CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[GKJ]

People talking about a Plan B like we ain’t halfway through the alphabet

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

People talking about a Plan B like we ain’t halfway through the alphabet

Halfway?! I think we're on CC-8 or something.

 

[aqib]

Even the local news says 3 arenas in a market like Phoenix is too much. So I guess us out of towners weren't so crazy after all.

 

[Warden of the North]

People talking about a Plan B like we ain’t halfway through the alphabet

That's what I was going to say.

 

[BMN]

I was surprised because even with the reports of a higher-than-expected turnout, I figured there'd be enough of a swath of "generally-pro-whatever-business-we-can-take-from-the-other-municipalities" voters to combine with the Yotes fans to put it over the top, albeit barely.

I do agree with the earlier post that said it was probably too complicated a prospect to explain to a low info voter. And also with the other post that stated that there are people who will vote against any development like this. For those people, the fact it showed up on a ballot to begin with means "it's the public helping private business instead of letting them sink or swim on their own and I'm against that every time no matter how favorable the deal may seem."

 

[Legion34]

I hope that there's a resolution in Arizona, the fans there deserve it after all they've been put through, but if not, the league should take lessons from this situation, and begin laying groundwork for a future return to the area when and only when they actually have their ducks in a row on the ownership, location, and arena. It may take significant time for the air to clear, and to find the right team to make it happen successfully, but Phoenix can succeed, if that success isn't entirely at the mercy of snake oil salesmen.

Why do the fans deserve it? The city voted no.


There are die hard hockey fans everywhere. They didn’t support the team. They literally voted against keeping the team.


There are thousands of cities that don’t have NHL teams. The few thousand coyotes fans are no more deserving than anywhere else.

 

[ponder719]

Why do the fans deserve it? The city voted no.

There are die hard hockey fans everywhere. They didn’t support the team. They literally voted against keeping the team.

There are thousands of cities that don’t have NHL teams. The few thousand coyotes fans are no more deserving than anywhere else.

The people who voted no are not the same population as the fans of the team. Not all Coyotes fans could vote on this, only those who lived in Tempe. But I suspect you know that.

Not to mention, the Coyotes' ownership wasn't doing anyone any favors here by not putting forth a competent political campaign. Lesson 1: NIMBYs vote, disproportionately. You have to be substantially better organized and better funded, or you almost always lose. They weren't, and they lost.

 

[Slashers98]

Time to move this dumpster fire out of Arizona.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Why do the fans deserve it? The city voted no.


There are die hard hockey fans everywhere. They didn’t support the team. They literally voted against keeping the team.


There are thousands of cities that don’t have NHL teams. The few thousand coyotes fans are no more deserving than anywhere else.

The people voted no, not the city government this time around.

F em, they've had more chances than they deserve. Move them to QC

 

[paul-laus]

The other option of course is the team folds if they can't be moved, which is maybe starting to look like a possibility.

No this is not a possibility. There is enough people with deep pockets out there that would love to own a professional sports franchise. It’s funny how potential owners come out of the woodwork when reality begins to set in that a franchise actually legitimately is available instead of rumours, media sensationalism, and scuttlebut. I would not at all be surprised if there are potential owners seriously considering their options in Portland, KC, and Salt Lake City…

 

[Dynamite Kid]

I hate to ask this question. But, given the lack of committment to Arizona, if there is a relocation....

Quebec City or Houston

Quebecor has been very quiet since their bid was "deferred". It was deferred at $500 million. This is similar to True North before the Atlanta move. They were also very quiet. It may be possible Quebecor was promised the first relocation. The next month will be interesting.

 

[Legion34]

Why do the fans deserve it? The city voted no.


There are die hard hockey fans everywhere. They didn’t support the team. They literally voted against keeping the team.


There are thousands of cities that don’t have NHL teams. The few thousand coyotes fans are no more deserving than anywhere else.

They have had 30 years to support the team. They haven’t. It’s not hard

 

[Llama19]

Tempe sticks fork in Coyotes arena plan; Sixers arena backer wins Philly mayoral primary

To quote:

"Two big votes yesterday affecting arena plans: First up, Tempe, where Arizona Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo needed to win three separate ballot measures to be able to proceed with his $2.1 billion arena development project (with around $500 million in tax breaks). It wasn’t close:

Tuesday’s unofficial tally shows similar trends among the three ballot items ― Propositions 301, 302 and 303 — all of which needed to receive a majority of “yes” votes in order for the Coyotes project to move forward. Each one was losing by a 56% to 44% margin, with the exception of Prop. 303, which was losing 57% to 43%.

