CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[aqib]

The way the Wild arrived and have been run since their inception is night and day vs how the Yotes arrived and have been run. You can't separate market engagement from how the franchise has been run.

You come across as such a bigot.

The Wild haven't had a lot of sustained success. The Yotes were actually pretty decent when they first arrived. They made the playoffs 5 out of their first 6 seasons. Attendance was down 15% from year 1 to year 6. Yes the arena downtown was not set up for hockey but its not like it was set up worse in year 6 than in year 1.

I've lost track of the number of excuses that have been made for the Coyotes. One municipality decided they would be better off kicking them out of their already built arena and another decided they would rather have a landfill. At a time when sports teams are skyrocketing in value and attracting investors from all over the world the Coyotes keep getting passed from one charlatan to another. You think all these billionaires that are pouncing on any team that comes available are all missing something?

 

[aqib]

Re: your #6. Not buying it. No adult with a functional conscience and a sense of empathy should act towards the Coyotes fans the way many here do. Shame on them.

The thing is that many fans in the sunbelt do understand where northern fans are coming from, there is zero effort on their part to see things our way. They just seem to want nothing more than for us to get hurt and kicked out of the clubhouse.

This isn't a Coyotes board. This is a business of hockey board. If we were going on the Coyotes page and trashing the market that would be one thing. That's a board for Coyotes fans and should be a safe space. This however is the Thunder Dome, you better come armed.

 

[Stumbledore]

1) Saying "Markets fail" is a cop out. Be consistent. The people who LIKE saying Atlanta and Phoenix are "failed markets" would never admit that Winnipeg and Quebec are "Failed markets."

2) I'm consistent. And that's why I lashed out at someone saying I was making "excuses." Winnipeg, Quebec City and Minnesota didn't "fail" as markets. They lacked modern arenas. That's circumstance.

If your metrics for a failed market work, they will apply and work for EVERY former NHL franchise incantation. There is legitimately nothing that works for the evidence/stats we have unless you get ultra-literal with non-number arguments. It's objectively impossible.

1) I can't speak for "people" and what they like to say, but Winnipeg and Quebec were certainly failed markets. They had a team, the market couldn't support it, so the team left.

2) I'm consistent. QC, Minn, and Wpg failed because they lacked modern arenas so the market couldn't support the team. When a market fails it's always because of circumstance. When ANY business fails, it's due to circumstances. Every time a restaurant goes under, it's because it failed in that market.

3) Yes, my metrics do apply and work for every former NHL franchise, because I'm consistent. A market fails because of the circumstances that applied in that locale at that time in history. If a city gets another NHL franchise and it succeeds, it's because of the circumstances that apply at that new point in time. A friend got married, six years later the marriage failed and she got divorced; almost ten years later, she remarried the same man and they've been happily together ever since. Their current happiness doesn't mean there was never a marriage failure or a divorce, right?

 

[Lions67]

To Salsero.
You guys have time to show you ALL care. Not just you, All of the Yotes fan base.
It was announced in 1995 that we were losing our team. We got a reprieve because tue sale ran out of time so we got one more season in 96.
People here were furious. We saw attendance plummet anywhere from 12,000 to even 11 and 10,000. Then reality started to set in. We all came back ( knowing none of it will matter) the last couple of months were full capacity ( in an old and obstructed seating arena).
We all showed up after the season ended after the Wings knocked us out in 6 games for a funeral. Not a game, but a funeral. To say goodbye. 15,600 and change all gathered to reminisce and to cry.
Then.. we had a rally.
35 to 55 ( depending on who was reporting )THOUSAND fans converged at the Forks to “save our Jets”. We held a telethon , kids literally brought and emptied their piggy banks to help fund the escrow that the NHL demanded. We met every league demand but yet tue league again would throw up roadblocks.
The Spirit of Manitoba was formed as an ownership group. We were finally going to build that new arena.
But nay nay!!!
The NHL said that ownership groups were not allowed. ( and at that time it wasnt )
And that was that. Gone. Supposed to be Minnesota but right off the bat problems happened. The Jets didn’t even have a new name yet and problems occurred.
We all know the rest of tue story.

