CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Headshot77]

The Dumpster fire of ownership and bankruptcy and relocation talk KEEPS THE FANS AWAY.

I'd argue that there's almost no way to repair the Coyotes brand at this point in Arizona. Arizona is a good hockey market but the earth is thoroughly salted at this point.

 

[Shwan]

That would be brilliant and so wonderfully sketchy. I'm here for it.

Unfortunately it's impossible unless Craig Morgan is wrong. ARS 5-1304 D 1 states

Event wagering in this state through an event wagering facility within a five-block radius of the event wagering operator's sports facility or, in the case of a designee, the sports facility or the designating owner, operator or promoter of a professional sports team, event or franchise.

Unless Arizona legislature uses some other measure, 5 blocks is about a quarter mile.

The reservation line runs North/South alonge pima road so he would only be able to build this hypothetical sportsbook to the west if he can't build it on reservation land.

The problem is the only thing west up to a half mile from that lot is expensive housing and a golf course. I very highly doubt the "NIMBYs" in their million dollar homes would allow a sportsbook to be built in the middle of their neighborhood.

 

[Yukon Joe]

B. The fact that the SCHEME to use the bankruptcy court to by-pass NHL rules on team sales and relocation required the team to be financially insolvent so he COULD file for bankruptcy. AKA, they ran up massive losses on purpose.

C. Moyes was siphoning money away from the team to his other companies: Leasing office space from his real estate company, and having a deal with his trucking company -- that they didn't actually need or use -- just to move tens of millions from the Coyotes to his other companies.

D. The attendance and revenue issues the Coyotes had were EXPONENTIALLY WORSE because of the decades of turmoil that Moyes CREATED by placing the team in bankruptcy. Attendance plummeted by 4000 fans PER GAME from the day he filed for bankruptcy for years.


The NHL has lost a ton of money on the Coyotes debacle. But the Coyotes aren't a financial debacle BECAUSE OF THE COYOTES as a business. They're a debacle because of the financial malpractice of Jerry Moyes and how much it has cost to clean up the mess.

I don't have much of an issue with most of what you said, but I did want to address the idea that putting the team into bankruptcy was a "scheme" by Moyes.

You can point to lots of examples of a corporation goes into bankruptcy, restructures, and comes out of bankruptcy reasonably successful. That is the entire point of bankruptcy protection after all - to protect otherwise viable businesses who just have too much debt.

But you have to focus on how it is done. In bankruptcy, ownership is wiped out, and debt is converted into new shares.

I would not call putting the Yotes into bankruptcy a "scheme" by Mores because by doing so he lost the team. He walked away from the team with nothing to show for it.

 

[Llama19]

Coyotes considering arena sites anywhere that will have them and will give them tax breaks

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2023/06/20/20146/coyotes-considering-arena-sites-anywhere-that-will-have-them-and-will-give-them-tax-breaks/

 

[MeHateHe]

Coyotes considering arena sites anywhere that will have them and will give them tax breaks

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2023/06/20/20146/coyotes-considering-arena-sites-anywhere-that-will-have-them-and-will-give-them-tax-breaks/

Not the onion?

 

[Shwan]

Coyotes considering arena sites anywhere that will have them and will give them tax breaks

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2023/06/20/20146/coyotes-considering-arena-sites-anywhere-that-will-have-them-and-will-give-them-tax-breaks/

What's truly hilarious is that first site on Alma/202 is an inert landfill. I would assume it's probably not as difficult to clean up as the Tempe landfill but i would imagine a land study of some sort would have to be in order.

 

[KevFu]

Like Clockwork.

"Everything's Fine!"

Except Xavier Gutierrez already went on record back in January saying the team is on track to be in the red $10M+

Both those things can be true.

This is part of what I was talking about with the Moyes bankruptcy and how tons of things that have nothing to do with the "normally running a hockey business" show up in teams profit/loss.

How much did they spend on the arena project? Putting together bids and proposals cost money. Architects, consultants and lawyers cost money whether you build it or not. Presentation and lobbying. Advertising. That adds up.

There are tons of things that show up in a team's profit/loss that have no actual relevance to how viable the hockey business is in terms of "revenue vs expenses." You expect that a loss means the whole operation is a doomed failure that can't work, which is hardly ever the case.


The ultimate example is the New York Mets after the Bernie Madoff scandal. Cataclysmic red ink for 15 years. But the baseball operation of Revenue vs Expenses are always going to be excellent in New York.

