CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[jonathan613]

To misquote Oscar Wilde, to have one bad owner may be misfortune, but to have several seems like carelessness. If the only people willling to put up money to own in an market are a bunch of yahoos and grifters, then that reflects poorly on the market.

Noted. I will simply say to you and lions that it has been over 10 years that the coyotes have qualified for the playoffs in a non pandemic situation. During that whole time, the coyotes have routinely not spent money to the cap that other teams have. In my humble opinion, it is really hard to criticize a market if the team is not competitive, and fans constantly need to worry about relocation.

People do not remember , but there was a time in the early 80's that my then hometown team - the Washington capitals-were threatening relocation. They started off by having the worst season in NHL history as an expansion team. It did not get better till Langway arrived. People said then that DC was a "bad" market. That is not being said now.

Minimally competent ownership would at least try to spend money to field a competitive on ice product.

I get it that i am not likely to convince either of you. I am not sure what more I can say for now, so i will stand down.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

1) I can't speak for "people" and what they like to say, but Winnipeg and Quebec were certainly failed markets. They had a team, the market couldn't support it, so the team left.

I appreciate the consistency.

Unless it's Quebec City, apparently. No shortage of insults and disrespect shown to fans in Quebec City.

Where's the insults? I can't find one. And as an Islanders fan I have absolute right to fight back against QC fans btw.

 

[Shwan]

People do not remember , but there was a time in the early 80's that my then hometown team - the Washington capitals-were threatening relocation. They started off by having the worst season in NHL history as an expansion team. It did not get better till Langway arrived. People said then that DC was a "bad" market. That is not being said now.

It took only one of these scares to get Caps fans on board for life. The save the Caps campaign was very effective.

Pollin’s demands: Prince George’s County must cut the amusement taxes the Caps paid by 95 percent; the rent the Caps paid to Capital Centre must be reduced by two-thirds (Pollin also owned the building, so, no surprise, this demand was met quickly); at least 7,500 season tickets must be sold; and the first 10 home games of the 1982-’83 season must be sellouts.

The Washington Post not only ran editorials supporting the cause but also guaranteed to buy all unsold tickets for one of the Caps’ first 10 home games. Nine other businesses matched the Post’s pledge, thereby meeting Pollin’s demand and setting a team record for consecutive sellouts.

Mehlman personally lobbied the Prince George’s County Council to give Pollin the tax break he wanted. He also wrote testimony for other fans and businessmen to present to county officials at hearings about the taxpayers’ bailout of Pollin.

The council quickly voted to suspend the entertainment tax.

But he backed down on his threat to move when a local investment group, headed by Dick Patrick, agreed to purchase a partial ownership stake in the Capitals that would leave Pollin in charge. He quickly hired GM David Poile, who engineered the 1982 trade with the Montreal Canadiens for Rod Langway that turned the Capitals into a respectable squad overnight. The team made the playoffs for the first time the season after the Save the Caps campaign. By the end of the decade, the Capital Centre was one of the loudest buildings in the league every spring.

What do you think would happen if Meruelo made a similar demand?

 

[jonathan613]

It took only one of these scares to get Caps fans on board for life. The save the Caps campaign was very effective.






What do you think would happen if Meruelo made a similar demand?

Some of these things reinforce my point. Polin owned the building as well as the then bullets. So he as an owner had leverage the coyotes never had. Can not speak about the Post, but for a long time Glendale did give the coyotes some breaks. and buildings were full in the late 90's even in an arena with bad configuration for hockey. Lastly, the market did not become stable until the caps entered the latter part of the eighties. People were not attending games when the team was bad in the seventies-not until gartner especially stoked the franchise. Yes meruelo is in my opinion not the owner to save this franchise and the answer would be no. but if a different more savvy owner made such a demand, then i would say the answer would be yes.

I will ask you a reverse hypothetical. If there was not a Dick Patrick to come in as new ownership -yes ownership- to save the team , and the team continued to play poorly through the eighties, do you think the caps would have left?