So you guys have time to put up or shut up one last time.
Let’s see you all do this.

 

[aqib]

Of course this is also tied up in a whole "Why does America get to have all of Canada's toys and not vice-versa" argument that again.....I've lived on both sides of the border and I don't think one side can fully understand the other from an emotional perspective on that either. Our Prime Minister actually tweeted Taylor Swift because there are enough citizens worked up about the fact that she hasn't listed a tour date in Canada. You might not care about Taylor Swift and I don't particularly either but it's a great microsm for how Canadians often feel about popular culture writ large: Americans get the stuff they want, sometimes Canadians get it if Americans ever so much deign us worthy of it. It's not entirely irrational to imagine that some Canadians might want Americans to have the feeling of wanting something but not being able to have it.

And if you didn't like me projecting Taylor Swift not doing a concert as an aspersion on *ALL* Americans and think that's really dumb. Yes. Yes it is. But that's kind of the point. Particularly when I also say...

This touches on an important point. The league knows a team in QC or Hamilton will fill an arena, but it keeps prioritizing markets where there is no inherent interest in hockey on the hopes that putting a team there will result in more hockey fans long term and the people in Canada will just keep being hockey fans regardless. So as a result you can have two teams in SoCal but not Southern Ontario?

Simultaneously Americans rooted against the Jays when they were in the World Series because they didn't want a Canadian team winning it. Many were against the NBA expanding to Canada. Toronto rarely gets mentioned as a potential NFL destination (no it won't hurt Buffalo. The people who go to Bills games from Ontario are people who don't travel to Toronto, just the same way as people in the Windsor area go to Tigers games instead of the Jays).

 

[Stumbledore]

There's something so hilariously sad about, of all the people, a Winnipegger screaming for the death of the Coyotes.

I must have missed that. (I'm old and it's summertime...)

Can you point me to that posting of a Winnipegger screaming for the death of the Coyotes, please?

Just the number of the post will be fine. Thanks.

 

[Lions67]

I must have missed that. (I'm old and it's summertime...)

Can you point me to that posting of a Winnipegger screaming for the death of the Coyotes, please?

Just the number of the post will be fine. Thanks.

I did say “ it’s time to put the dog down “
I stand by that statement 1000% percent.

 

[MeHateHe]

2--- What I hope just about everyone can agree on is that metro Phoenix is a "hobbled" market.

Good post overall, but I will quibble with this part.

Phoenix was a poorly developed market. You don't drop a hot dog stand in the middle of a vegan neighbourhood just because there's lots of people around. Hockey has certainly been around in Arizona for decades, but there was not the kind of clamouring for an NHL franchise that you would like to see before the Jets relocated. The NHL wanted out of Winnipeg, the team's ownership didn't have the wherewithal to keep them alive in Winnipeg and the league was salivating at another large US market. Et voila: the Phoenix Coyotes.

Every sports franchise will have its local detractors. No one will deny that there are a lot of hockey fans in Calgary, but the arena deal has pissed off a lot of people who would otherwise support the team. But as much as a publicly funded arena rankles, the local community got it done. Because they wanted the team. And if the current ownership wanted out, there would certainly be other well-heeled others in Calgary who would individually or collectively step forward to fill in the gap.

The fact is the mess over the last decade with Glendale and now Tempe and the team playing out of a small college rink and a rolling cast of sub-standard ownership... those things collectively suggest the market has not been fully and properly developed for NHL hockey. And that the bulk of the news about the team has been about their ownership and arena messes has only compounded their problems. Those problems have made it a higher hill to climb for the club to succeed locally. But I think the Coyotes should be relocated, and Phoenix go back to being an AHL city until they're ready to actually have all the pieces in place for the NHL to thrive. 'All the pieces' means a capable owner, an NHL-appropriate facility, and a passionate fanbase prepared to support the club through thick and thin.

