CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[TheLegend]

So if the land that the Meruelo Group wants doesn't make onto next weeks agenda, do they need to wait another month for the next Arizona Land Trust meeting (I'm guessing it's a monthly meeting). How far back would this push back the timeline for the auction?

I’m hearing it will make it on there. But if it doesn’t it would have to go another month unless the board calls a special meeting.

But the Meruelo Group also has two other parcels they have LOIs out on. One we know about in Mesa because it was reported on but there’s one another one we don’t know anything about.

 

[Space umpire]

You missed the sarcasm there.

Sarcasm justifies a lack of ability to compose a sentence?

 

[Space umpire]

You say that if the Yotes leave, the Valley might never get another NHL club again. Is it really that radioactive? Look at the the projected economic growth of the PHX metro area. And besides, wouldn't everyone welcome a completely fresh start with a brand new franchise?

I do get what you're saying about salted earth. Yeah, this has gone on so long that I think that even if they did get an arena deal done, they should STRONGLY consider a complete rebranding. Retire the Coyotes brand and reboot. Do a massive naming contest and get the whole community involved and invested.

It’s not radioactive at all. (Though many non AZ fans want it to be.
Look at Hartford and Quebec City.
You don’t give up a team once you have one.

All they need is an arena. They have gotten fan support and they have an improving squad.

 

[dj4aces]

It’s not radioactive at all. (Though many non AZ fans want it to be.
Look at Hartford and Quebec City.
You don’t give up a team once you have one.

All they need is an arena. They have gotten fan support and they have an improving squad.

Hartford and QC are small markets with little to no growth potential and a limited corporate presence. Winnipeg was largely seen as belonging in this same category until the Thrashers moved there. Meanwhile, Phoenix is a large and growing market with corporations moving into the area daily, seemingly.

You're not wrong, in the sense that once you have a team, you never give it up. However, I would argue the league is well aware of what's happened in Phoenix over the last 15 years, and if the Coyotes do end up leaving the market, the league will be back.

 

[Section 325]

It’s not radioactive at all. (Though many non AZ fans want it to be.
Look at Hartford and Quebec City.
You don’t give up a team once you have one.

All they need is an arena. They have gotten fan support and they have an improving squad.

While I don't think the entire situation is "radioactive", I definitely think that the lease dispute with Glendale made the idea of the Coyotes getting help from any local government pretty radioactive. The whole TSE situation was pretty indicative of that. If the Coyotes are as capable as they say they are of building everything on their own, I think this entire situation is fixable.

Nothing is impossible with the Coyotes, hahaha. How many threads is this now about it being the Coyotes "last chance" in the Valley?

 

[Yukon Joe]

While I don't think the entire situation is "radioactive", I definitely think that the lease dispute with Glendale made the idea of the Coyotes getting help from any local government pretty radioactive. The whole TSE situation was pretty indicative of that. If the Coyotes are as capable as they say they are of building everything on their own, I think this entire situation is fixable.

Nothing is impossible with the Coyotes, hahaha. How many threads is this now about it being the Coyotes "last chance" in the Valley?

The thing about radioactivity is it has a half-life. If radioactive today, it might not be in 5-10 years. I mean 10 years ago nobody was thinking about Atlanta 3.0. (and I'm not saying it is radioactive)

That being said - a lot can happen in 5-10 years. What if there's a large drop in sports franchise values? What if there's another huge real estate crash in Phoenix area?

If you're a Coyotes fan you need to root to keep your team now, not think "don't worry we'll get another one".

 

[aqib]

Atlanta 2 and Denver 2 were instances where the owners of the NBA team acquired an NHL team which in turn helped them get a new arena. So why couldn't that be the case in Phoenix in 10 years?