My point still remains that ownership matters

 

[Reaser]

it has been over 10 years that the coyotes have qualified for the playoffs in a non pandemic situation. During that whole time, the coyotes have routinely not spent money to the cap that other teams have. In my humble opinion, it is really hard to criticize a market if the team is not competitive, and fans constantly need to worry about relocation.

Local/regional TV viewership when the Yotes were competitive:

-After making the playoffs their first four seasons in AZ, market was excited and tuned in for 2000-01. Ironically the one season of their first six that they -barely- missed the playoffs set their best local viewership. Roughly 17,300 Households, which isn't a good number for peak/"max support of team."

-During a third straight playoff appearance in the year they finished first in their division and advanced all the way to the Conference Final, they delivered a 'whopping' (absolutely horrible) 7,210 HHs for the 2011-12 season.

-Like the 2000-01 "best" local viewership, it's the season after that sees the increase, added bonus that it was a lockout-shortened season which means local ratings shoot up through the roof across the league (similar happened for many teams during covid shortened season.) Yotes were no different, saw the increase after a Conference Final appearance season combined with the increase a 48-game shortened season helped produce, the Yotes blew up locally, all the way to 16,223 HHs in the 2012-13 season. Good for ranking 27th out of the then 30 teams in regional viewership.

 

[Shwan]

I will ask you a reverse hypothetical. If there was not a Dick Patrick to come in as new ownership -yes ownership- to save the team , and the team continued to play poorly through the eighties, do you think the caps would have left?

My point still remains that ownership matters

I'm not arguing ownership doesn't matter I 100% agree and I'd say Pollin probably would have sold the team if Dick Patrick didn't offer a minority stake on

What I'm saying is even though the Caps we're really bad, the city rallied when there was a threat of losing them. I would further say that what in a span of 30 days a new minority owner was found shows that there was inherit value still found in the franchise by many.

Meanwhile, If you start the clock at '09, as many others have pointed out, the *only* ownership groups that have stepped up for the Coyotes have been those trying to move the team and those trying to use the team as a bargaining chip for some other business endeavor.

It's telling. Just like it's telling the NHL is still "waiting for the investigation" to finish for the Coyotes' wife beater minority owner before they force him to sell his stake.

His wife told police that she and her husband had violent encounters on the night of March 22, and the affidavit said her injuries included a large bruise on her left thigh, a cut on her right thumb, bruises on both knees and both ankles, a red left cheek and two dried blood spots on her throat.

I can think of much smaller transgressions on more valuable teams that forced owners to sell on the spot.

 

[BMN]

Re: Quebec fans and "where's the insults?," we had someone just a few posts back insinuate that their wanting a team was xenophobic. So...y'know, there's that.

 

[BMN]

Re: the Yotes and ownership, I could be totally wrong but it seems like we've spiraled to the point where there has to be a solution that is 100% privately funded. Maybe even without the tax breaks to boot. It seems like there are always some civic officials interested but are there any ways they can do it in an available space where they won't have to first go through referendum?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Re: the Yotes and ownership, I could be totally wrong but it seems like we've spiraled to the point where there has to be a solution that is 100% privately funded. Maybe even without the tax breaks to boot. It seems like there are always some civic officials interested but are there any ways they can do it in an available space where they won't have to first go through referendum?

I really don't know how Meruelo can make a profit on a 100% privately funded scenario here, and the NHL might not go to bat for him for that kind of solution because it weakens their case to extort and exploit future cities.

They don't have a lot of realistic options that I can tell. They might make it work, they might not.

 

[paul-laus]

But you're trying to have it both ways.

If "your life would go on" with the Canes leaving such as you allege, the meanness of Winnipeg/Quebec City fans wouldn't get to you like it does. You wouldn't be calling them "despicable." Jerkish maybe. But you're borderline accusing them of being the Taliban for being gleeful at your potential hurt.....only to then turn around and say "ah, actually it wouldn't hurt that much."

So which is it?

