CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[oldunclehue]

Assuming you have your sources, sounds like a problem with players and agents. Coyotes weren't even the worst team in the league.

Again....this depends on what your desired lifestyle/workplace is. We have to remember the NHL is a workplace, career for some. If you were to be in that select group of a draft class/NHLer and have 32 organizations, 31 of them play in professional NHL facilities in cities that have shown some forms of support be it from politicians (facilities etc), fans and corporate. The Coyotes have been trying their ass off to be successful but the area has been sour to them for a long time now and the Tempe vote shows that....along with the lack of a Plan B surfacing.

As a future employee....I'd much rather be drafted by one of the 31 organizations that offer stability in regards to the business side so I could focus on my career advancement and success rather than the many unknowns and lack of professional facilities/minimal support in area.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Again....this depends on what your desired lifestyle/workplace is. We have to remember the NHL is a workplace, career for some. If you were to be in that select group of a draft class/NHLer and have 32 organizations, 31 of them play in professional NHL facilities in cities that have shown some forms of support be it from politicians (facilities etc), fans and corporate. The Coyotes have been trying their ass off to be successful but the area has been sour to them for a long time now and the Tempe vote shows that....along with the lack of a Plan B surfacing.

As a future employee....I'd much rather be drafted by one of the 31 organizations that offer stability in regards to the business side so I could focus on my career advancement and success rather than the many unknowns and lack of professional facilities/minimal support in area.

Oh my gosh, yes, they are playing in a college arena. That's the ONLY issue. People are just going to have to get over that fact.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

People acting like AZ won't be a top 5-10 destination in the league after getting a secure arena are hilarious. It's one of the nicest places to live in the league during Hockey season and financially great for tax reasons, personal life, everything.

 

[Stumbledore]

Oh my gosh, yes, they are playing in a college arena. That's the ONLY issue. People are just going to have to get over that fact.

If you think that was "the ONLY issue", you obviously haven't been paying attention.

 

[oldunclehue]

People acting like AZ won't be a top 5-10 destination in the league after getting a secure arena are hilarious. It's one of the nicest places to live in the league during Hockey season and financially great for tax reasons, personal life, everything.

I think you are right, but there would likely be a cautious time to ensure the arena/fan support is successful. But I've been down a couple times and other than travelling in the area its absolutly gorgeous spot. Players would eventually want to go there like Vegas.

 

[MeHateHe]

How soon will this thread fill up so I don't have that song fill my head every time I come to the BoH forum? If I just randomly start posting stew recipes here, would anyone object?

 

[BMN]

How soon will this thread fill up so I don't have that song fill my head every time I come to the BoH forum? If I just randomly start posting stew recipes here, would anyone object?

Sorry but you'll have to CARRIE on with that tune in your head a little while longer.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Oh my gosh, yes, they are playing in a college arena. That's the ONLY issue. People are just going to have to get over that fact.

No, that is far from the only issue. Its just the latest in a series of major issues.

No one would give a crap if the Bruins had to play in Conte Forum for a couple years while a new arena got built.

 

[MeHateHe]

Sorry but you'll have to CARRIE on with that tune in your head a little while longer.

I hate you so much.

 

[KevFu]

No, that is far from the only issue. Its just the latest in a series of major issues.

No one would give a crap if the Bruins had to play in Conte Forum for a couple years while a new arena got built.

It is the latest in a series of issues, but there's only one left unresolved.

They've ALWAYS had an issue, and they drew just fine for the circumstances every step of the way. Which is why the problem isn't the market, it's the circumstances.

It's no different than the Islanders. The Islanders survived 30 years needing a new arena because their old arena and the SMG lease was destroying their finances. Then they went to an NBA arena that could barely fit hockey and had 10,000 good seats. Terrible owners, crook owners, bad on ice product. Still able to survive for close to 30 years before UBS opened.

This is why the Tempe project is so disappointing. They'd be circumstance free if that deal got done. And maybe they'd see a massive transformation into "good franchise" like the Islanders have.