Every member of the Big Four leagues is going to be totally viable as a business when you're only talking "will revenue be enough to cover the minimum expenses to operate?" Hell yes, by a long shot. (Again, COVID. MLB sold no tickets and no one joined Oakland and Tampa in the "problem" category).

It's when you bring in expenses outside of just running a team onto the team ledger: Debt from buying the team, or an arena project, or getting caught in a con man's Ponzi scheme, that teams look like financial disasters.

Which is why so many people in this thread are saying that the Phoenix market needs a reset button. There's nothing about the PHX market that makes it any different than Florida, Dallas or Houston.

 

[Shwan]

Which is why so many people in this thread are saying that the Phoenix market needs a reset button. There's nothing about the PHX market that makes it any different than Florida, Dallas or Houston.

I just used to think when people say "the market isn't here" I translated that to "The Coyotes will never be able to convert them" but you've corrected my viewpoint that there are people that legit think the sport can't work here, and those people can pound sand.

If the coyotes move I'll definitely be one of probably many people that will pick up the slack with my donations to local youth leagues.

 

[KevFu]

I don't have much of an issue with most of what you said, but I did want to address the idea that putting the team into bankruptcy was a "scheme" by Moyes.

You can point to lots of examples of a corporation goes into bankruptcy, restructures, and comes out of bankruptcy reasonably successful. That is the entire point of bankruptcy protection after all - to protect otherwise viable businesses who just have too much debt.

But you have to focus on how it is done. In bankruptcy, ownership is wiped out, and debt is converted into new shares.

I would not call putting the Yotes into bankruptcy a "scheme" by Mores because by doing so he lost the team. He walked away from the team with nothing to show for it.

Oh sure. Totally agree with most of that -- the prime example is the Dallas Stars. Hicks used them as leverage for his purchase of Liverpool and used bankruptcy to reorganize all his debt. The Stars had an attendance hiccup because of the headlines; but everything was totally fine.


The reason I said that Moyes putting the team into bankruptcy was a scheme was because it meets the definition of a scheme: He went to bankruptcy court with the offer to buy the team from JB to move to Hamilton. The only reason to use bankruptcy court was to circumvent the NHL's ownership transfer, relocation and territorial rights policies. He was asking the JUDGE to approve JB as owner, approve relocation and territorial rights instead of the NHL.

You say it isn't a scheme because he walked away with nothing. Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't that the expected result and what you mean by "In bankruptcy, ownership is wiped out, and debt is converted into new shares" though? If bankruptcy is going to wipe him out, then why not go to the NHL with the JB offer?

And again, Moyes had the Coyotes leasing office space from a property that he owned. The Coyotes didn't need the space and didn't actually use it. The only reasons to do so is: (a) to create the illusion that the Coyotes needed to go into bankruptcy -- which is a scheme; or (b) to keep that money for himself by transferring it out of the Coyotes so it's not an asset distributed by bankruptcy court, which is also a scheme. Dude was scheming.

 

[oldunclehue]

Oh sure. Totally agree with most of that -- the prime example is the Dallas Stars. Hicks used them as leverage for his purchase of Liverpool and used bankruptcy to reorganize all his debt. The Stars had an attendance hiccup because of the headlines; but everything was totally fine.


The reason I said that Moyes putting the team into bankruptcy was a scheme was because it meets the definition of a scheme: He went to bankruptcy court with the offer to buy the team from JB to move to Hamilton. The only reason to use bankruptcy court was to circumvent the NHL's ownership transfer, relocation and territorial rights policies. He was asking the JUDGE to approve JB as owner, approve relocation and territorial rights instead of the NHL.

You say it isn't a scheme because he walked away with nothing. Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't that the expected result and what you mean by "In bankruptcy, ownership is wiped out, and debt is converted into new shares" though? If bankruptcy is going to wipe him out, then why not go to the NHL with the JB offer?

And again, Moyes had the Coyotes leasing office space from a property that he owned. The Coyotes didn't need the space and didn't actually use it. The only reasons to do so is: (a) to create the illusion that the Coyotes needed to go into bankruptcy -- which is a scheme; or (b) to keep that money for himself by transferring it out of the Coyotes so it's not an asset distributed by bankruptcy court, which is also a scheme. Dude was scheming.

Honestly that is so far in the passed that really it doesn't matter. Everyone knows he tried to circumvent the NHL by going through the court to sell to JB, the NHL didn't let it happen.

