CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[1CasualFan]

Will be very interesting to see what Tempe ultimately does with this land. The estimated cleanup costs are roughly double the value of the land after cleanup. I don’t believe Tempe could give the land away for “free”. So many legal risks for a developer to assume ownership and cleanup obligations.

Oddly, if Tempe did try to give the land away for free or pay a developer to take it we’d end up with a voter referendum that the city was “giving away land”, not understanding the negative value of that land.

I wonder if Tempe might try qualifying the site for the EPA Superfund or something like that. It looks like there was a "Nineteenth Ave Landfill" on the CERCLA list circa 2006 (NINETEENTH AVENUE LANDFILL | Superfund Site Profile | Superfund Site Information | US EPA). If the city's contribution to the cleanup cost was a major point of contention, try the time honored path of sluffing the costs off to the federal govt?

Just spitballing here...


[EDIT] I now see that you are way ahead of me here - but I was thinking along the same lines. "The site is not currently eligible for any federal superfund money."

 

[Rich Nixon]

Outspent 8 to 1. And not talking $80 mill to $10 mill. $2 mill to $250K. Biggest event that will determine the future of the franchise and they spend that little to get their message out?

Source?

 

[ponder719]

Source?

Seravalli.

Unreal

 

[Rich Nixon]

Seravalli.

Yeah I went looking and found that. I'm a bit baffled though. Because I haven't seen that reported literally anywhere else prior or outside of him attributing it to "NHL sources" today. Seravalli is good but I'm wondering if there's a wrinkle we're missing somewhere. That or every single local reporter in Arizona f***ing sucks, which seems, well, who knows.

 

[Lempo]

Outspent 8 to 1. And not talking $80 mill to $10 mill. $2 mill to $250K. Biggest event that will determine the future of the franchise and they spend that little to get their message out?

Different numbers mentioned here, with the Yes side money coming outside the Coyotes organisation.

Coyotes concede defeat after Tempe voters reject hockey arena deal

Tempe's $2.1 billion deal with the Arizona Coyotes was losing heavily in early results.

eu.azcentral.com

Since then, the campaign trail had been tense. On one side, opposition group Tempe 1st levied charges of corruption against Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo, arguing that the city was being ripped off. The campaign worked to see the deal defeated on a budget of just $35,000.

The Coyotes' Tempe Wins campaign, supporting the plan, raised roughly 35 times more cash than that — the vast majority of which came from Meruelo's development company. It spent more than $700,000.

 

[mouser]

I wonder if Tempe might try qualifying the site for the EPA Superfund or something like that. It looks like there was a "Nineteenth Ave Landfill" on the CERCLA list circa 2006 (NINETEENTH AVENUE LANDFILL | Superfund Site Profile | Superfund Site Information | US EPA). If the city's contribution to the cleanup cost was a major point of contention, try the time honored path of sluffing the costs off to the federal govt?

Just spitballing here...


[EDIT] I now see that you are way ahead of me here - but I was thinking along the same lines. "The site is not currently eligible for any federal superfund money."

The location was the Tempe city dump for decades, I'm not sure when exactly they topped it off with landfill over the dump but it was at least 30 years ago, likely 40+.

My understanding is it was always a "town" dump, not a "industrial" dump. The worst known item in there is coal tar/creosote utility poles.

While being a town dump there's still a major risk to Tempe or any developer taking over the land that they discover previously unknown toxic materials in the dump. No one knows exactly what was dumped there over those decades.

Don't know if Tempe could get future Superfund money. Again oddly, Tempe not knowing exactly what's in that dump might be a barrier for Superfund application.