Exaggerate much? Time to exercise some decorum and gain a semblance of the big picture scenario…

 

[jonathan613]

I'm not arguing ownership doesn't matter I 100% agree and I'd say Pollin probably would have sold the team if Dick Patrick didn't offer a minority stake on

What I'm saying is even though the Caps we're really bad, the city rallied when there was a threat of losing them. I would further say that what in a span of 30 days a new minority owner was found shows that there was inherit value still found in the franchise by many.

Meanwhile, If you start the clock at '09, as many others have pointed out, the *only* ownership groups that have stepped up for the Coyotes have been those trying to move the team and those trying to use the team as a bargaining chip for some other business endeavor.

It's telling. Just like it's telling the NHL is still "waiting for the investigation" to finish for the Coyotes' wife beater minority owner before they force him to sell his stake.



I can think of much smaller transgressions on more valuable teams that forced owners to sell on the spot.

Thank you for the response, I wonder what was different about DC compared to phoenix.

Local/regional TV viewership when the Yotes were competitive:

-After making the playoffs their first four seasons in AZ, market was excited and tuned in for 2000-01. Ironically the one season of their first six that they -barely- missed the playoffs set their best local viewership. Roughly 17,300 Households, which isn't a good number for peak/"max support of team."

-During a third straight playoff appearance in the year they finished first in their division and advanced all the way to the Conference Final, they delivered a 'whopping' (absolutely horrible) 7,210 HHs for the 2011-12 season.

-Like the 2000-01 "best" local viewership, it's the season after that sees the increase, added bonus that it was a lockout-shortened season which means local ratings shoot up through the roof across the league (similar happened for many teams during covid shortened season.) Yotes were no different, saw the increase after a Conference Final appearance season combined with the increase a 48-game shortened season helped produce, the Yotes blew up locally, all the way to 16,223 HHs in the 2012-13 season. Good for ranking 27th out of the then 30 teams in regional viewership.

Noted and a very fair point. I wonder if all the games were televised during that time.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Re: Quebec fans and "where's the insults?," we had someone just a few posts back insinuate that their wanting a team was xenophobic. So...y'know, there's that.

Where? This is a lie.

 

[KevFu]

Nobody likes to shit on Isles fans more than I do, & those numbers are definitive proof they are a bunch of front runners. The attendance numbers suck for both teams, but the Islanders have never been completely irrelevant within their community.

To be clear, I'm not one of those people who don't think hockey can work in the desert...I was a VGK STH for their 1st 3 seasons before moving back east. However, I am of the opinion it's the Coyotes brand that is too toxic for them to ever be taken seriously after the past 15 years.

Well, now we're just arguing for a completely different reason...

"Being a Front-Runner" and "NOT GIVING MONEY TO A INCOMPETENT OWNERSHIP" are two totally different things.

We can take PHX and NYI off the board and just look at the what happens to attendance when the word "bankruptcy" is even mentioned in other cities... like Dallas. Dallas has always been TOTALLY FINE/GOOD as an NHL market. They were involved in bankruptcy simply because Tom Hicks' holding company that owned the stars took debt to also buy Liverpool and re-organized the debt. Big drop in attendance solely because of headlines.

Look at the Penguins attendance during their bankruptcy headlines. Not good. The affect on attendance is horrific. But that doesn't matter because...

Still say it's weird when people use attendance as if that's the entire floor/ceiling of a fanbase.

COVID proves that attendance is not as significant as fans think to the financial health of a team. MLB played a 60-game season with NO FANS with practically zero repercussions. Toronto took BY FAR the biggest financial hit because they were the ONLY TEAM to have to spend additional tens of millions to upgrade a stadium to play in 2020... and they raised payroll coming out of COVID... BY A LOT. No belt tightening whatsoever.

Oh since you said "Fact" I guess that shuts this down the discussion. The rest of us should just log off now.

I didn't. I was flipping the "Fact/Truth" thing on the guy I quoted. I said it's NOT "Fact/Truth/100%/Fail.

