CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[TheLegend]

It doesn't really matter WHY the Coyotes have failed to generate a substantial fanbase, what matters is that the lack of one has harmed them in terms of leverage first with Glendale and now with other municipalities

Chicken and egg syndrome.

There's a fanbase there. But when you're getting pelted with relocation rumors every other month, or some self inflicted shot to the foot by an ownership group what are you going to do??

 

[TheLegend]

, Pissing contest... Again. They did we did they should.
While I enjoyed reading it, most, Have been through EVERY quote, article..

Morgan knows nothing. Canadian media, American media, same.
Alex knows something... Just not enough.
If he did. This thread would be closed.

I stayed away to read... Legend, mm, hell got a few out out of the boonies. Yes, Casual...

Opinions matter. Always. Keep at it folks.

Banter works..

I've been around.

There's just isn't any solid news to talk about, other than look at what sites that Craig Morgan listed,

I'd LOVE to mull those things over and figure what the potential for each is, but most everyone here wants to either play cherry pick things just to slag the franchise or stoke decade old narratives.

 

[TheLegend]

If you think that was "the ONLY issue", you obviously haven't been paying attention.

Right now it's the biggest one that pretty much outweighs everything else.

.

 

[Stumbledore]

Keep moving those goalposts.

I made the suggestion that putting a sportsbook across from the site as a possible solution. That's throwing a suggestion out.... not a Baghdad Bob moment.

Have you noticed that your comments are referred to as "throwing out a suggestion" but when other people throw out a suggestion your response is often to accuse them of moving the goalposts?

To say nothing of accusing others of cherry picking while your own "mull things over" comments are rife with cherry pits.

 

[Shwan]

Have you noticed that your comments are referred to as "throwing out a suggestion" but when other people throw out a suggestion your response is often to accuse them of moving the goalposts?

To say nothing of accusing others of cherry picking while your own "mull things over" comments are rife with cherry pits.

Have you noticed when he "throws out a suggestion" I completely debunk it, then he ignores and goes on to the next one?

Unfortunately it's impossible unless Craig Morgan is wrong. ARS 5-1304 D 1 states

Unless Arizona legislature uses some other measure, 5 blocks is about a quarter mile.

The reservation line runs North/South alonge pima road so he would only be able to build this hypothetical sportsbook to the west if he can't build it on reservation land.

The problem is the only thing west up to a half mile from that lot is expensive housing and a golf course. I very highly doubt the "NIMBYs" in their million dollar homes would allow a sportsbook to be built in the middle of their neighborhood.

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[Shwan]

Oh.... got it. It's now because he doesn't gripe to a large enough crowd (in your opinion).

Keep moving those goalposts.

Because we didn't watch Craig have to physically struggle to say the words "Saharabets has been an utter failure" on his Livestream 1.5 years after the fact (when it's safe to say) right? (Starts at 3:15 mark on the video)

Or how Craig failed to tell you in his article that the Alma School/202 site is an inert landfill, not a quarry as you people think it is.

My goalposts are firmly in the ground, thank you.

 

[KevFu]

Maybe if the Coyotes were a winning club they would have the local support to build a new rink?

That's not really the case. There's the chicken/egg thing of no money/don't win vs don't win because no money.

It's not that "no one supports building the Coyotes a new arena." It's that only like 4% of Coyotes fans are ALLOWED TO VOTE, because only TEMPE voted.

And PHOENIX spent a couple million dollars convincing non-fans to vote no.

The fans in Phoenix, Scottsdale, Glendale, Mesa, Chandler, Gilbert, Peoria, Sunrise, Goodyear, Buckey, Queen Creek, Appache Junction, Paradise Valley, Cave Creek and Avondale sat back and watched.

If there was a "Maricopa County Phoenix Sports Authority" like in Houston, and there was a vote to build an arena, that thing would sail through... Because the financial effect PER PERSON would be 27 times cheaper.

 

[KevFu]

The thing with the Mets is that everytime they were even rumored to be up for sale billionaires were falling all over themselves to put in bids. They got bought by one of the richest men in America.

Both teams also have healthy TV deals and ratings.

Contrast that to the Coyotes. Why is it everytime they are up for sale it's always some charlatan trying to buy them. What are their TV ratings even? I kept hearing that there was this huge fan base on the other side of the valley if they could only get an arena there. However if that existed why isn't there a big tv contract keeping them afloat like the Islanders always had?