 

[Salsero1]

This tells me you either didn't read or didn't seek to understand what I wrote in #6. Not that I blame you. You don't go to a messageboard to volunteer to read War and Peace. :-p

The best alternative way I can explain it is through the South Park episode "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson." In this episode, Stan's dad says something racially offensive on television and it becomes a big stir. Stan knows that his closest black friend Token won't like this and spends the whole episode thinking that he understands how Token feels and doesn't understand why Token won't accept his apology. Finally the episode ends with one of its two Aesops (as a SP episode is wont to do): the fact that Stan doesn't understand is in fact the point and Token just wants Stan to acknowledge that he could never understand. Once Stan admits this, Token is fine with him.

When you say that "many in the sunbelt do understand," trust me when I tell you: No. You don't. You don't understand. And that's OK. And just the same, I don't think someone who lives in a hockey-mad town could possibly understand how it would hurt a born-and-raised Phoenix hockey fan if the Coyotes left. Because they are two similar looking pains that are in fact very different.

So yes, I think some people have come on this board and likely appeared quite hateful to you. But you, without meaning to, come across as ignorant when you say that Sun Belt fans "understand where northern fans are coming from." You can understand it in writing. You can understand it logically. But you're not going to get it emotionally and you'll get a lot more mileage out of a conversation if you acknowledge that point first.

Of course this is also tied up in a whole "Why does America get to have all of Canada's toys and not vice-versa" argument that again.....I've lived on both sides of the border and I don't think one side can fully understand the other from an emotional perspective on that either. Our Prime Minister actually tweeted Taylor Swift because there are enough citizens worked up about the fact that she hasn't listed a tour date in Canada. You might not care about Taylor Swift and I don't particularly either but it's a great microsm for how Canadians often feel about popular culture writ large: Americans get the stuff they want, sometimes Canadians get it if Americans ever so much deign us worthy of it. It's not entirely irrational to imagine that some Canadians might want Americans to have the feeling of wanting something but not being able to have it.

And if you didn't like me projecting Taylor Swift not doing a concert as an aspersion on *ALL* Americans and think that's really dumb. Yes. Yes it is. But that's kind of the point. Particularly when I also say...

I just think it's despicable to wish fans of another team lose their team, especially when there's nothing material to gain from it besides their tears. Grow up. They're like a kid throwing a fit because Mom is making him share his toys.

Hockey or the NHL is nobody's identity, it's an entertainment product. If you make the mistake of adopting the consumption of a product as your identity, then prepare to have it shattered when said business aims to grow (as all smart businesses do). More people will get involved, and *gasp* you'll have to share it.

I take offense as the premise that the NHL or hockey in general would be more popular, profitable, and more successful than it's ever been if it just abandoned 80% of the continental US. That's not reality, it's just xenophobia.

You make a good point about the loss of a team in Winnipeg vs Arizona. Before Tom Dundon bought the Canes, the threat of Kormanos selling to Quebec felt very real regardless if it ever was. Seeing how Thrashers fans were treated upon losing their team gave us all a preview of what we would have been in for if we lost our team (or if the Yotes leave). Their team was gone, their ownership group had poisoned the market so badly that I totally believe your friend's story that their coworkers didn't care, there was nothing they could have done to keep the team, and if they turned to the larger hockey universe for some compassion or sympathy, they got the exact opposite. It was gross, and for all their whining and moaning at least Winnipeg had a shoulder to cry on for however many years. Thrashers fans were thrown out, told to never come back, and had the door locked behind them.

 

[Voight]

A) apologies for any hyperbole, which I hate but still accidentally resort to.

B) Failed Markets don't exist... "a number of markets which the NHL has entered and the team has failed there" includes TEAMS that failed, but replacement teams coming back like Minnesota, Bay Area/San Jose, New York/New Jersey, Colorado and Winnipeg; And God willing Quebec City.