Have you noticed no one has that there has never been any rumors about the Minnesota Wild? When the NHL expanded there no one said "why are you going to Minnesota?" In the last 20 years they have won as many playoff series as the Coyotes have. They are in a smaller metro area that also has NFL, NBA, and MLB team (that have been around longer), as well as a college that plays in a Power 5 Conference. They also have MLS. Their arena also has to compete for non-sports events with a more ideally located arena. So why are there no issues even rumored there? Because people there love hockey and its been demonstrated over the years.

I mean, if you're using Minnesota to try and say that Phoenix is a failed market, I really don't know what to tell you... the Wild replaced A TEAM THAT MOVED. So the Minnesota market didn't fail... they built a new arena and are totally fine as a market -- despite no deep playoff runs. Let's see a Phoenix Arena 9.7 miles from the center of the metro area and see what happens!

 

[KevFu]

Whew! A lot of the flaws of recycled HFBoards Coyotes debates just exploding in a series of posts hahah

Yeah, I kinda go ham when I day drink. Debate is fun, and it brought out your epic post. So zero regrets. I'm gonna edit a lot of that epic post down to keep my replies shorter...

1--- I agree with KevFu that I think the term "failed market" is stupid.
saying "the market failed" is lazy and reductive.

Yup! Thanks.

2--- What I hope just about everyone can agree on is that metro Phoenix is a "hobbled" market.
(The odd paradox in this is that while they've made the area worse as a market, the presence of the Coyotes has actually improved the area's ability to facilitate recreational play AKA the "grow the game" canard. So the biggest winner of the Coyotes venture has been USA Developmental).

Yes. 100%. Now imagine what would happen if there were grown up, hockey people running the Coyotes in an accessible NHL Arena in the market. If the presence of the Coyotes resulted in Connor McDavid... image what happens if they aren't a clown-car crashing into a dumpster fire?

3--- I re-assert that it's pointless to use 99.7% of players' statements of "I want to play here/I don't" as any commentary on a market, good or bad.

Oh, totally. I was just trying to make people who say "market failed" apply CIRCUMSTANCE to free agent signings so I could turn the tables on the long-running argument.

4--- Also agree with Reaser that the more worrying element of the Phoenix venture hasn't been attendance.

This is going to sound to our anti-PHX friends like an excuse, but the methodology of TV ratings have been problematic since we went from 13 to 40 channels in the 1980s. You can probably find my post from about 15 years ago where I broke down the math using Nielsen's press release about number of metered market TV boxes, and basically determined that if when Neilsen takes a box from one house to another every six months, moving from a Panthers fan to a non-Panthers fan cost them 15,000 viewers. I wrote that post BEFORE I met the only Nielsen rater I've ever met in my life... who agreed to do a test with me on Premier League soccer (since our soccer bar had a hook-up for TV ratings. My friend wants 3 weeks of Premier League at home, then came to the bar with us to watch Premier League... ratings went down like 17,500 viewers that week.

I hated the concept of local TV Ratings THEN (to rate 300 channels), and that was BEFORE the existence of Netflix and when DVR was first making in-roads.

4a--- "Traditionalist" fans tend to be preachy/judgy, for better or worse, about how "front of mind" a NHL team is in a non-traditional market.

The grand irony is that I AM A TRADITIONALIST. I want the Quebec Nordiques back. I wanted the Winnipeg Jets back and shouted obscenities of glee when True North casually said "the Winnipeg Jets select..." I want the Whalers back and the Wild to be the North Stars again. I hated six divisions. I hated renaming the divisions. I firmly believe that going to Southern Markets was a MONEY GRAB, not-well-thought out, and succeeded by accident.

The only difference between me NOW and other traditionalists is that I say "succeeded by accident" instead of not saying it succeeded. Grabbing money was what the NHL needed to do. They just executed it without planning it out at all.

5--- the NHL has inadvertently branded Arizona as "the market that the NHL treats differently than the other markets because either a-- it likes it more than the others or b-- it's the one thing they are too stubborn to 'admit they're wrong' about.'"

