CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

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BKIslandersFan

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To which I described the conundrum of Quebecers specifically: many believe a relocated team is their ONLY option. But @Salsero1 didn't retract or modify anything they said: ALL relocationists and ESPECIALLY Quebecers, for whom they've admitted they have a special disdain for, are xenophobic for wanting a NHL team even tho a relocated one is possibly the only way that happens. I then described just how that comes across but they completely ignored that point (maybe because it was uncomfortable to acknowledge, who knows, I'm speculating). Is it because southern fans are as pure as the driven snow and "relocationists" are, down to every person, "despicable?"


This board in a nutshell. 🤣
To which I described the conundrum of Quebecers specifically: many believe a relocated team is their ONLY option. But @Salsero1 didn't retract or modify anything they said: ALL relocationists and ESPECIALLY Quebecers, for whom they've admitted they have a special disdain for, are xenophobic for wanting a NHL team even tho a relocated one is possibly the only way that happens. I then described just how that comes across but they completely ignored that point (maybe because it was uncomfortable to acknowledge, who knows, I'm speculating). Is it because southern fans are as pure as the driven snow and "relocationists" are, down to every person, "despicable?"


This board in a nutshell. 🤣
He didn’t say anyone who wants QC team is xenophobe. We gonna keep lying or what?
 

Headshot77

Bad Photoshopper
Feb 15, 2015
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Hating a team is one thing. Wishing for that team's demise, and the misery inflicted upon you to be inflicted upon that other fanbase, is quite another.
I mean, I'm wishing for the Vegas A's demise and I don't even live in Oakland. Sports fandom breeds irrational emotional reactions. Comes with the territory.
 
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BKIslandersFan

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I literally f__ing quoted it. Need me to draw a diagram?
I saw and it didn’t say anything like what you were saying. I don’t think disagreeing with Canadian nationalists that want to relocate every southern US teams to Canada equals not wanting QC to ever have a team and calling QC fans xenophobic.
 

BMN

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I saw and it didn’t say anything like what you were saying. I don’t think disagreeing with Canadian nationalists that want to relocate every southern US teams to Canada equals not wanting QC to ever have a team and calling QC fans xenophobic.
I even bolded the word xenophobia. Reading is harder than I ever imagined. (Whatver further edits I tried to provide here, it wouldn't go through. I dunno if there's some sort of phrase I used that would have triggered it (especially since "xenophobia" didn't) so I'll leave it at that).

Re: the Yotes, nothing new going on but maybe the (literal) fortunes of the DBacks can provide some inspiration?:

 
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BKIslandersFan

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I even bolded the word xenophobia. Reading is harder than I ever imagined. (Whatver further edits I tried to provide here, it wouldn't go through. I dunno if there's some sort of phrase I used that would have triggered it (especially since "xenophobia" didn't) so I'll leave it at that).

Re: the Yotes, nothing new going on but maybe the (literal) fortunes of the DBacks can provide some inspiration?:

Bro, maybe you should read the post you highlighted. Nowhere does he say people who want team in QC are xenophobic. Unless you are implying every QC fan want every team from south moving to Canada for whatever reason.
 

BMN

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Bro, maybe you should read the post you highlighted. Nowhere does he say people who want team in QC are xenophobic. Unless you are implying every QC fan want every team from south moving to Canada for whatever reason.
*sigh* I'm sorry I assumed you followed the thread that preceded the comment.

I'll say this: passive aggressively implying something so that you can double back and say "well I wasn't REALLY saying Quebecers are xenophobic" is way more insidious than saying it directly. The whole exchange was triggered by "Quebec fans can go pound sand." And designed to imply that if you're a "relocationist," you're with the xenophobes.

The whole point I made about "how things come across trumps intention" was wasted on some, I see, so clearly I didn't make it very well. I'll work on my argumentation for some unspecified future time I'm bored.
 

BKIslandersFan

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*sigh* I'm sorry I assumed you followed the thread that preceded the comment.

I'll say this: passive aggressively implying something so that you can double back and say "well I wasn't REALLY saying Quebecers are xenophobic" is way more insidious than saying it directly. The whole exchange was triggered by "Quebec fans can go pound sand." And designed to imply that if you're a "relocationist," you're with the xenophobes.

The whole point I made about "how things come across trumps intention" was wasted on some, I see, so clearly I didn't make it very well. I'll work on my argumentation for some unspecified future time I'm bored.

I saw the context of his post responding to this and I am now even more sure he has not said people who want QC team is xenophobic.

This is just ignorant and condescending post. As most of your posts are. You do realize relocation of sports franchises is a North American phenomenon and people in what we call non traditional markets been losing their sports teams to other cities right?