Saying "Markets fail" is a cop out. Be consistent. The people who LIKE saying Atlanta and Phoenix are "failed markets" would never admit that Winnipeg and Quebec are "Failed markets."

I'm consistent. And that's why I lashed out at someone saying I was making "excuses." Winnipeg, Quebec City and Minnesota didn't "fail" as markets. They lacked modern arenas. That's circumstance. With new arenas, Winnipeg and Minnesota are still great markets, and QC will be again hopefully.

Be consistent in your argument. Define a failed market for me please. What metrics constitute a failed market?

If your metrics for a failed market work, they will apply and work for EVERY former NHL franchise incantation. There is legitimately nothing that works for the evidence/stats we have unless you get ultra-literal with non-number arguments. It's objectively impossible.

Quebec/Winnipeg arguably aren't failed markets. Yes, their teams did move but a lot of that had to do with the economy & the Canadian dollar taking a beating.

 

[BMN]

I just think it's despicable to wish fans of another team lose their team, especially when there's nothing material to gain from it besides their tears.

That's completely fair. I'm not even asking you to change that opinion. But I am asking you to acknowledge why someone might act that way besides "They're evvvvvvvviiiiiilllllllllllll and meanie poo-poo!!!!!!"

Grow up. They're like a kid throwing a fit because Mom is making him share his toys.
Here it is. Here it is right here. The "condescending-and-don't-intend-it-or even-know-they're-doing-it" Americanism I know all so well. Especially when you follow it up with...

Hockey or the NHL is nobody's identity, it's an entertainment product.
You live in Raleigh or near it, yes? How's about you drive the 3-4 hours to Columbia on Gamecock GameDay and tell them "football isn't your identity, it's just an entertainment product." See what a warm reception you get.

If you make the mistake of adopting the consumption of a product as your identity, then prepare to have it shattered when said business aims to grow (as all smart businesses do). More people will get involved, and *gasp* you'll have to share it.
But businesses that grow also close locations all the time when they realize the limitations of their outreach. That is also part of business. So if the Canes did relocate, you're not exactly practicing what you preach by taking it personally either. By your own logic, it'd be nothing to get worked up about.

It's a lot like "feelings for me, but not for thee."

I take offense as the premise that the NHL or hockey in general would be more popular, profitable, and more successful than it's ever been if it just abandoned 80% of the continental US. That's not reality, it's just xenophobia.
But if the Hurricanes had left Raleigh, the southeast would still have hockey and still have several NHL teams (and to be fair, this is equally true of Canada as a nation writ large but that would ignore that a lot of Quebecers don't necessarily relate as Canadians...but I'm not stepping into that wasp's nest). Xenophobic is being a tad dramatic here and if I wanted to (I don't), I could argue it's farrrrrrrrrrrrr more xenophobic to not want a NHL team in a francophone city while there are already 31 teams in anglophone cities and one team in a bilingual one.

Look it as this way and perhaps you'll understand your unintended condescension:

1--- hockey fans in Quebec City would like a team,
2--- the message they frequently receive is "the league will never expand to your city because your prospective owners won't be able to afford the expansion fee,"
3--- "you *might* get a team one day but it'll have to be a relocated one."
4--- So you'd rather have a team that's yours from the start but it's not an option.

By telling that fan they're mean because they want your team, you're inadvertently saying "Your city shouldn't aspire to anything. Why can't you accept that you have less than me and like it? It's stupid that you actually want anything for your podunk town. Why can't you just know your role and acquiesce and furthermore do it with a big ol' smile on your face?"

But then they're the mean ones when that's the message you're giving off.

And I know that's not the direct message you're giving. And yeah I laid it on real real thick. But it's how it comes across. And as a wise man once told me, "if enough people tell you that's how you're coming across, you don't have a say in telling them they're wrong."