 

[Snarky Coyote]

I think a lot of the issue is that the football and baseball arenas were rammed through, and it made people take notice. It scorched the earth in Arizona for public subsidies. Laws were changed, and loopholes were closed. It's going to be much harder to get public financing on anything related to sports and entertainment. I don't think that is going to change in 10 years. In this situation, there is no leverage to get a municipality to build a free or heavily subsidized stadium. Partly because the Coyotes did not understand the political aspects needed in the state and partially because the sweetheart deals were made prior to their stepping up to the plate. It took the NFL team 20 years to get a stadium built, and the baseball team that went to the World Series last year is trying to shake down someone for a major rebuild of their dated 25-year-old arena as we speak. I don't see anyone who was opposed to public funding softening in 10 years. The only way to get this done for the Coyotes is to build something big enough to make the arena part of a larger project. Westgate 2.0, except Westgate, never was built out close to the original plans due to the economy taking a dump shortly after the arena was opened. IMO if the Coyotes leave - they wont be coming back.

 

[awfulwaffle]

While I don't think the entire situation is "radioactive", I definitely think that the lease dispute with Glendale made the idea of the Coyotes getting help from any local government pretty radioactive. The whole TSE situation was pretty indicative of that. If the Coyotes are as capable as they say they are of building everything on their own, I think this entire situation is fixable.

Nothing is impossible with the Coyotes, hahaha. How many threads is this now about it being the Coyotes "last chance" in the Valley?

I disagree with this. Glendale didn't want to work in good faith. They wanted the Coyotes to sign a long term lease. Without looking at the details, would have included a hefty termination fee I imagine. Hindsight is 20/20, but should the Coyotes have done that and just bit the bullet, and there wouldn't be any question as to where the Coyotes were playing, sure. But we don't know the details of the lease itself that was being suggested by Glendale except for wanting an extended term.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I disagree with this. Glendale didn't want to work in good faith. They wanted the Coyotes to sign a long term lease. Without looking at the details, would have included a hefty termination fee I imagine. Hindsight is 20/20, but should the Coyotes have done that and just bit the bullet, and there wouldn't be any question as to where the Coyotes were playing, sure. But we don't know the details of the lease itself that was being suggested by Glendale except for wanting an extended term.

You have to look at the whole situation.

The City of Glendale spent a lot of money on a new arena purpose built for the Coyotes. The Yotes moved in in 2003, signing a lengthy lease (25 years?). But a mere 6 years later the team went into bankruptcy and the lease was broken. The team then demanded, and was given, $25 million per year over two years in subsidies. Later of course is how they came to move which is what you touched on.

I don't want to say who in this whole mess aagued in good faith or not, but what happened in Glendale was far from what the City expected - and yes probably does make it much more difficult for the team to negotiate with other municipalities (although clearly they still can - they did come to a deal with Tempe).

 

[Yukon Joe]

Atlanta 2 and Denver 2 were instances where the owners of the NBA team acquired an NHL team which in turn helped them get a new arena. So why couldn't that be the case in Phoenix in 10 years?

And it appears to be what's happening in SLC as well.

So yes- it could happen.

But will it? Who knows. Suns had ample opportunities to own the Coyotes in the past, but of course they're under new ownership since 2023. Owner Mat Ishbia has much more basketball connections (being a walk on player for Michigan State) so who knows his interest in hockey.

The Footprint Center is now 40 years old, but there are already two other arenas in the Phoenix area. It did undergo some renovations about 5 years ago.

So maybe in 10 years what you could propose would happen - but would it? Footprint Center is in a pretty good location, right next to downtown Phoenix and the baseball Chase Field. Seems like good transportation infrastructure.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - while a Coyotes 2.0 might happen down the road, Coyotes fans should hope and work towards making sure the current team doesn't leave.

 

[TheLegend]

You have to look at the whole situation.

Which few people have done over the years so I am thrilled that someone realizes this.

The City of Glendale spent a lot of money on a new arena purpose built for the Coyotes. The Yotes moved in in 2003, signing a lengthy lease (25 years?). But a mere 6 years later the team went into bankruptcy and the lease was broken. The team then demanded, and was given, $25 million per year over two years in subsidies. Later of course is how they came to move which is what you touched on.

30 years.... with clauses for extensions.

