CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[AtlantaWhaler]

lol the Spirit group chose to have monster trucks and concerts 42 times a year(plus preseason) over having an NHL team because they could make more money with the truck's and concerts and Ice Capades than they could hockey. end of story.

it doesn't atter what "attendance is" if people are paying loss leader prices for tickets. which is exactly what was happening. borth in Atlanta and Pheonix/Glendale/AZ
there is NO REVENUE. because the fans won't pay the prices or fill the barn
any excuse you come up with about marketing and owners and commutes is just BS.
REVENUE is what matters. nobody cares if you got 16,000 atendees at a $15 tickets and are losing $250,000 a game because of it......

There is not enough Revenue to justify the franchise. and never has been. Period.

It's why we are here, 26 years of the bottom of the league revenue,TV share, Advertising,corporate support, merch sales, and ticket sales. 26 years at the bottom, losing 10's of millions a year, with no solid plan to change that........

and here you are saying "if we throw another BIllion at it it'll work this time! I swear!"

lol...they made so much more money that they sold the arena and Hawks just a couple years after selling off the Thrashers. Even after keeping the Thrashers on the cap floor for years. end of story

 

[Devils 3silverones]

Pissing contest... Again. They did we did they should.
While I enjoyed reading it, most, Have been through EVERY quote, article..

Morgan knows nothing. Canadian media, American media, same.
Alex knows something... Just not enough.
If he did. This thread would be closed.

I stayed away to read... Legend, mm, hell got a few out out of the boonies. Yes, Casual...

Opinions matter. Always. Keep at it folks.

Banter works..

 

[BMN]

That's just not reality. A 5 year old franchise that came into the dead puck era league with the old expansion process and not a winning season yet is never going to be the top in revenue. That's not what you expect when entering a new market. I don't know what you're arguing but it's not based in this reality. Trying to argue "they would have kept the Thrashers if they were more popular than the leafs" is a nonsense idea.

I'm just saying it's greater than 0%. That's all I'm saying.

You say I'm not talking reality but pretending that "no matter how much money the Thrashers were making, they'd have been moved" is an exercise in self delusion. If ASG had enough visible evidence to suggest 44 Thrashers games were not only more profitable than 44 concerts, but *exceedingly* more profitable, there's a greater than 0% chance they would have stayed. People like making money. I know that's a shocking revelation but it's true.

Myself, I don't put attendance any higher than 2% (honestly though it's probably a flat 1%) in the varied reasons they ended up relocating. But pretending it's nothing is silly.

The biggest reason to me wasn't even the ASG specifically but that the whole house was built on sand to begin with. There were no bonding obligations, there was no savvy management (I maintain the departure of Harvey Schiller before the puck even dropped is underdiscussed) and the team launched the same year as a terrible draft that wasn't merely shallow but desert-esque. The conditions for a terrible octocluster that just so happened to have Ted Turner connections to come buy it couldn't have been more evident.

FWIW I feel the same way about Quebec and Winnipeg. Attendance revenue doesn't necessarily rank highest on their "relocation reasons" but pretending it's 0% is wallowing in naivety.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Amen.



Yeah. My main cause for rambling on with thousands of words and visual aides is that a time when the Coyotes had an actual modern NHL arena in a good location that was accessible to the whole market to maximize attendance and revenues... still hasn't happened since the left Winnipeg.

Didn't really happen in Winnipeg either, lol.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I think it's fair to say the fact we're on megathread 148 of this saga has had some sort if impact on the fanbase/market.

Disagree with how big of an impact, sure, but it can't be nothing.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Oh ya? You mean to tell me that star players who have agents, parents, advisors, nutritionists and are surrounded by multiple others who tell them how amazing they are might maybe not want to be drafted by an NHL team with no arena, no arena plan, unknown if they will stay in current location and only 12 plays on their roster. I mean from an outsider looking in getting drafted by an NHL team is HUGE. But for many of these kids on this trajectory for most of their lives, they want fame and fortune. Not instability and unknown.

Dude, they have an arena. It's Mullet Arena. When that lease is coming to an end, and they aren't sure where they are playing, then it's time to worry. Only thing they are worried about is making it to the NHL. You and many others over exaggerate(with no inside personal knowledge) about what people actually think about the arena issue etc.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Dude, they have an arena. It's Mullet Arena. When that lease is coming to an end, and they aren't sure where they are playing, then it's time to worry. Only thing they are worried about is making it to the NHL. You and many others over exaggerate(with no inside personal knowledge) about what people actually think about the arena issue etc.

