CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[TheLegend]

Someday there will be a book telling the entire story of this saga.

I plan to read the first 6 volumes and then decide whether to commit to the whole series.

Compared to it… the Encyclopedia Brittanica would be light reading.

 

[JimAnchower]

Someday there will be a book telling the entire story of this saga.

I plan to read the first 6 volumes and then decide whether to commit to the whole series.

It will just be Ken Burns with a 20 part documentary. Be one of the first donors and you get a free tote bag and coffee mug.

 

[Brodie]

It seems like thousands of old pre-migration posts came back online recently so we have a wealth of material to draw from... I was just reading about how Barroway wanted to keep the team portable for moving to Portland last night!

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Someday there will be a book telling the entire story of this saga.

I plan to read the first 6 volumes and then decide whether to commit to the whole series.

I'd be shocked if there actually was one.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'd be shocked if there actually was one.

Why? It’s probably the single biggest and most complicated sports business saga of the past 40 years.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Why? It’s probably the single biggest and most complicated sports business saga of the past 40 years.

That complexity is why, and the way it's tracking the Coyotes are gonna be in a perpetual state of Flux for like 4 more years, lol.

I guess someone will take a Crack at it, but it'll be a tough sell.

It's like someone proposing to write a book about Vince McMahon - where do you start, and where do you end?

 

[tarheelhockey]

That complexity is why, and the way it's tracking the Coyotes are gonna be in a perpetual state of Flux for like 4 more years, lol.

I guess someone will take a Crack at it, but it'll be a tough sell.

It's like someone proposing to write a book about Vince McMahon - where do you start, and where do you end?

That’s true. The whole thing has been so complicated it would be hard to keep it from reading like a textbook.

 

[TheLegend]

That’s true. The whole thing has been so complicated it would be hard to keep it from reading like a textbook.

If you made a movie of it the story board would be something like this…

There’s been just so many factors that played into it I’m not sure anyone could sort it out.

Best explanation is they came to Arizona without a solid plan to begin with and could never get all the right pieces into place.

 

[aqib]

Bloomberg did new FUNDING deals for construction with the teams, but the terms of the LEASE the Mets have -- who gets revenues, what rent/taxes are paid, etc -- was virtually unchanged from what Giuliani drew up. The Mets have a 40-year lease, their stadium is on a subway line. They have the development rights to Willets Point, not someone else. If you want to haggle on details of differences, which mayor put what into the deal... go right ahead. The point is, the arena/stadium situation is night and day different between the Mets and Coyotes, and the prime difference is the role the Glendale government played with the Coyotes.


As for the Islanders, again, you're haggling over details I'm trying to remember from years ago that have been put behind NYT and Newsday pay-walls since. Charles, James, who cares. The point is that the Islanders signed a deal with SportsChannel, Cablevision bought SportsChannel, and thus the clause converted from SportsChannel to Cablevision... and the clause had to be bought out.

The details are here: TV SPORTS; Rich Cable Deal Lessens Isles' Misery (Published 1999)

It's behind a paywall. I found a page that cribs some lines from the article:

"Cablevision recoiled at the possibility of paying the Islanders 18 1/2 percent of total FSNY-MSG revenues. In the talks, the team got an extension through the 2030-31 season, which features yearly payments rising from $14.8 million next season and $17.5 million in 2000-1 to $36 million in the final year, and the possibility of lousy performances causing a breach disappeared from the final contract."

The Mets have like $40 million a year in annual bond payments on their stadium. As far as development rights in Willets Point, up until a few years ago the only thing in Willets Point other than the stadium was auto chop-shops. It was where you went if you need a part for a car that's more than 10 years old. Its not like developers were going "oooo the Iron Triangle! I have to get a piece of that!"

 

[KevFu]

Yup, Nothing has happened at Willets Point in decades. Although, apparently, an MLS Stadium for NYCFC is coming soon?

 

[TheLegend]

Yup, Nothing has happened at Willets Point in decades. Although, apparently, an MLS Stadium for NYCFC is coming soon?

Chances are it'll get done before Tempe resolves their landfill problem.

 

[aqib]

Yup, Nothing has happened at Willets Point in decades. Although, apparently, an MLS Stadium for NYCFC is coming soon?

Yeah I have no idea why the soccer team partly owned by the Yankees is going next to the Mets. Do they even have fans in that part of the city or is their fan base in Manhattan/Bronx/Westchester like the Yankees are?