See, I'm gonna disagree here. I really DON'T think "the NHL" has treated the Coyotes any different than anyone else -- after a certain time period when Bettman stopped being the 'new' commissioner and starting using every tool in the toolbox. I think the commitment the NHL has shown Phoenix has just LASTED LONGER than any other commitment they've been forced to make; I.E. - They didn't need to go this route on the Island because they found Charles Wong, or in Pittsburgh because an arena got built.

The common denominator is TIME. Bettman knows he failed four cities in the 1990s. He's doing his best to prevent that from happening. Segues (Segways for anyone still reading but not linquistically inclined) nicely into...

6--- Re: "The kind of hatred that motivates the relocationistas shouldn't have any place in the game or this board" and the whole "why don't Winnipeg fans leave the Coyotes alone, they got a team back" question...it's a sticky wicket. I don't think people from Phoenix can properly understand the hurt that the Jets leaving had on the people living there. But then again, I also think the reverse is true.

"I'm not going to be able to explain to anyone at work why this hurts so much."

So does it hurt more for a person when the factory that makes the town's #1 beverage leaves town? Or does it hurt more for a person when the factory that makes their favourite beverage leaves before anyone in the town can catch on to it? You tell me.

So I don't think Arizona hockey fans are going to "get it" when a Winnipeger roots for your team to leave. I don't know if any of us (myself included) would get how it hurt their civic pride. (I suppose I can relate to a certain degree about how the loss of two teams and the near-loss of others hurt national pride). But Winnipegers are fooling themselves if they think you'll understand that hurt by your team leaving. Because they still live in a hockey culture that you don't and that you want to help foster where you live & for which you see great potential. They could never relate.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not a big fan of Bill Simmons, but he's totally nailed a couple things, and one of them is "When your team leaves, All Bets Are Off." As a totally outside party, I UNDERSTAND absolutely any viewpoint a fan has if their team was ripped away from them. There's no way to account for that: Hate the league, hate the team/owner, hate everyone and everything... but YOUR PLAYERS are somewhere else, so what do you do? That roster was YOUR GUYS last year... do I just STOP?" The Islanders had plenty of not really that serious relocation talk, but the situation without Charles Wong definitely had it on the table. I'm a Mets fan and not old enough for the Dodgers to leave Brooklyn or the Giants to leave New York... but my fan bases PARENTS are the former Dodgers/Giants fans.

To me, it's about EMPATHY. I feel for people who've been hurt by the business of hockey/sports; and that's why I'm absolutely a traditionalist, but also see that sports expansion hasn't failed and we can solve all of this by common sense expansion. Franchise histories should belong to cities, not one owner. The Cleveland Browns re-launch should be the precendent for how leagues should operate. I'm totally on board with QC getting the Coyotes at a discounted price, Colorado "returning" the Nordiques history and Phoenix guaranteed an expansion team once they get an NHL arena in a centrally located place and being owners of the Coyotes history 1997-2023/24/25.

I'm just not okay with "Screw 'em, market failed." I don't want anyone's soul ripped out. I'm a Kantian.

Geez, I've made long posts before but I outdid myself on this one. Apologies or alternately congratulations to anyone who actually made it through all that.

It was long, but every word worth reading. And as one of this place's most prolific word-count jerks, don't sweat it. I'm sure I've made longer.

 

[Reaser]

This is going to sound to our anti-PHX friends like an excuse, but the methodology of TV ratings have been problematic since we went from 13 to 40 channels in the 1980s. You can probably find my post from about 15 years ago where I broke down the math using Nielsen's press release about number of metered market TV boxes, and basically determined that if when Neilsen takes a box from one house to another every six months, moving from a Panthers fan to a non-Panthers fan cost them 15,000 viewers. I wrote that post BEFORE I met the only Nielsen rater I've ever met in my life... who agreed to do a test with me on Premier League soccer (since our soccer bar had a hook-up for TV ratings. My friend wants 3 weeks of Premier League at home, then came to the bar with us to watch Premier League... ratings went down like 17,500 viewers that week.