This isn’t super surprising given the way the public debate around the arena project was going — not to mention the fact that the Coyotes’ fan base is, let’s just say, not as robust as one might want when trying to muster support for a half-billion-dollar subsidy. Still, losing while outspending the opposition by $1.2 million to $35,000 has got to sting, and is another data point in why team owners would much rather deal directly with elected officials, who can be more easily, uh, let’s go with “influenced” by dropping a bunch of cash on lobbyists.

As for what’s next for the Coyotes, who last season made what was supposed to be a temporary move into a 5,000-seat college arena, Meruelo and his henchmen didn’t immediately say, issuing a statement saying they were “very disappointed” and that “what is next for the franchise will be evaluated by our owners and the National Hockey League over the coming weeks.” (The NHL released a similar statement.) Twitter is ablaze with talk of the team moving to Houston or Quebec City or Atlanta or Saskatoon, and while some of those destinations might make some sense — the Phoenix area never really took to the team, at least not in terms of buying tickets — each has problems as well, so none is especially a slam dunk, or whatever the corresponding hockey term would be. Could Meruelo and NHL commissioner Gary Bettman emerge in a few weeks with yet another arena plan somewhere in Arizona? That’s presumably what they’re discussing right now, though you would think they would have had a Plan B ready to go, given how fickle voters can be about rubber-stamping billionaires’ subsidy demands."

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2023/05/17/19966/tempe-sticks-fork-in-coyotes-arena-plan-sixers-arena-backer-wins-philly-mayoral-primary/

 

[Melrose Munch]

Suprised the Atlanta Hawks owner isn't interested yet...

 

[patnyrnyg]

We'll find out what plan b everyone has. If the Coyotes have a good one, they'll get time to explore that. If not, we'll find out if the league has a plan b it can execute right now. If they need a year to figure that out, the Coyotes will stay for another year.

Is the deal with ASU a year-to-year thing or do they have a longer-term agreement? If so, does anyone know if it is iron-clad or can they get out easily.

Considering the history, I can't imagine the NHL does not have a plan B, C, and D, ready to go. Seriously doubt they saw this vote as a lay-up that would easily pass.

 

[OG6ix]

Suprised the Atlanta Hawks owner isn't interested yet...

The arena has been retrofitted to be basketball specific since the thrashers left... Why? I have no idea.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Suprised the Atlanta Hawks owner isn't interested yet...

I just don't think he's a hockey guy. He's fully committed to the Hawks, the recent arena renovation, and the surrounding development currently under construction. I just don't think he has the interest, especially with the relocation/expansion fees.

In my opinion, a good scenario for Atlanta would be Liberty Media, Braves and Formula 1 owners. There are rumors that they are trying to expand their Sport portfolio. Apparently, they were interested in the WWE before they got sold to UFC. With the success of the Battery, maybe they're ready to invest in a team and this Gathering idea.

 

[KevFu]

The problem with looking at it like this is two fold.

Firstly, what your saying on the one hand, is perfectly reasonable if you look at things in a vacuum. Problem is, that's not how the world works. You can't remove the God knows how many tens of millions, maybe even more than a hundred million dollars, that has been gifted to the team throughout the years and that's just from the government. If we want, we can also add the other mountains of debt that nobody acknowledges but surely has received from LOC's from the NHL.

The second thing is that those who have lived through this, both directly (residents/fans) and indirectly (outsiders following the situation for years) have trouble buying what Muruelo is selling. We know about the questionable business practices. We know about Westgate. We know about the hundreds of millions of dollars of debt already attached to the team. We know about the negativity associated with the team due to all the years of ownership trouble and mismanagement. We know that this organization, while under a different owner now, has a history of selling bullshit. We know that there is no guarantee that the fans both A - show up and B - pay close to actual NHL prices. We know that in a multi phase, long term, massive, 2 plus billion dollar project with god knows how many investors and developers, things can happen, things can change. Oh right, I already mentioned Westgate sorry about that.

Anyways, as I said, if we look at it in a vacuum, MAYBE this is a reasonable proposal. But we never know until it's too late what little loopholes have been added in, we know everything I mentioned above, and there's no guarantee the projects comes to a completion which is necessary to make the money.

Your indirectly folks in that equation don't get to vote. People in Mesa and Gilbert don't even get votes.

Secondly, everything else you wrote is also exactly the problem: FIND OUT. If you don't know what's going on in a proposition(s), don't vote. If you're going to see a commercial that's propaganda** and get fired up enough to get off your couch to go vote, actually find out what loopholes there are!