Future of this team is whats on everyones mind and the fact they haven't said a THING about a plan B or Plan C and we are getting closer and closer to the draft is kind of concerning. Usually a draft is a celebration time for players and teams. But with some much doubt on the organization and its future location, fans can't get excited and players drafted kind of have their biggest accomplishment clouded by the mess this is.

I'm impatiently waiting on this.

I agree with @Yukon Joe in the fact I think I like the business side of Hockey more then actual hockey.

 

[patnyrnyg]

In that case, the original sin happened before the Yotes moved the Valley. John Ziegler, bless his heart, adamantly said no when asked by Jerry Colangelo if the NHL was ever a possibility in Phoenix when building the America West Arena. Colangelo took him at face value & proceeded to build an asymmetrical arena without hockey as a consideration.

Plus the teams weren't really "bundled". The Suns were owned by Colangelo who controlled the building. The Yotes couldn't survive as tenant, so unless Colangelo bought them, eventually this saga still would've played out at some point. (Think of the entertainment all of us would've missed out on. Apologies to Yotes fans...none of this is enjoyable for them.)

I remember reading something about there being a time when the value was in owning the team and the arena was a burden. Not sure if the writer was to the time period when Colangelo was talking to Ziegler. Just amazing how it has completely changed.

 

[JimAnchower]

Can the Coyotes generate enough revenue from an arena deal on Salt River land, when they probably can't do a sports book nor build residences? Companion to article posted earlier.

 

[KevFu]

Honestly that is so far in the passed that really it doesn't matter.

Amen.

Future of this team is whats on everyones mind and the fact they haven't said a THING about a plan B or Plan C and we are getting closer and closer to the draft is kind of concerning.

I'm impatiently waiting on this.

Yeah. My main cause for rambling on with thousands of words and visual aides is that a time when the Coyotes had an actual modern NHL arena in a good location that was accessible to the whole market to maximize attendance and revenues... still hasn't happened since the left Winnipeg.

As an Islanders fan, I relate to that. We share the same basic elements, but flip-flopped. They went from an old NBA arena to a new arena way too far west of the metro area; The Islanders went from an old NHL arena with a terrible lease, to a new NBA arena too far west of the fan population. 25+ years of financial hardship, all we needed was a the new place, near our fans, and we'd look like all the other teams 10-20 in the NHL in revenue.

I wanted to see what happened to the Coyotes finances and perception if they got the Tempe Arena. I suspect we'd hear another decade of "the market, the market, the market" until one day, it's like "Actually, they're...between Dallas and Florida"

 

[KevFu]

I agree with @Yukon Joe in the fact I think I like the business side of Hockey more then actual hockey.

I like TALKING about the business side of sports more than talking about actual sports. Because sports talk is either pointless and stupid (like 10,000 hours of TV/Radio devoted to: MJ or LeBron, is Eli Manning an Eli QB, the Packers QB might not be on the Packers anymore).

OR it's worthwhile in way that immediately makes you you feel powerless/helpless. I.E - the Mets should DFA Daniel Vogelbach, bat Alvarez 5th, use Vientos and Alvarez as the DH, and go to a six-man rotation... Then the lineup comes out and they don't do any of that, and you helplessly watch the Mets lose again.


With the sports business stuff, I feel like there's a smarter, better way to do things. We can discover or solve things that MAKE SPORTS BETTER.

Brains crave order, logic and reason (this is why conspiracy theories start: JFK and 9/11 are MASSIVE events and it's just some skinny loser that did it? Those scales aren't balanced, so something ELSE needs to be added to the other side. Like the US Government. Then people get the self-esteem boost from "I'm smarter than all the sheep who believe the official story." Trust me, I'm going somewhere with this..).

Franchise placement, expansion, realignment, scheduling... That's order, logic and reason. And coming up with an idea that makes perfect business sense, optimizes how a sports league operate and is just awesome for fans and what they want... THAT makes me feel smarter than all the people who went to law school or business school and now make decisions for the NHL, MLB, MLS, NFL, NBA, WNBA or college conferences.

No one is going to look at my MLB four-league plan and say "dude, take off your tin-foil hat, you've gone too far down the rabbit hole." Hopefully they say "Wow, that IS so much better."

Plus, you know, I'm bored at work.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

Can the Coyotes generate enough revenue from an arena deal on Salt River land, when they probably can't do a sports book nor build residences? Companion to article posted earlier.

Personally, I give PHNX about as much cred as I anybody with mo contacts to actual news.

They obviously read HF as every single post is talked about, a day or so after.

My opinion. They do a good job in online shows, but the bitterness in opposed views is non-existent.