There lease expires in 1 year, with an option for an additional year. I would say the time to worry is now.

It is true that there are lots of hockey players whose only dream is to make the NHL - anywhere. These are the more more bubble players/bottom of the line up though.

When it comes time to try and sign and recruit star players - the ones who help you win games and maybe championships - all the uncertainty around the team is a huge negative.

So absolutely Arizona will always be able to put a team on the ice because it is an NHL franchise paying NHL salaries. Butit's hard to see them having a ton of on-ice success with all the baggage that's been around the team for so long.

 

[awfulwaffle]

There lease expires in 1 year, with an option for an additional year. I would say the time to worry is now.

It is true that there are lots of hockey players whose only dream is to make the NHL - anywhere. These are the more more bubble players/bottom of the line up though.

When it comes time to try and sign and recruit star players - the ones who help you win games and maybe championships - all the uncertainty around the team is a huge negative.

So absolutely Arizona will always be able to put a team on the ice because it is an NHL franchise paying NHL salaries. Butit's hard to see them having a ton of on-ice success with all the baggage that's been around the team for so long.

The lease expires in 2 years, not 1 year. So in essence, they could have 3 years left. And who's to say if they do find an option in Arizona, that they couldn't just amend the lease to include additional years. I'm willing to bet that ASU would be open to that, even though the team wouldn't be in Tempe. It's easy money for ASU.

 

[Brodie]

they should've moved the Coyotes to Vegas

 

[Yukon Joe]

The lease expires in 2 years, not 1 year. So in essence, they could have 3 years left. And who's to say if they do find an option in Arizona, that they couldn't just amend the lease to include additional years. I'm willing to bet that ASU would be open to that, even though the team wouldn't be in Tempe. It's easy money for ASU.

I thought it was a 2 year lease with an option for a third, but whatever. I think you're missing the point - there's a lot of instability around the franchise. Even if ASU agrees to extend the lease (which I agree - they probably would) Mullett Arena is not a long-term home for the team. Players looking to sign with the team (as either UFAs or RFAs) may well be scared off because of that instability.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

they should've moved the Coyotes to Vegas

Aside from the cost in joining, I'd be willing to bet you anything that Foley, management, and fans are all much happier starting from scratch than being stuck with inheriting the Coyotes' mess of a roster.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I thought it was a 2 year lease with an option for a third, but whatever. I think you're missing the point - there's a lot of instability around the franchise. Even if ASU agrees to extend the lease (which I agree - they probably would) Mullett Arena is not a long-term home for the team. Players looking to sign with the team (as either UFAs or RFAs) may well be scared off because of that instability.

You're parroting talking points like a politician. Please point me to where a player has said "I don't want to play in Arizona because of the issue of not knowing where they will be playing."

They never had issues back when the team was owned by the NHL. They were on a year to year lease in Glendale, and didn't have problems signing players. They will not have issues signing players moving forward.

 

[Shwan]

they should've moved the Coyotes to Vegas

They still can. (This is a joke.....kind of)

Who’s got next? Planned Las Vegas arena could be home to NBA team

Oak View Group Chairman and CEO Tim Leiweke built an arena that attracted the Seattle Kraken. Now, he’s planning an NBA-ready arena in Las Vegas.

www.reviewjournal.com

 

[Shwan]

They never had issues back when the team was owned by the NHL. They were on a year to year lease in Glendale, and didn't have problems signing players. They will not have issues signing players moving forward.

Blake Wheeler, selected by the Coyotes in the 2004 Entry Draft, has rejected the Coyotes contract offer and will become an unrestricted free agent.

Phoenix Coyotes Give Kyle Turris a One-Way Ticket out of the Desert

I realized he had deep feelings about playing for us and those feelings would not change. This is a hard game to play when you’re not engaged mentally.

Edit: I did want to add that I would say this hasn't happened since because in the intervening years the Valley has grown pretty fast and players do have a good life out here. You can do what you love and you live in relative anonymity to the point where you can put around North Scottsdale/Fountain Hills and catch players just living their lives in the off-season every once in awhile at least in my experience.

That being said as many have noted this environment is not probably going attract players who want fame (#34) as much as they want money.