I hated the concept of local TV Ratings THEN (to rate 300 channels), and that was BEFORE the existence of Netflix and when DVR was first making in-roads.

I'm not anti-Phoenix. I lived there for a year when I was a JUCO football QB (Go Bears!). I was responding to all your examples using attendance as if that's the floor/ceiling of a local fanbase. You see floor/ceiling more via local/regional TV viewership. That more shows the local fanbase that exists; when things are good, bad or average.

I think you think you get the methodology more than you actually do but that's irrelevant because we're not dealing with down-to-the-person exact numbers (similar to various leagues/teams attendance #s you frequently post, those are not exact people-in-stadium #s, obviously) we're dealing with a measurement. So regardless of what you think of the number, the methodology is the same and standard. So it gives an accurate measurement and we can use that to see who watches their team and who doesn't.

There's no bias against the Yotes (or the Panthers for that matter,) methodology is same in Phoenix as it is in Las Vegas as it is in Seattle, etc..

So we get a list, in order, and for some teams at/near the bottom of the list we get small numbers, over and over (not a one day this guy I met tested my Nielsen theory and him and just him not watching cost 17k viewers) for multiple years, year-after-year we see where teams rank and the distance between the teams in those rankings.

Boston with the most HHs & viewers more often than not, Pittsburgh with best rating (share) more often than not, Buffalo right behind them more often than not (e.g. a recent 12-year streak of finishing top-two best in local NHL ratings,) Buffalo playoff ratings when their own team isn't even in the playoffs, always at/near the top of the list, the Yotes always at/near the bottom, Panthers at/near the bottom, etc. Decades of data, wasn't one guy living in PHX for the last 20-something years who went to the bar one night once a season like clockwork to sabotage the Yotes local TV ratings/viewers and that's why the Coyotes rating, HHs, and viewership numbers are always so bad. They're bad because they're indisputably & measurably bad.

As for Nielsen and the methodology, I always think to how people have been saying it's outdated for years and yet, still the standard for buyers and sellers.

Also think back to a month or two ago when I saw the President of Insights and Analytics for FOX Corp. say about Nielsen:

"When I got my first job in this business all the very smart people agreed two things were obsolete and on the way out: Nielsen and the upfront.

All those people are now gone and Nielsen and the upfront are still here."

Which is what I think every time someone tries to throw the baby out with the bath water making some point about the methodology instead of recognizing that it's still the standard and the still valuable to buyers and sellers for a reason. Trusted data that shows that both at their best and at their worst, not a lot of people watch the Coyotes, sadly.

 

[KevFu]

The thing is that many fans in the sunbelt do understand where northern fans are coming from, there is zero effort on their part to see things our way. They just seem to want nothing more than for us to get hurt and kicked out of the clubhouse.

Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean that they don't understand.

I totally get it. It's really easy to look at a fan base in the warm weather with 14,000 attendance and understand someone saying "They don't APPRECIATE what they have... WE LOST THAT. We showed up, we gave our money, our passion, our freaking souls to that team, and then had it ripped away."

Even if you're not from Winnipeg, Quebec City, anywhere in Manitoba or Quebec, but just Canadian... Americans DO understand the Canadian traditionalist view.

You're protective of hockey. You gave the world this amazing gift of the most beautiful sport imaginable and watched it get handed over to American businessmen/commissioners, changed, rebranded, polluted, perverted ... you lost teams and they were given to places that just don't appreciate it at the same level you do.

SOME Americans like it, but it's YOUR HERITAGE, CULTURE and part of who you are down to your very soul. It's totally gross that there are "casual fans" in cities that win the Cup but it DOESN'T MEAN AS MUCH to the ENTIRE CITY/PROVINCE like it would for you. We UNDERSTAND that.

We just disagree on topics because you unleashed this game on the world, and we can't help but also loving it, too. Cat's out of the bag: hockey is awesome, so capitalism got attached. Sorry we have 340 million potential customers.