I used to think Morgan was open to views, but to hear swearing and repeating stuff reported, on this site mind you, is just hack.

Ear on the ground is nice, ear picking up random ground stuff is... Just that.

Again, my opinion.

 

[Skidooboy]

Atlanta moved because the people of the market "weren't good enough to keep it"
IF the Yotes move it'll be because they didn't "appreciate" the Ferrari that was being handed to them
If the Canes (my team) had moved, it would be because our tiny NC brains can't understand or enjoy the game

But it's never the fans' fault when a northern market struggles or leaves.

It's not even thinly veiled xenophobia, and it's so depressing that people who think the way @KevFu does don't seem to be very common around these parts.

You're wrong, and we've proven it dozens and dozens of times over the last 20+ years on this site.

The Winnipeg Jets moved. That wasn't "The Market" it was the circumstances, because when the Jets 2.0 came back, they were middle of the pack financially.

The Quebec Nordiques moved. That wasn't "The Market" it was the circumstances because everyone wants them to come back.

The Minnesota North Stars moved. That wasn't "The Market" it was the circumstances, because when the Wild showed up, they've been middle of the pack financially for like 20 years.

Hell, the Oakland Seals moved, but the Sharks have been middle of the pack financially for 20 years.

The NY Rangers, New Jersey Devils and NY Islanders share a market and WERE ranked 1st, 15th and 29th in revenues. So it's NOT the MARKET causing that, it's the circumstance, because when UBS Arena opened, the Islanders moved to like 10-14 in revenue.

But hey, keep blaming the market and not circumstance.

lol not a fan of history are you. sure there lots of circumstances involved in any failing team.
I can't help but notice you ignore history of the entire CBA, revenue-sharing, the salary cap, and the modern TV marketing deals. and it's impact.

as for Atlanta? there was no market and the owner recognized it,he was tired of losing money, and supporting a team with no fans. and was happy to sell he team and move on.

again...this bullshit about drive times is awful tiring to hear. which is harder, a commute in Toronto in a January snow storm or a commute from Tempe to Glendale?
Fans will drive to the game and were tired of being told "AZ fans can't be f***ed to drive to a game...but the market is strong" it's laughable.

the Coyotes have failed because they can't sell tickets, don't sell merch, don't generate TV audiences or Revenue, and have lost every single owner, partner, stakeholder and taxpayer involved hundreds of millions if not Billions of dollars. It was a failed hockey market long before the 'Yotes showed up. and it's a failed market and the last 26 years have made that abundantly clear to anyone who isn't a acting like a disobedient child screaming "NONONONONONONO I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"

 

[Brodie]

It doesn't really matter WHY the Coyotes have failed to generate a substantial fanbase, what matters is that the lack of one has harmed them in terms of leverage first with Glendale and now with other municipalities

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

lol not a fan of history are you.

as for Atlanta? there was no market and the owner recognized it,he was tired of losing money, and supporting a team with no fans. and was happy to sell he team and move on.

This is the funniest post I've read in a long time. Love the hypocritical stance. "Not a fan of history" so you decide to make up your own.

The owners didn't want the Thrashers at sale (it's not a "he", it was a group). It's been discussed here for over a decade now and there is court documents stating it. They tried to negotiate only buying the arena and Hawks, but the sale was for the package or nothing. So the ownership group bought the package and immediately tried to sell the Thrashers. Had nothing to do with the market (which had good attendance prior to the sale), they just didn't want a hockey team. Only reason they couldn't sell right away was because they went to court to sue each other and weren't allowed to make a sale.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Honestly that is so far in the passed that really it doesn't matter. Everyone knows he tried to circumvent the NHL by going through the court to sell to JB, the NHL didn't let it happen.

Future of this team is whats on everyones mind and the fact they haven't said a THING about a plan B or Plan C and we are getting closer and closer to the draft is kind of concerning. Usually a draft is a celebration time for players and teams. But with some much doubt on the organization and its future location, fans can't get excited and players drafted kind of have their biggest accomplishment clouded by the mess this is.

I'm impatiently waiting on this.

I agree with @Yukon Joe in the fact I think I like the business side of Hockey more then actual hockey.

What a load of bullcrap. I guarantee the players aren't thinking "Oh man I got drafted by the Coyotes". Most of these guys are 3-4 years away from actually possibly playing in the NHL as it is. The draft is a total crapshoot.