Original lease summary:

https://law.marquette.edu/assets/sports-law/pdf/lease-summary-phoenix-coyotes.pdf

I don't want to say who in this whole mess aagued in good faith or not, but what happened in Glendale was far from what the City expected - and yes probably does make it much more difficult for the team to negotiate with other municipalities (although clearly they still can - they did come to a deal with Tempe).

There were some bad actors on both sides, and narratives changed as the situation kept evolving over time.

But the nexus event came the day the Coyotes were separated from Westgate.

 

[Llama19]

Will Meruelo demand the same...

Will Phoenix help keep the Diamondbacks downtown? City, county privately weigh partnership

To quote:

"Maricopa County and Phoenix officials are privately considering a "partnership" on Chase Field, a move that could defuse the Arizona Diamondbacks' relocation threats and bolster economic development in downtown Phoenix.

Details of the partnership remain unclear, though government officials began internal conversations before the World Series.

Any deal could pave the way to keep the Major League Baseball team in its longtime home, ensuring continued foot traffic and tax revenue. The team's continued presence could fuel the city's hope to develop an entertainment district near the ballpark and the Phoenix Convention Center."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2024/03/07/chase-field-partnership-that-could-keep-dbacks-in-phoenix-considered/72855185007/

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Will Meruelo demand the same...

Will Phoenix help keep the Diamondbacks downtown? City, county privately weigh partnership

To quote:

"Maricopa County and Phoenix officials are privately considering a "partnership" on Chase Field, a move that could defuse the Arizona Diamondbacks' relocation threats and bolster economic development in downtown Phoenix.

Details of the partnership remain unclear, though government officials began internal conversations before the World Series.

Any deal could pave the way to keep the Major League Baseball team in its longtime home, ensuring continued foot traffic and tax revenue. The team's continued presence could fuel the city's hope to develop an entertainment district near the ballpark and the Phoenix Convention Center."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2024/03/07/chase-field-partnership-that-could-keep-dbacks-in-phoenix-considered/72855185007/

The Coyotes are not in a position to demand anything.

 

[TheLegend]

The Coyotes are not in a position to demand anything.

What makes you think that??

Diamondbacks play in a 100% publicly financed stadium sitting on 100% publicly owned land.

Meruelo wants to buy land and build an arena on his own dime.

Nothing like some non-sequitur drama because there's nothing to talk about for another week.

 

[GKJ]

What makes you think that??

Diamondbacks play in a 100% publicly financed stadium sitting on 100% publicly owned land.

Meruelo wants to buy land and build an arena on his own dime.

Nothing like some non-sequitur drama because there's nothing to talk about for another week.

Can’t threaten to leave if he’s not there to begin with.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

What makes you think that??

Diamondbacks play in a 100% publicly financed stadium sitting on 100% publicly owned land.

Meruelo wants to buy land and build an arena on his own dime.

Nothing like some non-sequitur drama because there's nothing to talk about for another week.

I don't understand.

If Meruelo is able to buy land and build an arena on his own dime he doesn't need to make demands in the first place.

 

[Llama19]

Arizona Coyotes eying land worth $68.5M for new arena. Why does it cost so much?

To quote:

"About 100 acres of state trust land in north Phoenix that the Arizona Coyotes are hoping to buy for their future home is valued at $68.5 million, according to a new appraisal.

The appraisal was filed Thursday with the Arizona State Land Department. It determines the market value of the property on the northwest corner of the Loop 101 freeway and Scottsdale Road as of mid-October, when the land was inspected.

That value is likely to become the starting price if the land is auctioned for sale.

Xavier Gutierrez, president and CEO of the Coyotes, declined to comment on the appraisal. The professional hockey team is under pressure to find a permanent arena home after Tempe voters rejected the Coyotes plans to build an entertainment district there last year."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2024/03/08/state-says-land-arizona-coyotes-eying-for-new-arena-is-worth-68-5m/72887801007/

 

[Llama19]

Now...for comparison...
this state land is on the north side of the Loop 101...
to the south...
state land was auctioned and won...
by Mayo Clinic...in the final amount of $139 million...for 228 acres...