Since this thread is about the Coyotes, I'll just say: I don't think one is evil or "despicable" for wanting the Coyotes to relocate. I *do* think it's a bit dickish to lord that opinion over the fans. If a burger stand closed due to too few customers, I wouldn't berate the actual customers they had. If anything: I'd laud them for being the people that appreciated the product. I might lord it over a random Joe & Jane Q Citizen in said town and tell them "you don't appreciate what you have."

And to aqib's point, that armour will have to stay up a while because the Yotes are playing 2023-24 in Mullett. I'm sure there will be more twists and turns until a new arena is decided upon, whether or not said arena is in Arizona. And no matter whether the team stays or goes, someone will be hurting. Just the nature of the beast.

 

[Salsero1]

@BMN If not having an NHL team in your town destroys your whole life, that's a YOU problem, not an NHL problem. If you want a chance at a non-miserable life, focus on what's in your locus of control. There's a whole big world out there.

If the Canes did leave, I would be 100% fine. I certainly wouldn't be wasting time antagonizing other fans for decades. I have a life outside of hockey.

You're whole premise is bogus. If fans in Quebec or Winnipeg bully and taunt fans of a vulnerable team they can't turn around and cry victim if they get called out for what they are. They were not polite or considerate when they were telling us how much better they are than us and how they would take care of the team, they were flat out mean and enjoying it.

 

[BMN]

If the Canes did leave, I would be 100% fine. I certainly wouldn't be wasting time antagonizing other fans for decades. I have a life outside of hockey.

You're whole premise is bogus. If fans in Quebec or Winnipeg bully and taunt fans of a vulnerable team they can't turn around and cry victim if they get called out for what they are. They were not polite or considerate when they were telling us how much better they are than us and how they would take care of the team, they were flat out mean and enjoying it.

But you're trying to have it both ways.

If "your life would go on" with the Canes leaving such as you allege, the meanness of Winnipeg/Quebec City fans wouldn't get to you like it does. You wouldn't be calling them "despicable." Jerkish maybe. But you're borderline accusing them of being the Taliban for being gleeful at your potential hurt.....only to then turn around and say "ah, actually it wouldn't hurt that much."

So which is it?

 

[Salsero1]

But you're trying to have it both ways.

If "your life would go on" with the Canes leaving such as you allege, the meanness of Winnipeg/Quebec City fans wouldn't get to you like it does. You wouldn't be calling them "despicable." Jerkish maybe. But you're borderline accusing them of being the Taliban for being gleeful at your potential hurt.....only to then turn around and say "ah, actually it wouldn't hurt that much."

So which is it?

Because hockey is important to me, I don't want to lose it. It would hurt badly to lose the team I love. It would also hurt to know that the greater hockey community is glad were gone and will talk at length about how unworthy we were and how crappy of fans we were. I wouldn't have any option other than disengage and move on. We're already unwelcome to many. If I wanted to keep my sanity I would need to leave. Nobody would care about how bad we hurt, they'd rub it in. The media won't write all the wistful nostalgic articles, we would only be brought up to make fun of. That is something the relocationistas don't understand.

 

[BMN]

So we're in agreement that it doesn't make one a bad person for caring about hockey. To which you can address......

Look it as this way and perhaps you'll understand your unintended condescension:

1--- hockey fans in Quebec City would like a team,
2--- the message they frequently receive is "the league will never expand to your city because your prospective owners won't be able to afford the expansion fee,"
3--- "you *might* get a team one day but it'll have to be a relocated one."
4--- So you'd rather have a team that's yours from the start but it's not an option.

By telling that fan they're mean because they want your team, you're inadvertently saying "Your city shouldn't aspire to anything. Why can't you accept that you have less than me and like it? It's stupid that you actually want anything for your podunk town. Why can't you just know your role and acquiesce and furthermore do it with a big ol' smile on your face?"

But then they're the mean ones when that's the message you're giving off.