 

[GordonGraham]

Just saw an article that the Coyotes will be playing not 1 not 2 but 3 games on the same day, September 23, i remember many teams having split squads and playing 2 preseason game the same day but 3??? They must really need that money

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

 

[oldunclehue]

What a load of bullcrap. I guarantee the players aren't thinking "Oh man I got drafted by the Coyotes". Most of these guys are 3-4 years away from actually possibly playing in the NHL as it is. The draft is a total crapshoot.

Oh ya? You mean to tell me that star players who have agents, parents, advisors, nutritionists and are surrounded by multiple others who tell them how amazing they are might maybe not want to be drafted by an NHL team with no arena, no arena plan, unknown if they will stay in current location and only 12 plays on their roster. I mean from an outsider looking in getting drafted by an NHL team is HUGE. But for many of these kids on this trajectory for most of their lives, they want fame and fortune. Not instability and unknown.

 

[Skidooboy]

This is the funniest post I've read in a long time. Love the hypocritical stance. "Not a fan of history" so you decide to make up your own.

The owners didn't want the Thrashers at sale (it's not a "he", it was a group). It's been discussed here for over a decade now and there is court documents stating it. They tried to negotiate only buying the arena and Hawks, but the sale was for the package or nothing. So the ownership group bought the package and immediately tried to sell the Thrashers. Had nothing to do with the market (which had good attendance prior to the sale), they just didn't want a hockey team. Only reason they couldn't sell right away was because they went to court to sue each other and weren't allowed to make a sale.

lol the Spirit group chose to have monster trucks and concerts 42 times a year(plus preseason) over having an NHL team because they could make more money with the truck's and concerts and Ice Capades than they could hockey. end of story.

it doesn't atter what "attendance is" if people are paying loss leader prices for tickets. which is exactly what was happening. borth in Atlanta and Pheonix/Glendale/AZ
there is NO REVENUE. because the fans won't pay the prices or fill the barn.

any excuse you come up with about marketing and owners and commutes is just BS.
REVENUE is what matters. nobody cares if you got 16,000 atendees at a $15 tickets and are losing $250,000 a game because of it......

There is not enough Revenue to justify the franchise. and never has been. Period.

It's why we are here, 26 years of the bottom of the league revenue,TV share, Advertising,corporate support, merch sales, and ticket sales. 26 years at the bottom, losing 10's of millions a year, with no solid plan to change that........

and here you are saying "if we throw another BIllion at it it'll work this time! I swear!"

 

[Mightygoose]

Just saw an article that the Coyotes will be playing not 1 not 2 but 3 games on the same day, September 23, i remember many teams having split squads and playing 2 preseason game the same day but 3??? They must really need that money

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

None of their pre season games will be at Mullet. Actually only one in the state overall, their last one in Tuscon

 

[BKIslandersFan]

lol the Spirit group chose to have monster trucks and concerts 42 times a year(plus preseason) over having an NHL team because they could make more money with the truck's and concerts and Ice Capades than they could hockey. end of story.

it doesn't atter what "attendance is" if people are paying loss leader prices for tickets. which is exactly what was happening. borth in Atlanta and Pheonix/Glendale/AZ
there is NO REVENUE. because the fans won't pay the prices or fill the barn.

any excuse you come up with about marketing and owners and commutes is just BS.
REVENUE is what matters. nobody cares if you got 16,000 atendees at a $15 tickets and are losing $250,000 a game because of it......

There is not enough Revenue to justify the franchise. and never has been. Period.

It's why we are here, 26 years of the bottom of the league revenue,TV share, Advertising,corporate support, merch sales, and ticket sales. 26 years at the bottom, losing 10's of millions a year, with no solid plan to change that........

and here you are saying "if we throw another BIllion at it it'll work this time! I swear!"

You are such a brilliant business mind you are posting on HFBoard and not on private jet somewhere.

Mind your business bro.

 

[bleedblue94]

It's unfortunate bc everything in the market has been rushed whatever they do whenever they do it. Hockey can and will succeed there but it really seems the market needs a restart, a chance to take a break, miss hockey a little, let the business men and gov figure out plans without each thinking they can leverage the other.

Really believe the move is to relocate to another major USA market (so there isn't a perceived step back for the league), let things develop in arz, and then put an expansion team in there.

Craig Morgan was on marek today and this was one of the first times I haven't heard him laughing at relocation or ticking clock comments. He usually brushes that stuff off but he openly acknowledged it today, while also saying the team is actively negotiating on multiple sites.

Again, I feel awful for the coyotes fans, no direction, no stability.