Either way you proved my point. The value of the Mets isn't from development. Its from the fact that they have a huge fan base in a market that loves baseball and make a lot of revenue as a result. That's why when the Wilpons were looking for an investor David Einhorn (a billionaire) tried to make an offer and when they decided sell another billionaire bought them, When the Coyotes were up for sale after the NHL took them over it was Hulsizer who basically wanted the City to buy it for him by paying him for the parking rights, Jameson who never got the cash together, LeBlanc who literally said he was "shaking a cup for years" to get the money, Barroway who came and went so fast I don't even remember what his deal was, and now Muerello who doesn't pay bills on time.

There are over 700 billionaires in the US and 12 in Arizona. Why haven't any of them jumped in?

The Ottawa Senators play in an old arena in the wrong location and when they were put up for sale multiple billionaires jumped in and submitted bids. Are all these billionaires too stupid to see how great an opportunity exists in the desert?

 

[PredsHead]

Does anyone know what level of approvals would be required for building on a city island? The land the arena would be on wouldn't belong to the city proper but it would likely need to use city or county services like water, sewer, electric, transit and first responders. I would assume there has to be some boards and/or councils that would have to approve any facility like an arena even on a city island.

 

[Shwan]

Does anyone know what level of approvals would be required for building on a city island? The land the arena would be on wouldn't belong to the city proper but it would likely need to use city or county services like water, sewer, electric, transit and first responders. I would assume there has to be some boards and/or councils that would have to approve any facility like an arena even on a city island.

The likely route would be Meruelo buys 51%+ of a county island, then talks to the city it surrounds that surrounds it to annex it, then starts talks with them to rezone and try to get tax abatements from them.

From this old AZ Central Article

County island residents don't have sewer hookups, and are on septic systems. They usually don't have water service and may have community wells or subscribe to private companies. And since they aren't city taxpayers, they pay non-resident fees for city recreation classes.

and

State laws dictate that annexation can only occur if 51 percent of property owners consent, representing at least 51 percent of the assessed value of the property.

If Meruelo magically opened up his pocketbook and decided to fund this all by himself all it would take would be an approval by the Maricopa County board of supervisors. Right now Chandler is fighting the development of an affordable housing apartment complex that's proposed on County Island Land.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

And now we're in the "we should buy an island" phase of drunken planning.

What's next, proposing the Coyotes play out of a bar that Meruelo is gonna open ?

Or maybe a food truck?

 

[Stumbledore]

Does anyone know what level of approvals would be required for building on a city island? The land the arena would be on wouldn't belong to the city proper.

For development purposes, yes, it would.

 

[Shwan]

And now we're in the "we should buy an island" phase of drunken planning.

What's next, proposing the Coyotes play out of a bar that Meruelo is gonna open ?

Or maybe a food truck?

Couldn't be too worse than "out back behind the Goodwill by the RV storage park and abandoned batting cage"

 

[PredsHead]

The likely route would be Meruelo buys 51%+ of a county island, then talks to the city it surrounds that surrounds it to annex it, then starts talks with them to rezone and try to get tax abatements from them.

From this old AZ Central Article


and


If Meruelo magically opened up his pocketbook and decided to fund this all by himself all it would take would be an approval by the Maricopa County board of supervisors. Right now Chandler is fighting the development of an affordable housing apartment complex that's proposed on County Island Land.

Thanks that helps a lot, I'm having a hard time seeing Meruelo being able to get everything necessary done given the time frame. Trying to keep an open mind about their options, but if the BOG wants a concrete plan in place by mid-season then I'm not sure the county island route would be viable.

 

[Ciao]

A good story n

That’s true. The whole thing has been so complicated it would be hard to keep it from reading like a textbook.

A good story needs a beginning, a middle and an end.

These threads have no clear beginning, far too much middle and no end. They would be unreadable.

 

[BMN]

These threads have no clear beginning, far too much middle and no end. They would be unreadable.

Honestly if you told the story of the Coyotes Lost style, it would be legit compelling. And I'm not even joking.

 

[aqib]

A good story n

A good story needs a beginning, a middle and an end.

These threads have no clear beginning, far too much middle and no end. They would be unreadable.

The beginning is when they couldn't put a deal together in Minnesota and pivoted to Phoenix. The end will be when they either move or drop the puck in a new arena.

 

[KevFu]

Yeah I have no idea why the soccer team partly owned by the Yankees is going next to the Mets. Do they even have fans in that part of the city or is their fan base in Manhattan/Bronx/Westchester like the Yankees are?

I have no idea what the NYCFC fan base is, but the Yankees involvement in that team was literally just an assurance for MLS that the team wouldn't be made homeless and need to fold. The Yankees ownership stake was basically "a lease" for Yankee Stadium.

Soccer fans don't view NYCFC as the "Yankees owned team." It's Manchester City, who's historical identity is akin to the Mets (Man United is like the "Yankees" of England). I'm a City fan for that reason. Steve Cohen is the Mets' version of the Sheik.

