Arena due to any number of constraints. Once you open up a rezoning request, you are opening yourself up to the "neighbors" showing up and making things messy. And on top of that, depending on the size of the project, there may be "requests" by the zoning committee to include certain upgrades to the area, usually this effects just the infrastructure, but considering that Arizona gets its power and water from other states, they could be asking for offsets to help with this.

It's not so much having a referendum that is the issue, it's just that doing anything on the scale that the Coyotes are wanting to do, will require a lot of hoops to jump through. It would be different if a developer came in and literally just built (insert project here) as it was stated on the zoning. For instance, building single family homes or commercial/industrial development. Any cross-over or change in the current zoning requires a lot of work and then a period of time for surrounding folks to make any case for that parcel not to be zoned differently.

And only being given a very limited amount of time (with the current "soft deadline" of Jan/February) to do it, makes things more dicey that it will ever get done. Not impossible...just difficult.

City residents have very little influence on what happens on a county island. (See Glendale v Tonoho O’odham)

Other than taking it to court and then they risk of having to take on the brunt of the court costs. Especially if they lose.

 

[PainForShane]

My definitely not kind of racist grandpa used to yell at people that walked by his house for having the audacity of...being overweight?

Ha, this honestly made me laugh.

And then because of your avatar I also imagined your definitely not kind of racist grandpa also yelling at people because "kids these days" have only played Breath of Wild / Tears of the Kingdom instead of the 'far superior' Link to the Past or Ocarina of Time. And now I am laughing some more.

Glad / kinda sad we've moved on from discussing how quantum theory relates to classical mechanics (or doesn't). But at least now everyone can enjoy the humor