Well, for starters the main difference between Mets and Coyotes would be the lease. The Mets came with the lease to the ballpark on absolutely sweetheart terms. The baseball-loving Mayor gave his beloved Yankees everything they wanted... and a matching deal to the Mets, on his way out the door when his term was expiring.

There's no "dealing with Glendale" component of the Mets.


Secondly, the Islanders TV contract isn't based on their WORTH as a broadcast asset and the fans who watch.

SportsChannel was a pioneer in "sports on cable" and signed the dynasty-era Islanders. The deal gave the Islanders the option of renewal for X dollars OR take an ownership stake in the company.

Cablevision bought SportsChannel before the Islanders deal was up. So James Dolan had to buy out that clause in the contract. He wasn't giving the Islanders an ownership stake in Cablevision (which includes MSG, MSG Network, the Rangers/Knicks, etc).

And the Islanders owner at the time, was John Spano, a crook who needed money fast. So he cut a deal. The Islanders got FIVE TIMES the market rate on a 25-year contract that saved the team from relocating when they had 15 years to go on their horrible lease.

 

[KevFu]

I'm more concerned with the situation of cutting Dbacks, Which will lead to the Suns most likely geting out of their contract and so they will then break their contract with the Coyotes to get completely out of the Arizona Market because even if it's dirt cheap to keep the Coyotes it's not economical for them to *just* carry one severely underperforming NHL team in this region.

Yeah, the domino effect is a concern.

But the bubble is bursting, period. The Suns are going to Scripps (Ion) if they can, which leads one to believe the Coyotes can follow suit.

And it actually could be good for them. If the money is disappearing from the bubble bursting anyway, you might as well go for the exposure. Being on OTA is max exposure.

 

[Lady Stanley]

with the draft just around the corner, I imagine we could be getting a 5am sunday morning decision being made.

 

[WaW]

Question, wondering if anyone knows for sure without resorting to hostile opinions and strawmanning.

Are the Coyotes revenues currently counting towards the cap calculation? Since gate revenues are the largest factor in determining the cap, I'm curious if the Coyotes finances are currently excluded from the formula in determining the salary cap. It's just so bizarre with the 5k seat arena.

 

[Shwan]

Question, wondering if anyone knows for sure without resorting to hostile opinions and strawmanning.

Are the Coyotes revenues currently counting towards the cap calculation? Since gate revenues are the largest factor in determining the cap, I'm curious if the Coyotes finances are currently excluded from the formula in determining the salary cap. It's just so bizarre with the 5k seat arena.

I don't see why it wouldn't be. While waiting for the official numbers to come out, the gate revenue at Mullet does look to be tracking higher than what it was at Gila River either way.

As the players still need to pay of ~$70M of the escrow anyways the whole Coyotes playing in a college arena is a red herring until next off-season when Gary and the owners will likely entertain a pretty sizeable increase and they will probably take into consideration the Coyotes future plans more than their current situation if the data does support that the Coyotes are generating more revenue for the league, but still are operating at a sizeable loss for the team.

 

[WaW]

I don't see why it wouldn't be. While waiting for the official numbers to come out, the gate revenue at Mullet does look to be tracking higher than what it was at Gila River either way.

As the players still need to pay of ~$70M of the escrow anyways the whole Coyotes playing in a college arena is a red herring until next off-season when Gary and the owners will likely entertain a pretty sizeable increase and they will probably take into consideration the Coyotes future plans more than their current situation if the data does support that the Coyotes are generating more revenue for the league, but still are operating at a sizeable loss for the team.

Thanks for the info. Wasn't aware the revenues were higher but I guess that isn't all that surprising.

 

[aqib]

Well, for starters the main difference between Mets and Coyotes would be the lease. The Mets came with the lease to the ballpark on absolutely sweetheart terms. The baseball-loving Mayor gave his beloved Yankees everything they wanted... and a matching deal to the Mets, on his way out the door when his term was expiring.

There's no "dealing with Glendale" component of the Mets.


Secondly, the Islanders TV contract isn't based on their WORTH as a broadcast asset and the fans who watch.

SportsChannel was a pioneer in "sports on cable" and signed the dynasty-era Islanders. The deal gave the Islanders the option of renewal for X dollars OR take an ownership stake in the company.