These kids coming up, once they start getting that mindset about this is just as much about image as it is skill, they might be the next round of Wheeler/Turris.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Blake Wheeler, selected by the Coyotes in the 2004 Entry Draft, has rejected the Coyotes contract offer and will become an unrestricted free agent.

Phoenix Coyotes Give Kyle Turris a One-Way Ticket out of the Desert

I stand corrected, but we were able to get guys like Ray Whitney, Boyd Gordon, Mike Smith, all that helped get the team to the Western Conference Finals.

 

[cheswick]

Blake Wheeler, selected by the Coyotes in the 2004 Entry Draft, has rejected the Coyotes contract offer and will become an unrestricted free agent.

Phoenix Coyotes Give Kyle Turris a One-Way Ticket out of the Desert

Wheeler predates the NHL ownership of the team. He was 4 years out from his draft and opted to become a UFA.

 

[Shwan]

Wheeler predates the NHL ownership of the team. He was 4 years out from his draft and opted to become a UFA.

By 2008 Wheeler probably didn't know what exactly was going to happen (NHL taking ownership) but he had a good clue it was going to be a dumpster fire after Ellman sold the team to Moyes in 2006.

 

[KevFu]

lol not a fan of history are you. sure there lots of circumstances involved in any failing team.
I can't help but notice you ignore history of the entire CBA, revenue-sharing, the salary cap, and the modern TV marketing deals. and it's impact.

It was a failed hockey market long before the 'Yotes showed up. and it's a failed market and the last 26 years have made that abundantly clear to anyone who isn't a acting like a disobedient child screaming "NONONONONONONO I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"

That's hilarious. One of us is posting data, facts, charts, looking for the attendance trends compared to team win percentage, the United States economy, or the ownership debacle headlines; and one of us is just saying "IT'S A FAILED MARKET! LOW ATTENDANCE! LOST MONEY! FAIL FAIL FAIL!" over and over again.

 

[MeHateHe]

they should've moved the Coyotes to Vegas

Vegas isn't big enough for two teams.

 

[oldunclehue]

Dude, they have an arena. It's Mullet Arena. When that lease is coming to an end, and they aren't sure where they are playing, then it's time to worry. Only thing they are worried about is making it to the NHL. You and many others over exaggerate(with no inside personal knowledge) about what people actually think about the arena issue etc.

Actually I have several friends playing in the NHL and have billeted multiple players who played WHL and NCAA. NHL friends say no one wants to sign in Arizona at all, it’s a last choice. WHL kids agents have told a couple we know to go to other camps other than Arizona as they look at the whole encompassing outlook not just happy to draft!

 

[Lady Stanley]

By 2008 Wheeler probably didn't know what exactly was going to happen (NHL taking ownership) but he had a good clue it was going to be a dumpster fire after Ellman sold the team to Moyes in 2006.

Wheeler grew up a true jet, he refused to sign with jet 1.0 and waited for jet 2.0

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Not the onion?

The Sports Onion. Might as well be.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

You are such a brilliant business mind you are posting on HFBoard and not on private jet somewhere.

Mind your business bro.

I had a post that got yanked for saying the same thing, but...yeah, this.

That's hilarious. One of us is posting data, facts, charts, looking for the attendance trends compared to team win percentage, the United States economy, or the ownership debacle headlines; and one of us is just saying "IT'S A FAILED MARKET! LOW ATTENDANCE! LOST MONEY! FAIL FAIL FAIL!" over and over again.

you mean like a stubborn child who can't get his way?

 

[awfulwaffle]

Actually I have several friends playing in the NHL and have billeted multiple players who played WHL and NCAA. NHL friends say no one wants to sign in Arizona at all, it’s a last choice. WHL kids agents have told a couple we know to go to other camps other than Arizona as they look at the whole encompassing outlook not just happy to draft!

Assuming you have your sources, sounds like a problem with players and agents. Coyotes weren't even the worst team in the league.

 

[Stumbledore]

Assuming you have your sources, sounds like a problem with players and agents. Coyotes weren't even the worst team in the league.

I expect that "worst team" is an entirely subjective opinion. For some of us, factors like management, finances, state taxes, local politics and heat would influence where we want to live. For others, things like local club scene, nightlife, proximity to marketing opportunities and babes would be taken into consideration.