And I know that's not the direct message you're giving. And yeah I laid it on real real thick. But it's how it comes across. And as a wise man once told me, "if enough people tell you that's how you're coming across, you don't have a say in telling them they're wrong."

 

[Stumbledore]

I did say “ it’s time to put the dog down “
I stand by that statement 1000% percent.

So, then stop commenting, especially on posts that didn't reply to you.

I asked Takuto to show me the post he claims to have seen of a "Winnipegger screaming for the death of the Coyotoes". Why did YOU have to interject if you're standing a thousand percent behind your statement?

 

[Salsero1]

So we're in agreement that it doesn't make one a bad person for caring about hockey. To which you can address......

It makes you a bad person to enjoy someone else's hurt and loss. I'm putting this as simply as I can, then I'm outta here. You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of. It's sounds like you're denying us of our feelings.

One group of people has adopted a sport and have acted as ambassadors to their greater communities in fostering a local connection and passion for it, despite the environment not being what you would expect. It takes a lot of effort to be a hockey fan in these places. Due to some very deep rooted insecurities of the people from the sports ancestral home, the newer fans are derided, looked down upon, and find themselves specifically targeted as candidates to be kicked out when there are natural dips in engagement. They are deemed less than and not worthy of participation. These younger fanbases just want to be a part of the game and be accepted. They know that their hypothetical removal from the NHL would be celebrated. Due to making the effort to understand and appreciate hockey, they are disliked by the insecure old fanbases. We just want to be here.

The other group, due to their insecurities and fragile sense of identity take offense at outsiders becoming involved in "their" world and take any and every opportunity to spit in the face of the people who love and appreciate the same game they do. They seem very upset that we have something in common. This leads to a desire to take it back and kick out as many new fanbases as possible. Some of these people could tangibly benefit from a relocation but many wouldn't because they either already have a team or live in a place that couldn't house one. Thus attitude is objectively malicious. The only thing that many of these people want is southern fans to be gone. And rather than direct their energy to something they can control and have a fulfilling life regardless, some of these traditional fans choose to stoke their anger and resentment for decades at a time.

 

[PainForShane]

@BMN @Salsero1

I don't want to actively participate in your convo (which seems like it's over anyway) but to me it sounds like it's around how empathy relates to behavior.

As humans, most of us have empathy, at least a little. And in theory it'd be nice if we could always show empathy to everyone.

But, how much empathy should we show to ppl who go out of their way to be mean? BMN's saying we should have empathy to everyone incl those who are mean -- after all there's likely a reason behind the emotions, and that reason deserves respect. Salsero says the mean ppl are showing lack of empathy themselves by not respect fans of a struggling team that has nothing to do with them, and that's where the problem is.

Both of you are right, but it's not that simple. Personally all things considered I generally come down much more on the side of Salsero. But neither of you is fully wrong and I doubt you're going to change each others' minds anytime soon.

Salsero thx for your contributions here, best wishes going fwd

 

[MNNumbers]

If anyone wants it simplified....here you go.

The future of the Coyotes does not depend on emotion, or on empathy. It depends on money. Specifically, if Meruelo is able to find an arena deal in the Valley that allows him to make money on the team.

Obviously the fanbase has something to do with that. But each individual fan does not. Every Coyote fan is a good fan. Perhaps it could be said that there are not enough of them (although we don't know that).

The mistake that is commonly made here is in connecting "the market" with each individual fan. No individual fan should be offended at the idea that there aren't enough fans - it's not an insult to an individual fan. Nor should anyone from another market insult or disrespect any individual fan because there aren't enough of them in a market.

And, ultimately, it is going to be Meruelo who decides if there are sufficient fans in the market. That's not my call, nor anyone else's. The most I could say is....."If I owned the team, knowing only what I know right now......."

 

[Stumbledore]

The mistake that is commonly made here is in connecting "the market" with each individual fan. No individual fan should be offended at the idea that there aren't enough fans - it's not an insult to an individual fan. Nor should anyone from another market insult or disrespect any individual fan because there aren't enough of them in a market.