This tells me you either didn't read or didn't seek to understand what I wrote in #6. Not that I blame you. You don't go to a messageboard to volunteer to read War and Peace. :-p

The best alternative way I can explain it is through the South Park episode "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson." In this episode, Stan's dad says something racially offensive on television and it becomes a big stir. Stan knows that his closest black friend Token won't like this and spends the whole episode thinking that he understands how Token feels and doesn't understand why Token won't accept his apology. Finally the episode ends with one of its two Aesops (as a SP episode is wont to do): the fact that Stan doesn't understand is in fact the point and Token just wants Stan to acknowledge that he could never understand. Once Stan admits this, Token is fine with him.

When you say that "many in the sunbelt do understand," trust me when I tell you: No. You don't. You don't understand. And that's OK. And just the same, I don't think someone who lives in a hockey-mad town could possibly understand how it would hurt a born-and-raised Phoenix hockey fan if the Coyotes left. Because they are two similar looking pains that are in fact very different.

So yes, I think some people have come on this board and likely appeared quite hateful to you. But you, without meaning to, come across as ignorant when you say that Sun Belt fans "understand where northern fans are coming from." You can understand it in writing. You can understand it logically. But you're not going to get it emotionally and you'll get a lot more mileage out of a conversation if you acknowledge that point first.

Of course this is also tied up in a whole "Why does America get to have all of Canada's toys and not vice-versa" argument that again.....I've lived on both sides of the border and I don't think one side can fully understand the other from an emotional perspective on that either. Our Prime Minister actually tweeted Taylor Swift because there are enough citizens worked up about the fact that she hasn't listed a tour date in Canada. You might not care about Taylor Swift and I don't particularly either but it's a great microsm for how Canadians often feel about popular culture writ large: Americans get the stuff they want, sometimes Canadians get it if Americans ever so much deign us worthy of it. It's not entirely irrational to imagine that some Canadians might want Americans to have the feeling of wanting something but not being able to have it.

And if you didn't like me projecting Taylor Swift not doing a concert as an aspersion on *ALL* Americans and think that's really dumb. Yes. Yes it is. But that's kind of the point. Particularly when I also say...
 

BMN

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This is just ignorant and condescending post. As most of your posts are. You do realize relocation of sports franchises is a North American phenomenon and people in what we call non traditional markets have been losing their sports teams to other cities right?
1--- To my point, if it comes across condescending, I suppose it is.
2--- I typed pretty exhaustively about what I experienced in Atlanta. Which I'm now assuming you didn't read.

Again, back to the Coyotes....Diamondbacks.... and gamebooks and the like.
 

BKIslandersFan

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1--- To my point, if it comes across condescending, I suppose it is.
2--- I typed pretty exhaustively about what I experienced in Atlanta. Which I'm now assuming you didn't read.

Again, back to the Coyotes....Diamondbacks.... and gamebooks and the like.
Then you are wasting your time because they offer nothing of value and is condescending and ignorant.

I have a life so I won’t read your pointless essays. It won’t disprove my original point that you are wrong.
 
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Tawnos

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Sep 10, 2004
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I really don't know how Meruelo can make a profit on a 100% privately funded scenario here, and the NHL might not go to bat for him for that kind of solution because it weakens their case to extort and exploit future cities.

They don't have a lot of realistic options that I can tell. They might make it work, they might not.

It depends a little on what you mean by profit. If Meruelo were to get the Coyotes into a stable situation, it's not hard to imagine them having a franchise valuation in a sale of $600m. Forbes has them at $450m as is, and their tendency the last several years has been to undervalue compared to what actually happens when teams are sold. They undershot both the Pens and Sens.

Meruelo bought the team for $300m. If he stabilizes them, he's probably doubling his money on the team when he sells. I don't remember off the top of my head what the cost of just arena component of the numbers we saw for TED were, but any sale of the team probably comes with a sale of the arena too. Add that on top of the Coyotes operating losses having been curtailed over the last few years, if not making the team profitable, and I think it's more likely that a 100% privately funded arena would work out well for Meruelo than not. That's even more true if he gets to build a district around it too. Which isn't to say that they won't try for some help (not that there was all that much help in TED).

It's not uncommon that people look at the team and see yearly losses and think it's a terrible situation, but most sports teams purchases are only a little about the year-to-year and mostly about the way valuation increases. Meruelo doesn't care about 5 or maybe even 10 years of losses if he thinks that an ultimate sale of the team at a far future date is going to make him a bunch of money. So long as he has the resources to keep it going (and seemingly, he does), then yearly losses are largely a non-issue.
 