And...just a little further east...closer to Scottsdale Rd...
HonorHealth...outbid Banner Health...for state land...
in the final amount of $84 million...for 48 acres...

 

[awfulwaffle]

You have to look at the whole situation.

The City of Glendale spent a lot of money on a new arena purpose built for the Coyotes. The Yotes moved in in 2003, signing a lengthy lease (25 years?). But a mere 6 years later the team went into bankruptcy and the lease was broken. The team then demanded, and was given, $25 million per year over two years in subsidies. Later of course is how they came to move which is what you touched on.

I don't want to say who in this whole mess aagued in good faith or not, but what happened in Glendale was far from what the City expected - and yes probably does make it much more difficult for the team to negotiate with other municipalities (although clearly they still can - they did come to a deal with Tempe).

These were all prior ownership groups though. As it stands, the team itself cannot financially be viable in Glendale(unless the owner also owned Westgate?). What is the new owner supposed to do, just bite the bullet and say "well, to make politicians happy, I guess I just have to keep losing money in Glendale". Or, he can go out on his own, using his own money, and build his own district with an arena so he can make money off of it.

Yes, plenty of people here have the delusion that asking for tax breaks is not using his own money, or the district to repay bonds that were going to be used for the landfill cleanup. But guess what, now the City of Tempe is going to be on the hook for that anyways. And EVERY single new build has some kind of tax break as an incentive to build. You'd be foolish to think not.

But hey, let's go support Utah getting a team, even though their taxpayers are going to be on the hook for $2 billion(regardless of how it's set up, I'm just going to use the same verbiage every other person uses). Disregard the fact that if you don't want interest in the team, don't spend money in the district where the sales taxes will take place that will help pay for the deal. The EXACT SAME setup that AM was proposing in Tempe.

Now...for comparison...
this state land is on the north side of the Loop 101...
to the south...
state land was auctioned and won...
by Mayo Clinic...in the final amount of $139 million...for 228 acres...

And...just a little further east...closer to Scottsdale Rd...
HonorHealth...outbid Banner Health...for state land...
in the final amount of $84 million...for 48 acres...

What were the appraised value of those parcels before the auction/final price?

 

[Llama19]

Appraised value of Mayo Clinic was at $139 million...went for $139 million...
the HonorHealth was appraised at $56.95 million...final bid ended up at $84 million...

Source: land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-02/Auction%20History%2002_07_2024.pdf

 

[awfulwaffle]

Appraised value of Mayo Clinic was at $139 million...went for $139 million...
the HonorHealth was appraised at $56.95 million...final bid ended up at $84 million...

Source: land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-02/Auction%20History%2002_07_2024.pdf

Can you really compare all of these then? Mayo Clinic seems in line with this valuation, but if you look at the original valuation of the Honor Health site, it's 500k more than the valuation of the Coyotes hopeful site. Should we really be comparing apples and oranges?

 

[Llama19]

From the original article...

"After adjusting for factors such as parcel size, improvements to the land, buyer motivation and others, Clement used the per-square-foot price of the other sales to set the market value of the land sought by the Coyotes. At $15 to $17 per square foot, the market value range was $62.3 million to $70.6 million.

The appraisal recommends the price at the upper range of that window, at $68.5 million or $16.49 per square foot."

 

[awfulwaffle]

From the original article...

"After adjusting for factors such as parcel size, improvements to the land, buyer motivation and others, Clement used the per-square-foot price of the other sales to set the market value of the land sought by the Coyotes. At $15 to $17 per square foot, the market value range was $62.3 million to $70.6 million.

The appraisal recommends the price at the upper range of that window, at $68.5 million or $16.49 per square foot."

Their comps were 6 land sales, but you are only listing 2(and are you certain these 2 were included in the comparison)?

 

[TheLegend]

Can’t threaten to leave if he’s not there to begin with.

Except he hasn't threatened to leave. In fact he's been emphatic about doing the opposite.

So why would there be "demands" as it's being framed here?? Other than it has to make economic sense for him.