I think the fundamental misunderstanding of BOH conversations is that Canadian fans feel "You don't understand/deserve hockey like we do." When you should view any American posting about hockey as having "thank you, thank you, thank you" SCREAMING FROM THEIR SOUL.

Canada unleashed this amazing gift on the world... The USSR vs The West is way more different than a thermometer we use to judge Southern Markets. The Soviets embraced hockey, so why wouldn't the West's St. Petersburg?

I really think that the "traditional" view is insecure.

 

[KevFu]

I think you think you get the methodology more than you actually do but that's irrelevant

Pittsburgh with best rating (share) more often than not, Buffalo right behind them more often than not

THIS is what I mean about Nielsen ratings being rubbish...

Pittsburgh "more often than not"
Buffalo "more often than not"

If you look at the percentage of "Cable Subscribers, Single male, Head of household" in each market, PIT and BUF were 1 and 2 before Vegas came into the league (And could still be, I just haven't researched since).

That's the problem with Neilsen ratings: They're a cross section of "Americans" on an EXTREMELY LIMITED/RANDOM number. One Neilsen rater can be the estimate of an ARENA CAPACITY. When you want to use 1000 tickets as an indicator about a market, you can't let one person assigned a counting box be worth

Using them as a cross section of HOCKEY FANS is extremely bad logic.

 

[BMN]

Where? This is a lie.

take offense as the premise that the NHL or hockey in general would be more popular, profitable, and more successful than it's ever been if it just abandoned 80% of the continental US. That's not reality, it's just xenophobia.

To which I described the conundrum of Quebecers specifically: many believe a relocated team is their ONLY option. But @Salsero1 didn't retract or modify anything they said: ALL relocationists and ESPECIALLY Quebecers, for whom they've admitted they have a special disdain for, are xenophobic for wanting a NHL team even tho a relocated one is possibly the only way that happens. I then described just how that comes across but they completely ignored that point (maybe because it was uncomfortable to acknowledge, who knows, I'm speculating). Is it because southern fans are as pure as the driven snow and "relocationists" are, down to every person, "despicable?"

Cat's out of the bag: hockey is awesome, so capitalism got attached.

This board in a nutshell.

 

[BMN]

@KevFu : See, I'm gonna disagree here. I really DON'T think "the NHL" has treated the Coyotes any different than anyone else -- after a certain time period when Bettman stopped being the 'new' commissioner and starting using every tool in the toolbox. I think the commitment the NHL has shown Phoenix has just LASTED LONGER than any other commitment they've been forced to make; I.E. - They didn't need to go this route on the Island because they found Charles Wong, or in Pittsburgh because an arena got built.

The common denominator is TIME.
We can disagree on how differently the NHL treated the Yotes but that wasn't the most important point. For better or worse, the perception to the casual sports fan is that they have. Talk to a casual fan about the Coyotes and if they have heard of them, more often than not, it's "oh, that circus in Phoenix?" In some ways, I wouldn't want brand awareness of the Coyotes. There's not much hip cache to it.

And thanks for the response!

 

[aqib]

I mean, if you're using Minnesota to try and say that Phoenix is a failed market, I really don't know what to tell you... the Wild replaced A TEAM THAT MOVED. So the Minnesota market didn't fail... they built a new arena and are totally fine as a market -- despite no deep playoff runs. Let's see a Phoenix Arena 9.7 miles from the center of the metro area and see what happens!

Geez you miss the point again. Coyotes apologists have been saying if the team performed better on the ice they would be stable. I pointed out Minnesota because they came into existence around the same time, haven't been all that great on the ice and they're rock solid.

Everyone knows that the Stars moved because of Norman Green and his personal problems. No one ever questioned if hockey was viable in Minnesota. There is a reason why Minnesota was first up when for the next relocation and the league expanded there as soon as they could. If the Coyotes leave, how long do you think it will be before the NHL looks to go back?