 

[shenmue16]

Just to be fair to the ownership of the Yotes, they're not completely incompetent or as moronic as they are being made out to be by posters. The goal for ownership has been quite clear for a long time, it's just people have a lot of assumptions about people's goals in business. There is a good reason the Coyotes slashed all of their expenditures and worked to actually profit for the first time in recorded history during 2021-2022. They actually pulled in a several million dollar profit despite being one of the worst teams in the league. Their motivation for years has been to slowly build the case for relocation and sell to another ownership group. However, they had to save face in this matter. Bettman has made it clear for years that he doesn't want Arizona to leave, and the owners of the Yotes had to make a somewhat credible attempt to stay in Arizona. They didn't want to win this vote. From an investment standpoint, they have done an interesting job of making the team attractive to investors. If you purchase the Coyotes you get a better deal versus expansion ( an estimated 450m vs 650m). You have an active revenue stream from licensing and possibly selling the rights to the old Jets back to the new jets. Coyotes have a better financial situation (because the Coyotes stripped assets and reduced cap-costs), have more draft capital versus an expansion franchise. The end goal was always the same regardless of whatever they will publicly state: sale + relocation.
NHL is not in a position to expand the league even more right now and no team besides Arizona is in a position where they need to relocate. Coyotes can sit back and wait for the bidding war, knowing that regardless of what the end price is and where the team goes, they've probably made a hundred to two hundred million in profit.

This has been the plan for a very long-time, and to a degree I have to admire a group who are so motivated by money that they are willing to sabotage their own reputation and sink the Yotes ship.

 

[Lempo]

I imagine this is not the publicity the league wants in the middle of the playoffs.

View attachment 709482

But also, the all four teams left being from south kind of highlights at the same time that this is an isolated thingy with one individual team, and that hockey in south in general is doing a-ok. If you want to make lemonade out of lemons.

 

[Boeser Fan]

It’s typical Canadian whining. “My team can’t draft or can’t properly handle the cap, so it’s Bergman’s fault!” That’s why I look forward every year to increasing the number by one of a Canadian team not winning the Cup. As far as I’m concerned, 1993 can last forever.

Never forget when your fugazi fanbase booed him back in Pittsburgh after.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

Unreal

I don't think I get it. If the unions are that powerful, why not guarantee them a percentage of the work to make them happy?

 

[mouser]

I don't think I get it. If the unions are that powerful, why not guarantee them a percentage of the work to make them happy?

The proposal guaranteed a % of work to union labor. With a stated objective to prioritize local construction workers and unions.

Apparently the out of state based labor unions didn’t like that.

 

[TheLegend]

Bingo. That's the sort of detail that is very carefully written before it gets released into the public.

That, and "We are going to review with the Coyotes what the options might be going forward", which has absolutely none of the usual cheerleading about being committed to remaining in the local community etc etc. It's just straight up, "we're going to see what our rights are and let you know".

Meh…

I thing I’ve learned a long time ago is never try to translate Bettman-speak. But people will constantly always try reading between the lines then lines between the lines between the lines.

I think the Coyotes and league were completely surprised this went down the way it did.

When you look at the recent announcements in Calgary, Buffalo and Las Vegas of billion dollar sports/entertainment venues and their primary source is public funding… then take a look at how TED was being funded it just boggles the mind.

TED was a true prototype in how public/private partnerships should be going forward. But it’s a tough sell because the moment you mention the “t” word it sets off the alarms.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

How will they find out?

If they drop 100 million on rehabing the site out of their own reserves to rehabilitate the site, or if they approve a similar project a few years from now, as I've seen a bunch of times with referendums like this.

 

[TheLegend]

The location was the Tempe city dump for decades, I'm not sure when exactly they topped it off with landfill over the dump but it was at least 30 years ago, likely 40+.

My understanding is it was always a "town" dump, not a "industrial" dump. The worst known item in there is coal tar/creosote utility poles.

While being a town dump there's still a major risk to Tempe or any developer taking over the land that they discover previously unknown toxic materials in the dump. No one knows exactly what was dumped there over those decades.

Don't know if Tempe could get future Superfund money. Again oddly, Tempe not knowing exactly what's in that dump might be a barrier for Superfund application.