Unless it's Quebec City, apparently. No shortage of insults and disrespect shown to fans in Quebec City.

 

[MNNumbers]

Unless it's Quebec City, apparently. No shortage of insults and disrespect shown to fans in Quebec City.

I don't think I've seen anything against a particular QC fan. I have seen comments like:
- Not enough corporate support because it's a gov't city
- Potential problems with players because of the French language
- Quebecor owns the management rights to the arena, and isn't able to pay for a team
- Winnipeg is also a small-ish Canadian city, and after 11-12 years they aren't doing so well. Why would QC be different?

These seem reasonable points for discussion.

 

[Fatass]

I don't think I've seen anything against a particular QC fan. I have seen comments like:
- Not enough corporate support because it's a gov't city
- Potential problems with players because of the French language
- Quebecor owns the management rights to the arena, and isn't able to pay for a team
- Winnipeg is also a small-ish Canadian city, and after 11-12 years they aren't doing so well. Why would QC be different?

These seem reasonable points for discussion.

The nhl will almost certainly have weak sisters. Arizona is the weakest. But seems to have an owner who is committed financially to keeping his club local.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

So, then stop commenting, especially on posts that didn't reply to you.

I asked Takuto to show me the post he claims to have seen of a "Winnipegger screaming for the death of the Coyotoes". Why did YOU have to interject if you're standing a thousand percent behind your statement?

...because he's the very person I was referencing? He even straight up admitted what he said that made me say those exact words you put in quotes.

 

[jonathan613]

Ever been to the Winnipeg Arena ??
Lots of obstructed seats there as well. Yet we went and paid top dollar ( for that time ) PHX was basically giving them away, which again as I said before I understand the reasoning. Still didn’t make a difference.
Revenue streams.. ok I will concede that one as I don’t know the particulars there.
But!!… all those fans did not follow the team to Glendale in a brand new state of the art facility. All streams going to tue team, rent free when the city had a gun to their head by the league to keep them only to screw the city over and basically get evicted.
That is not something that screams stability now does it. No, it does the opposite.
Back to PHX for a second. Why won’t they build the new arena there now?
Because it isn’t feasible. Bottom line.
And that is another fail on top of many fails in Arizona.

Just looking at this. Please keep in mind that the winnipeg jets now have VERY rich ownership who can do a lot that ownership groups from the coyotes were not able to do. When the coyotes played in the first decade in AZ , arenas were full of fans despite obstructions. What traditionalists do not get is that it takes time for hockey to grow in the area. AZ state now has D1 hockey and the AHL team is now in Tucson. (AZ is one of only 6 states that has the NHL, AHL and D1 college hockey) Things are happening in AZ when it comes to the sport of hockey whether you care to admit it or not. Good ownership would have prevented the original jets team from leaving in the 90's, and it was a good ownership that good winnipeg back a team. As much as you do not want to hear it, it is not just about markets but ownership groups. I believe for example that the washington commanders would have sold for a lot more than 6 billion if the Snyders were good owners. No one says washington is a bad football city-I grew up in the metro area during the super bowl years. But the team had to constantly remove seats from FED ex field as less fans went to games. See also donald sterling and the clippers. Look at what has happened in vegas with a good plan and ownership group regarding the golden knights. I will have a hard time believe phx is so much worse than vegas. I am sorry to tell people this, but ownership matters. An arena in tempe/scottsdale/mesa would be very feasible in y opinion. But someone needs to pay for it to get built which requires richer ownership than what the coyotes currently have-i.e. a vegas type owner who can finance everything privately. Ok-i am done,

 

[MeHateHe]

I am sorry to tell people this, but ownership matters.

To misquote Oscar Wilde, to have one bad owner may be misfortune, but to have several seems like carelessness. If the only people willling to put up money to own in an market are a bunch of yahoos and grifters, then that reflects poorly on the market.