Either way you proved my point. The value of the Mets isn't from development. Its from the fact that they have a huge fan base in a market that loves baseball and make a lot of revenue as a result.

And MY point was that the business of selling tickets to fans and generating revenue in a market is what the franchise is; and OUTSIDE factors show up on the ledger sheet and can make a franchise LOOK like it "Can't make money" when that isn't reality.

Ownership liquidity issues show their face: Whether it be in the Wilpon's getting caught up in Bernie Madoff, Jerry Moyes bleeding money from the franchise, Frank McCourt with the Dodgers, Tom Hicks in Dallas. The debt carried by the team as part an owner's liquidity issue makes teams finances show red, when every franchise as a business is totally fine as long as they have a modern arena, with a good lease and an owner who doesn't need to take out tens of millions in loans to buy the team.

That's why when the Wilpons were looking for an investor David Einhorn (a billionaire) tried to make an offer and when they decided sell another billionaire bought them, When the Coyotes were up for sale after the NHL took them over it was Hulsizer who basically wanted the City to buy it for him by paying him for the parking rights, Jameson who never got the cash together, LeBlanc who literally said he was "shaking a cup for years" to get the money, Barroway who came and went so fast I don't even remember what his deal was, and now Muerello who doesn't pay bills on time.

Examples of liquidity and not the business.

There are over 700 billionaires in the US and 12 in Arizona. Why haven't any of them jumped in?

The Ottawa Senators play in an old arena in the wrong location and when they were put up for sale multiple billionaires jumped in and submitted bids. Are all these billionaires too stupid to see how great an opportunity exists in the desert?

Because Ottawa gave the venue to the Senators and Glendale hasn't given it to the Coyotes. It's a classic example of everyone wants the revenues and to stick someone else with the bill.

There's ONE HAND in the cookie jar for the Mets and Senators. There's been 2 or 3 or more in the Coyotes this entire time.

 

[Brodie]

the whole point of NYCFC was to cater to fans in Queens and Brooklyn for whom Harrison was an unreasonable schlep, playing in the Bronx this long was never part of the plan

 

[aqib]

I have no idea what the NYCFC fan base is, but the Yankees involvement in that team was literally just an assurance for MLS that the team wouldn't be made homeless and need to fold. The Yankees ownership stake was basically "a lease" for Yankee Stadium.

Soccer fans don't view NYCFC as the "Yankees owned team." It's Manchester City, who's historical identity is akin to the Mets (Man United is like the "Yankees" of England). I'm a City fan for that reason. Steve Cohen is the Mets' version of the Sheik.

And MY point was that the business of selling tickets to fans and generating revenue in a market is what the franchise is; and OUTSIDE factors show up on the ledger sheet and can make a franchise LOOK like it "Can't make money" when that isn't reality.

Ownership liquidity issues show their face: Whether it be in the Wilpon's getting caught up in Bernie Madoff, Jerry Moyes bleeding money from the franchise, Frank McCourt with the Dodgers, Tom Hicks in Dallas. The debt carried by the team as part an owner's liquidity issue makes teams finances show red, when every franchise as a business is totally fine as long as they have a modern arena, with a good lease and an owner who doesn't need to take out tens of millions in loans to buy the team.

Because Ottawa gave the venue to the Senators and Glendale hasn't given it to the Coyotes. It's a classic example of everyone wants the revenues and to stick someone else with the bill.

There's ONE HAND in the cookie jar for the Mets and Senators. There's been 2 or 3 or more in the Coyotes this entire time.

How can you so definitively speak for all soccer fans? I don't even follow MLS and I knew that the Yankees were invested in NYCFC. It was well established since they began playing.

The "liquidity issues" particular owners face and the accounting loopholes they use to show a loss are well known to other potential investors. That's why multiple billionaires didn't blink when given the chance to buy the Mets, Dodgers, or Stars but why Anthony LeBlanc practically had to run a kickstarter campaign to buy the Coyotes.

Also saying Ottawa gave the venue to the Senators is so false I am now convinced you just make stuff up. Not only did the Senators have to pay the full cost of their arena they literally had to pay for the exit ramp off the highway to get there

 

[ponder719]

How can you so definitively speak for all soccer fans? I don't even follow MLS and I knew that the Yankees were invested in NYCFC. It was well established since they began playing.

New York City FC

Owner	City Football Group (80%) Yankee Global Enterprises (20%)

Yeah, they're primarily Man City's team, as Kev said. The Yankees have a small stake. It's like calling the Vegas Golden Knights "Maloof-owned." Perhaps those who follow MLS have a better handle on these things than those who don't even follow?