There is a hypocritical view of teams: Pittsburgh was in bankruptcy, no one said that market sucks for hockey. Chicago had a terrible owner and drew 12,750, no one batted an eyelash. No one has any problem saying Ottawa's struggles are due to ownership and playing 30 miles from downtown. St. Louis and Buffalo are ALWAYS near the bottom in revenues, and no one brings them up for relocation.

But the second something comes up in Florida, Carolina, Dallas, etc... the "Just move them _______" starts.

If there was a world reset button and you started NHL 2.0 from scratch, you'd definitely be including Miami, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, "Bay Area" and two in LA & Anaheim, and one team in North Carolina. I don't see how you'd say no to Nashville or Columbus. You'd absolutely want Houston and a second team in Southern Ontario.... but you wouldn't be cutting Phoenix or any other southern team to get them. It would be the third NYC team and Buffalo left out to get them in.

 

[Shwan]

Bankrupt Diamond Sports motions to cut the D-backs from their broadcast contract.

Coyotes have still been mum on their broadcast plans for next season.

Bankrupt Diamond Moves to Cut the MLB's Diamondbacks Loose From Bally Sports Arizona

Like the San Diego Padres, the club likely will soon be working with Major League Baseball to present their own local telecasts

www.nexttv.com

 

[KevFu]

Bankrupt Diamond Sports motions to cut the D-backs from their broadcast contract.

Coyotes have still been mum on their broadcast plans for next season.

Bankrupt Diamond Moves to Cut the MLB's Diamondbacks Loose From Bally Sports Arizona

Like the San Diego Padres, the club likely will soon be working with Major League Baseball to present their own local telecasts

www.nexttv.com

You don't want to look at this whole thing by MARKET, but by RIGHTS. (IE - dropping DBacks doesn't mean Coyotes will be dropped).

For them to be successful in the streaming age, they need Direct to Consumer streaming rights for the teams.

They HAVE the rights to MLB: Milwaukee, Miami, Tampa Bay, Kansas City, Detroit.

They DON'T HAVE DTC streaming for MLB:
Group 1: San Diego, Arizona, Cleveland, and Cincinnati.
Group 2: Anaheim, Atlanta, St. Louis, Texas (and Minnesota).

Group 1 are the teams they've dropped (SD) or intend to drop because either they can't add their streaming, OR the rights fees to size of the market makes it a bad deal.

Group 2 are the teams they're not dropping and will keep trying to get DTC streaming rights to or re-negotiate with. (Minnesota's in the last year of the deal).


Ballys has DTC Streaming rights for EVERY NHL/NBA TEAM they have a RSN deal with. The NHL teams are also the cheapest rates among MLB, NBA, NHL; so chances are, nothing will change for hockey teams. In fact, the more MLB teams they drop, the more likely the NHL teams keep getting paid, because that reduces the chances the whole company goes belly-up.

 

[Stumbledore]

If there was a world reset button and you started NHL 2.0 from scratch, you'd definitely be including

And if you were starting the NFL from scratch, would you include Green Bay?

 

[Shwan]

You don't want to look at this whole thing by MARKET, but by RIGHTS. (IE - dropping DBacks doesn't mean Coyotes will be dropped).

I'm more concerned with the situation of cutting Dbacks, Which will lead to the Suns most likely geting out of their contract and so they will then break their contract with the Coyotes to get completely out of the Arizona Market because even if it's dirt cheap to keep the Coyotes it's not economical for them to *just* carry one severely underperforming NHL team in this region.

Edit:

It would look to be the only market that just has a NHL team for Bally

 

[Mightygoose]

BOG meeting earlier today. Bettman spoke with Elliott Friedman touching base on the Yotes arena situation

Bettman: Arizona Coyotes arena situation should become clearer by midway mark of 2023–24 season

The Coyotes will play the 2023–24 season at the 4,600-seat Mullett Arena in Tempe.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

To Quote
"They’re in the process of exploring the alternatives that they have in the Greater Phoenix Area, and they do have a number of options,” Bettman said. “I think by mid-season we should have a pretty good handle on what their situation is, and if we need to explore further options at that time, we’ll consult with management and figure out what to do.”