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Stumbledore

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Nope. Thread has been treading water for a while now, verging off into all sorts of different tangents.
Here's a very personal tangent.

Why the hell does it always get so hot in Arizona when I have to visit there?

The place is ridiculously uncomfortable even during a normal summer but if I agree to head down there for a few days, the heat wave rolls in. Every single bloody time.

The whole universe is picking on me. Again.
 

BMN

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Here's a very personal tangent.

Why the hell does it always get so hot in Arizona when I have to visit there?

The place is ridiculously uncomfortable even during a normal summer but if I agree to head down there for a few days, the heat wave rolls in. Every single bloody time.

The whole universe is picking on me. Again.
I'm sure I'm not the first to post this on this board but the response to this tangent seems obligatory :-P

 

Shwan

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Jan 30, 2019
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Re: the Yotes, nothing new going on but maybe the (literal) fortunes of the DBacks can provide some inspiration?:


I would definitely wager we're the most fairweather fans in the nation.

Last year I took my kiddos to a weekday game against the pirates and we had the entire section to ourselves. This year I picked the weekday game against the Rays and holy crap night and day.

I really hope Maricopa County works it out with the team over Chase Field. I'm clearly biased and It's an old ballpark but I think it's a beautiful place and with upgrades can make it amazing again.

If the Coyotes can afford to win consistently (if they get a new arena here) they'd probably be fine. I remember that " Scratchin' and Clawin' " stretch after the Doan retirement game when the team was hot and the home games were pretty filled. I was making the drive from Mesa on weeknights because it was fun.
 

BMN

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I really hope Maricopa County works it out with the team over Chase Field. I'm clearly biased and It's an old ballpark but I think it's a beautiful place and with upgrades can make it amazing again.
I'm a big believer in renovating over replacing even though that's not in vogue. I get that no one wants their pro sports team to play in a dump but I feel like going replace instead of reno, you're denying yourself to build a folklore around your building. That's something the NHL needs more of, IMO.

It's one of the reasons it's a shame Glendale went the way it did. Granted, I've never seen it but everytime anyone complained about the Glendale situation, it seemed like one point of agreement everyone had was that the arena was nice & could stand the test of time.....if only it hadn't been built where it was by whom it was built by for the city gov't for which it was built...
 

Bucky_Hoyt

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Add that on top of the Coyotes operating losses having been curtailed over the last few years, if not making the team profitable, and I think it's more likely that a 100% privately funded arena would work out well for Meruelo than not.

Making less losses isn't the same as being profitable. Estimates from a cursory Google search are at least 10m in losses this year. Yes it is better than the 20-30m a year the team was losing but still not good.
 
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Bucky_Hoyt

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I would definitely wager we're the most fairweather fans in the nation.

Last year I took my kiddos to a weekday game against the pirates and we had the entire section to ourselves. This year I picked the weekday game against the Rays and holy crap night and day.

I really hope Maricopa County works it out with the team over Chase Field. I'm clearly biased and It's an old ballpark but I think it's a beautiful place and with upgrades can make it amazing again.

If the Coyotes can afford to win consistently (if they get a new arena here) they'd probably be fine. I remember that " Scratchin' and Clawin' " stretch after the Doan retirement game when the team was hot and the home games were pretty filled. I was making the drive from Mesa on weeknights because it was fun.
The sad thing is that people are now believing a 20-something year old building is considered "old". I guess we have Atlanta to thank for that.

Yes, Chase was built with too high a capacity but hopefully any renos go the Guardians, Rockies, Yankees, White Sox route and remove those excess seats. Great location and fully functional are really really hard to pass up these days.
 
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ColinM

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I mean, I'm wishing for the Vegas A's demise and I don't even live in Oakland. Sports fandom breeds irrational emotional reactions. Comes with the territory.

True. Back in 2000 I was on an Expos forum which perpetually referred to Washington Baseball Fans as vultures.

At the end of the day everyone wanted the same thing, a team in their home market.
 

Tawnos

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Making less losses isn't the same as being profitable. Estimates from a cursory Google search are at least 10m in losses this year. Yes it is better than the 20-30m a year the team was losing but still not good.

I just did a cursory Google search and couldn't find anything to corroborate what you're saying for this past year or the year before. Everything I've found is citing information from years ago.

Could you link me to something you found?

It also just completely misses the point of my whole post by taking that one part out of context. If Meruelo can handle $10m in operating losses for 15 years and then sell the team for $600m at that point, he still made $150m in profit. So, in the end, it was still profitable for him.
 
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