 

[aqib]

I found this article from when Burke sold the Coyotes to Ellman back in 2000: https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/coyotes-sold-to-arizona-developer-1.252757

Here are a couple of noteworthy tidbits:

1) "The future of the Coyotes in Arizona is a priority for the league," NHL commissioner Gary Bettman said in a statement. "The anticipated sale to The Ellman Companies and the construction of a new arena in Los Arcos are vital steps toward securing the future of the Coyotes in Arizona and the revitalization of Los Arcos.

So here we are 23 years later and we're still at the point where a new owner and new arena are all the team needs to succeed.

2) Ellman would pay $10 million to Burke over time, his company and unnamed investors would pay $17 million, and Societe General, the Coyotes' bank, would transfer a $60-million loan from Burke to Ellman, according to reports.

So the Ellman didn't have much of his own money in the deal. He just rolled over some debt and signed a promissory note. That also seems to be a trend.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Local/regional TV viewership when the Yotes were competitive:

-After making the playoffs their first four seasons in AZ, market was excited and tuned in for 2000-01. Ironically the one season of their first six that they -barely- missed the playoffs set their best local viewership. Roughly 17,300 Households, which isn't a good number for peak/"max support of team."

-During a third straight playoff appearance in the year they finished first in their division and advanced all the way to the Conference Final, they delivered a 'whopping' (absolutely horrible) 7,210 HHs for the 2011-12 season.

-Like the 2000-01 "best" local viewership, it's the season after that sees the increase, added bonus that it was a lockout-shortened season which means local ratings shoot up through the roof across the league (similar happened for many teams during covid shortened season.) Yotes were no different, saw the increase after a Conference Final appearance season combined with the increase a 48-game shortened season helped produce, the Yotes blew up locally, all the way to 16,223 HHs in the 2012-13 season. Good for ranking 27th out of the then 30 teams in regional viewership.

What channel were they on at the time? And just curious where your source is for this info?

 

[Reaser]

What channel were they on at the time? And just curious where your source is for this info?

Fox Sports Arizona.

I had it saved in my file but here's a link from a quick google search:

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2013/04/10/phoenix-coyotes-see-boost-in-tv-ratings.html

 

[awfulwaffle]

Fox Sports Arizona.

I had it saved in my file but here's a link from a quick google search:

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2013/04/10/phoenix-coyotes-see-boost-in-tv-ratings.html

Is this also when the Suns were on UPN 45? Or were the Suns on Fox Sports Arizona as well? I'm just trying to figure out the timeline of when Suns and Coyotes were both on Fox Sports Arizona, and Coyotes typically sent to Fox Sports Plus.

 

[Reaser]

Is this also when the Suns were on UPN 45? Or were the Suns on Fox Sports Arizona as well? I'm just trying to figure out the timeline of when Suns and Coyotes were both on Fox Sports Arizona, and Coyotes typically sent to Fox Sports Plus.

Fox Sports Arizona.

2011-12 was the NBA lockout & 2012-13 was the NHL lockout so not a lot of overlap.

2011-12 Yotes/Suns played on the same date 16x, 3 of those the Yotes had national games & 1 of those the Suns had a national exclusive game. So 12 potential overlaps out of the Yotes 82 games -- of course the games on those 12 dates would have to have the same start time or overlapping game times for that to matter. Without the Suns competition for half the season the Coyotes avg on FSA was 7,210 HHs for the season, roughly around the usual you see from them, other than the rare spikes like you got the following season ...

2012-13 Yotes/Suns played on the same date 14x, 2 of those the Suns had national exclusive games so weren't on FSA. So again 12 potential overlaps out of the Yotes 48 games. Also can note that the Suns had 2 of their games that season sent to Plus.

Not a unique situation for the Coyotes. Plenty of teams share RSN with NBA or MLB team, lot of "Plus" channels. e.g. currently for Root Sports NW the Kraken are on Plus when they're scheduled the same time as the Mariners, and the Blazers are sent to Plus when they're at the same time as the Kraken.