Not that a firm deadline is set but that timeline That will it anytime between the winter BOG meetings in December and the All Star break.

 

[Lady Stanley]

BOG meeting earlier today. Bettman spoke with Elliott Friedman touching base on the Yotes arena situation

Bettman: Arizona Coyotes arena situation should become clearer by midway mark of 2023–24 season

The Coyotes will play the 2023–24 season at the 4,600-seat Mullett Arena in Tempe.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

To Quote
"They’re in the process of exploring the alternatives that they have in the Greater Phoenix Area, and they do have a number of options,” Bettman said. “I think by mid-season we should have a pretty good handle on what their situation is, and if we need to explore further options at that time, we’ll consult with management and figure out what to do.”

Not that a firm deadline is set but that timeline That will it anytime between the winter BOG meetings in December and the All Star break.

Posturing to maximize relocation value.

 

[mouser]

How soon will this thread fill up so I don't have that song fill my head every time I come to the BoH forum? If I just randomly start posting stew recipes here, would anyone object?

1k thread post limits have no longer been necessary since HFBoards migrated to a new forum software platform.

We generally begin new threads now when a significant new event happens, not post count limits.

 

[mouser]

I'm more concerned with the situation of cutting Dbacks, Which will lead to the Suns most likely geting out of their contract and so they will then break their contract with the Coyotes to get completely out of the Arizona Market because even if it's dirt cheap to keep the Coyotes it's not economical for them to *just* carry one severely underperforming NHL team in this region.

Edit:

It would look to be the only market that just has a NHL team for Bally

View attachment 720240

It’s difficult to tell at times how much Is legal posturing vs desired outcome for Diamond Sports and some of the teams. If the Diamondbacks and Suns both leave the RSN then I agree that’s probably the death knell for the RSN and the Coyotes will likely be looking for a new broadcast partner.

My understanding is the Suns contract with Diamond is expiring, however reportedly the contract includes some form of right of first refusal delaying the Suns from entering into a broadcast deal with another partner.

 

[GordonGraham]

BOG meeting earlier today. Bettman spoke with Elliott Friedman touching base on the Yotes arena situation

Bettman: Arizona Coyotes arena situation should become clearer by midway mark of 2023–24 season

The Coyotes will play the 2023–24 season at the 4,600-seat Mullett Arena in Tempe.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

To Quote
"They’re in the process of exploring the alternatives that they have in the Greater Phoenix Area, and they do have a number of options,” Bettman said. “I think by mid-season we should have a pretty good handle on what their situation is, and if we need to explore further options at that time, we’ll consult with management and figure out what to do.”

Not that a firm deadline is set but that timeline That will it anytime between the winter BOG meetings in December and the All Star break.

"Exploring the alternatives" sounds to me like years away from shovel in the ground

 

[Fatass]

Maybe if the Coyotes were a winning club they would have the local support to build a new rink? Not sure if Matthews could save them but it could be their best play financially to bring him in.

 

[aqib]

Both those things can be true.

This is part of what I was talking about with the Moyes bankruptcy and how tons of things that have nothing to do with the "normally running a hockey business" show up in teams profit/loss.

How much did they spend on the arena project? Putting together bids and proposals cost money. Architects, consultants and lawyers cost money whether you build it or not. Presentation and lobbying. Advertising. That adds up.

There are tons of things that show up in a team's profit/loss that have no actual relevance to how viable the hockey business is in terms of "revenue vs expenses." You expect that a loss means the whole operation is a doomed failure that can't work, which is hardly ever the case.


The ultimate example is the New York Mets after the Bernie Madoff scandal. Cataclysmic red ink for 15 years. But the baseball operation of Revenue vs Expenses are always going to be excellent in New York.