Cablevision bought SportsChannel before the Islanders deal was up. So James Dolan had to buy out that clause in the contract. He wasn't giving the Islanders an ownership stake in Cablevision (which includes MSG, MSG Network, the Rangers/Knicks, etc).

And the Islanders owner at the time, was John Spano, a crook who needed money fast. So he cut a deal. The Islanders got FIVE TIMES the market rate on a 25-year contract that saved the team from relocating when they had 15 years to go on their horrible lease.

Stop it. The deals that you are referring to that Giuliani made on his way out the door were cancelled by Bloomberg when he came in.
Construction on CitiField didn't begin until 2006 when Bl

Well, for starters the main difference between Mets and Coyotes would be the lease. The Mets came with the lease to the ballpark on absolutely sweetheart terms. The baseball-loving Mayor gave his beloved Yankees everything they wanted... and a matching deal to the Mets, on his way out the door when his term was expiring.

There's no "dealing with Glendale" component of the Mets.


Secondly, the Islanders TV contract isn't based on their WORTH as a broadcast asset and the fans who watch.

SportsChannel was a pioneer in "sports on cable" and signed the dynasty-era Islanders. The deal gave the Islanders the option of renewal for X dollars OR take an ownership stake in the company.

Cablevision bought SportsChannel before the Islanders deal was up. So James Dolan had to buy out that clause in the contract. He wasn't giving the Islanders an ownership stake in Cablevision (which includes MSG, MSG Network, the Rangers/Knicks, etc).

And the Islanders owner at the time, was John Spano, a crook who needed money fast. So he cut a deal. The Islanders got FIVE TIMES the market rate on a 25-year contract that saved the team from relocating when they had 15 years to go on their horrible lease.

Stop it. The deal for the Mets and Yankees stadiums that were signed by Giuliani at the end of 2001 was cancelled by Bloomberg early in his term. He did new deals where the city chipped in for infrastructure but the stadium itself the Mets pay the construction bonds. The reason billionaires had been lining up for the team is because they have strong fan support in a huge market.
I don't remember what year the Islanders extended the cable deal but James Dolan wasn't in charge back then so I'll have to look up if the SportsChannel stuff is accurate because the rest of the post was way off.

 

[TheLegend]

Have you noticed that your comments are referred to as "throwing out a suggestion" but when other people throw out a suggestion your response is often to accuse them of moving the goalposts?

To say nothing of accusing others of cherry picking while your own "mull things over" comments are rife with cherry pits.

I’ve only accused you of moving goalposts… and I’m not the only one who has but carry on.

 

[TheLegend]

Because we didn't watch Craig have to physically struggle to say the words "Saharabets has been an utter failure" on his Livestream 1.5 years after the fact (when it's safe to say) right? (Starts at 3:15 mark on the video)

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Or how Craig failed to tell you in his article that the Alma School/202 site is an inert landfill, not a quarry as you people think it is.

My goalposts are firmly in the ground, thank you.

So? It was a quarry at one point. When you get done digging materials out you have to do something with the big hole you created and an inert landfill seems to be a practical solution (if not a profitable one.)

They also do diesel truck repairs on the site as well. A spin off from the quarry work when it was more like the maintenance shop

Never the less.. it’s a site the Coyotes are looking at.

So rather than being so obsessed with your attempts to spin that “Craig Morgan, propaganda king” narrative, maybe you can come up with some actual pros and cons of how that site could (or could not) work.

 

[Shwan]

So? It was a quarry at one point. When you get done digging materials out you have to do something with the big hole you created and an inert landfill seems to be a practical solution (if not a profitable one.)

They also do diesel truck repairs on the site as well. A spin off from the quarry work when it was more like the maintenance shop

Never the less.. it’s a site the Coyotes are looking at.

So rather than being so obsessed with your attempts to spin that “Craig Morgan, propaganda king” narrative, maybe you can come up with some actual pros and cons of how that site could (or could not) work.

You're Moving goalposts.

 

[TheLegend]

I don't see why it wouldn't be. While waiting for the official numbers to come out, the gate revenue at Mullet does look to be tracking higher than what it was at Gila River either way.

As the players still need to pay of ~$70M of the escrow anyways the whole Coyotes playing in a college arena is a red herring until next off-season when Gary and the owners will likely entertain a pretty sizeable increase and they will probably take into consideration the Coyotes future plans more than their current situation if the data does support that the Coyotes are generating more revenue for the league, but still are operating at a sizeable loss for the team.

Oh my….