The only way it could qualify for superfund is if they found something like barrels of toxic or petroleum waste buried like they did at the other end of the Tempe Town Lake when Tempe Marketplace was built.

No way of knowing if there’s any until they dig it out.

 

[Scouter]

NHL to Portland.. would be nice

Not gonna happen, owner there has no interest in the NHL.

Well the NHL wants to move the Yotes to Houston because it's a big market, however they could be facing the very same issue that they faced in Phoenix because they have a basketball only owner who owns the building just like in Phoenix who might not even let them in or they could be kicked out again at some point, Kansas City does not have this issue, Salt Lake City is also a basketball owner who owns the building, but he also owns a soccer team so looks like he is more friendly to other sports, plus I think the NHL would ideally rather go into buildings made for hockey 1st and not basketball.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

But where will Matthews play now???

Honestly, the experiment has been given more opportunities to succeed in Arizona than any other struggling franchise. Time to move it. Can't move them back to Winnipeg so send them to Quebec City or Hamilton.

Hamilton is a no-go for 3 years

 

[Scouter]

So the owner of the Rockets wants an NHL team in his building, however no other owner will be allowed to have an NHL team in his building, which means only he can own it, so the only way this can happen is if Meruelo sells to Fertitta (Rockets owner).

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I recall Gutierrez saying they have backup plan so we shall see.

 

[Jets4Life]

I'm sure Phoenix will get another team via expansion within 15 years.

It's going to be neat having a Texas rivalry (Houston vs Dallas).

 

[Scouter]

I recall Gutierrez saying they have backup plan so we shall see.

That was awhile ago, but nothing has been heard about this since, plus when he came out of the vote he did not indicate that he did.

 

[Scouter]

I'm sure Phoenix will get another team via expansion within 15 years.

It's going to be neat having a Texas rivalry (Houston vs Dallas).

I don't know how you can be so sure about this, it's not so easy to get a team, a lot of things have to be in place, that area in Arizona had paid way too much money already, they weren't going to do it again, it's unlikely they will want to inthe future, they don't want another headache most likely.

It's not a done deal that they will be in Houston, it's not going to be as easy to move there as people might think, Meuelo has to sell to the Rockets owner for this to happen, he's the only owner that can put a team in Houston cause he owns the building and what he says goes, that's the only way they move there, if the price isn't right or Meruelo does not want to sell then they are not going to Houston, the next likely spot would be Kansas City.

 

[CaptainKirk]

I'm sorry to hear it. Again, late to the party, but have been pulling since the Basallie years that they should stay put. Hope Plan B is real.

Of course the Jim Balsillie movie had to release THIS week.

 

[edog37]

You wouldn't even be watching hockey if Pittsburgh didn't have a team.

So sure you are sport…whatever

 

[edog37]

Never forget when your fugazi fanbase booed him back in Pittsburgh after.

They didn’t boo him. They weren’t pleased with the result. But since you want to go down this path, funny how many Canadian fans ripped on Crosby over the years despite him scoring the biggest goal in Canadian hockey history. Ever bigger than Henderson.

 

[Jets4Life]

I don't know how you can be so sure about this, it's not so easy to get a team, a lot of things have to be in place, that area in Arizona had paid way too much money already, they weren't going to do it again, it's unlikely they will want to inthe future, they don't want another headache most likely.

It's not a done deal that they will be in Houston, it's not going to be as easy to move there as people might think, Meuelo has to sell to the Rockets owner for this to happen, he's the only owner that can put a team in Houston cause he owns the building and what he says goes, that's the only way they move there, if the price isn't right or Meruelo does not want to sell then they are not going to Houston, the next likely spot would be Kansas City.

It's not going to be Kansas City, unless very recently a group expressed interest in moving a team there. If it's not Texas, Quebec can put in an offer. There is no way they keep the team in a 4,600 seat arena long term.