Every member of the Big Four leagues is going to be totally viable as a business when you're only talking "will revenue be enough to cover the minimum expenses to operate?" Hell yes, by a long shot. (Again, COVID. MLB sold no tickets and no one joined Oakland and Tampa in the "problem" category).

It's when you bring in expenses outside of just running a team onto the team ledger: Debt from buying the team, or an arena project, or getting caught in a con man's Ponzi scheme, that teams look like financial disasters.

Which is why so many people in this thread are saying that the Phoenix market needs a reset button. There's nothing about the PHX market that makes it any different than Florida, Dallas or Houston.

The thing with the Mets is that everytime they were even rumored to be up for sale billionaires were falling all over themselves to put in bids. They got bought by one of the richest men in America. Spank and later Kumar aside many of the guys who have had turns at the Islanders were legit wealthy guys. Milstein eventually bid on the Browns and Redskins,Wang was wealthy and the new guys (who went to the same high school as me) are also deep pocketed.

Both teams also have healthy TV deals and ratings.

Contrast that to the Coyotes. Why is it everytime they are up for sale it's always some charlatan trying to buy them. What are their TV ratings even? I kept hearing that there was this huge fan base on the other side of the valley if they could only get an arena there. However if that existed why isn't there a big tv contract keeping them afloat like the Islanders always had?

 

[Melrose Munch]

People acting like AZ won't be a top 5-10 destination in the league after getting a secure arena are hilarious. It's one of the nicest places to live in the league during Hockey season and financially great for tax reasons, personal life, everything.

When the Yotes were in America West, life was good.

 

[TheLegend]

So he's complaining on his Twitter that has 23k followers? Show an example please?' Ill also take a time stamp on his Livestream that averages 500-1000 views.

Pretty convenient he gripes about the team there, and not on an actual by-line article from PHNX, you know, where Meruelo can threaten to sue him for defamation if he writes anything unflattering.

Oh.... got it. It's now because he doesn't gripe to a large enough crowd (in your opinion).

Keep moving those goalposts.

The part where he, and you, think either of those sites are viable is the "everything is okay schtick". Especially the part where you think the tribe would lease their land to someone who would just build a competing sportsbook "on a lot across the street."

He's describing the sites that are being looked at and their benefits and pitfalls and nothing else. I made the suggestion that putting a sportsbook across from the site as a possible solution. That's throwing a suggestion out.... not a Baghdad Bob moment.

By the way Jeremy Cluff of the Arizona Republic just the other day essentially wrote an article that was more of less a summary of Craig's article (he credited Craig throughout whole thing).

So I guess the Coyotes' "propaganda department" has doubled in size.

 

[TheLegend]

lol like you'd know lol

Ah yes.... back to the old days where Coyotes losses were doubling every other week according to the keyboard economists.

 

[TheLegend]

Like Clockwork.


"Everything's Fine!"

Except Xavier Gutierrez already went on record back in January saying the team is on track to be in the red $10M+

You need to leave the editorializing to the Katie Strangs.

Show the group here where ANYONE has actually said "everything is fine". And I'm talking an actual quote, Not your own constant biased opinions.

A two million dollar increase over the previous season in Glendale is an interesting piece of data.

Given the context of Coyotes attendance the last season was slightly 11,000 with is roughly 3,000 less than the 3-4 pre-Covid years before that. Also given the context that many here didn't think the Coyotes were going to even get close to that.

So as you can see..... I'm not taking that as something significant other than they aren't slipping further into debt (like some random poster who will be claiming they will have lost $2 billion by the end of the month).

Now I'm sure Xavier was okay putting this information out there back in January when he thought the Coyotes were going to be the proud owners of a landfill by now, but given the circumstances this shows how dire the team is in and why they need an arena plan yesterday. A lame duck season would be catastrophic.

You know if you're going to try getting a $2 billion project approved, the absolutely LAST thing you're going to do is project any desperation on your part.

In January they probably were confident. Maybe TOO confident, and possibly relied too much on some bad political consultation they got.

But that's in the past now.