You spend a whole post pining on about Craig Morgan, Propagandist over what’s a landfill or quarry. And now you’re admitting here that what Craig mentioned in that same podcast (you provided above) about the Coyotes actually doing better at Mullett than in Glendale the year before looks to be true???

Think I’m going to faint.

 

[TheLegend]

You're Moving goalposts.

And you’re deflecting.

 

[Shwan]

Oh my….

You spend a whole post pining on about Craig Morgan, Propagandist over what’s a landfill or quarry. And now you’re admitting here that what Craig mentioned in that same podcast (you provided above) about the Coyotes actually doing better at Mullett than in Glendale the year before looks to be true???

Think I’m going to faint.

Uhh I'm going off the information Xavier Gutierrez gave? In the article I linked that was dated in January.

We’re meeting our ticketing projections. We knew we’d be making more than our previous location [Glendale’s Gila River Arena].

Leave it to Craig to feed you 4 month old information and you eat it right up lol.

 

[Shwan]

And you’re deflecting.

No, you just (still) have poor reading comprehension.

I gave you a Con, it's an inert landfill, which would presumably need *some* form of land study before ground could be broken, which would take time.

Then there's the super careful remediation the Coyotes will want to do here based on Nick Wood's previous comments:

Coyotes attorney Nick Wood defended the remediation plans, saying they are based on solid expert input that the organization has no choice but to remove all 1.5 million tons of soil on the property.

He explained that it isn't a matter of toxicity or whether the entire site qualifies as a landfill. About 90% of it is still loaded with trash that the Coyotes contend must be dug up to ensure the project's structural integrity.

Unaddressed landfill materials can create voids, or weak points on the site, the land use attorney argued. He added that even small amounts of decomposing wood or paper left behind can create methane bubbles in the soil that could ultimately destroy any buildings the Coyotes construct on the property.

So it's interesting the team thinks they can clean this site up in a very timely manner.......unless the team was lying about the Tempe site to squeeze more money out of the city of course.

So yeah, about your moving goalposts yeah?

 

[Stumbledore]

I’ve only accused you of moving goalposts… and I’m not the only one who has but carry on.

I wasn't referring to any comments you made towards me, but carry on indeed.

 

[KevFu]

Stop it. The deal for the Mets and Yankees stadiums that were signed by Giuliani at the end of 2001 was cancelled by Bloomberg early in his term. He did new deals where the city chipped in for infrastructure but the stadium itself the Mets pay the construction bonds. The reason billionaires had been lining up for the team is because they have strong fan support in a huge market.

I don't remember what year the Islanders extended the cable deal but James Dolan wasn't in charge back then so I'll have to look up if the SportsChannel stuff is accurate because the rest of the post was way off.

Bloomberg did new FUNDING deals for construction with the teams, but the terms of the LEASE the Mets have -- who gets revenues, what rent/taxes are paid, etc -- was virtually unchanged from what Giuliani drew up. The Mets have a 40-year lease, their stadium is on a subway line. They have the development rights to Willets Point, not someone else. If you want to haggle on details of differences, which mayor put what into the deal... go right ahead. The point is, the arena/stadium situation is night and day different between the Mets and Coyotes, and the prime difference is the role the Glendale government played with the Coyotes.


As for the Islanders, again, you're haggling over details I'm trying to remember from years ago that have been put behind NYT and Newsday pay-walls since. Charles, James, who cares. The point is that the Islanders signed a deal with SportsChannel, Cablevision bought SportsChannel, and thus the clause converted from SportsChannel to Cablevision... and the clause had to be bought out.

The details are here: TV SPORTS; Rich Cable Deal Lessens Isles' Misery (Published 1999)

It's behind a paywall. I found a page that cribs some lines from the article:

"Cablevision recoiled at the possibility of paying the Islanders 18 1/2 percent of total FSNY-MSG revenues. In the talks, the team got an extension through the 2030-31 season, which features yearly payments rising from $14.8 million next season and $17.5 million in 2000-1 to $36 million in the final year, and the possibility of lousy performances causing a breach disappeared from the final contract."

 

[TheLegend]

I wasn't referring to any comments you made towards me, but carry on indeed.

That wasn’t directed at you, though.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Are there any good articles that summarize what happened with Glendale/Gila River Arena?

Someday there will be a book telling the entire story of this saga.

I plan to read the first 6 volumes and then decide whether to commit to the whole series.