If you don't understand that "a tax abatement" isn't money out of your paycheck every month, that the CFD is basically voluntary, don't go vote.

THAT'S what drives me nuts. It's the ignorance of people falling for propaganda** (which, for those of you in Canada who are unaware; the USA legalized propaganda back in the 80s. It's why we're a cesspool of a society now and why one of my Realignment Plans was for about 23 states to join Canada if you'd have us).

People are reducing complex legalese down to one simple thing, but it's the totally wrong thing. They're seeing a price tag for a project and a tax abatement and assume THAT'S how much money they're losing.

The real simplistic reduction is "These guys want to build a thing, when we haven't built a thing; and probably WON'T build a thing EVER because WE CAN'T AFFORD TO BUILD THINGS, but THEY CAN."

I'm most likely projecting my 20+ years of Islanders arena frustration to my new hockey neighbor, but you have people voting to KEEP A PARKING LOT or KEEP A DUMP instead of BUILDING SOMETHING simply because they don't understand that's really what the option is.

Fortunately, it was a happy ending for my Islanders, but I feel really bad for other places I've lived closer to: Oakland, and now Tempe.

 

[MNNumbers]

Your indirectly folks in that equation don't get to vote. People in Mesa and Gilbert don't even get votes.

Secondly, everything else you wrote is also exactly the problem: FIND OUT. If you don't know what's going on in a proposition(s), don't vote. If you're going to see a commercial that's propaganda** and get fired up enough to get off your couch to go vote, actually find out what loopholes there are!

If you don't understand that "a tax abatement" isn't money out of your paycheck every month, that the CFD is basically voluntary, don't go vote.

THAT'S what drives me nuts. It's the ignorance of people falling for propaganda** (which, for those of you in Canada who are unaware; the USA legalized propaganda back in the 80s. It's why we're a cesspool of a society now and why one of my Realignment Plans was for about 23 states to join Canada if you'd have us).

People are reducing complex legalese down to one simple thing, but it's the totally wrong thing. They're seeing a price tag for a project and a tax abatement and assume THAT'S how much money they're losing.

The real simplistic reduction is "These guys want to build a thing, when we haven't built a thing; and probably WON'T build a thing EVER because WE CAN'T AFFORD TO BUILD THINGS, but THEY CAN."

I'm most likely projecting my 20+ years of Islanders arena frustration to my new hockey neighbor, but you have people voting to KEEP A PARKING LOT or KEEP A DUMP instead of BUILDING SOMETHING simply because they don't understand that's really what the option is.

Fortunately, it was a happy ending for my Islanders, but I feel really bad for other places I've lived closer to: Oakland, and now Tempe.

Propaganda is also....."You had better support this or you will be responsible for the team leaving." It's also the way the Calgary deal would have been spun in the states heavily by both sides.

And, you are right. Humans are very prone to believing it. That's why it works. Works in presidential elections, too.

 

[HeHateMeFrisbee]

I just don't think he's a hockey guy. He's fully committed to the Hawks, the recent arena renovation, and the surrounding development currently under construction. I just don't think he has the interest, especially with the relocation/expansion fees.

In my opinion, a good scenario for Atlanta would be Liberty Media, Braves and Formula 1 owners. There are rumors that they are trying to expand their Sport portfolio. Apparently, they were interested in the WWE before they got sold to UFC. With the success of the Battery, maybe they're ready to invest in a team and this Gathering idea.

I wonder if Gas South could be used until Alpharetta is ready

 

[nhlfan79]

I just don't think he's a hockey guy. He's fully committed to the Hawks, the recent arena renovation, and the surrounding development currently under construction. I just don't think he has the interest, especially with the relocation/expansion fees.

In my opinion, a good scenario for Atlanta would be Liberty Media, Braves and Formula 1 owners. There are rumors that they are trying to expand their Sport portfolio. Apparently, they were interested in the WWE before they got sold to UFC. With the success of the Battery, maybe they're ready to invest in a team and this Gathering idea.

I've seen this factual inaccuracy posted several times already. State Farm Arena absolutely still can physically host a 200x85 ice sheet for ice hockey. But like you said, Ressler has given no indication whatsoever that he has any interest in hockey.

 

[RogerRoger]

Your indirectly folks in that equation don't get to vote. People in Mesa and Gilbert don't even get votes.

Secondly, everything else you wrote is also exactly the problem: FIND OUT. If you don't know what's going on in a proposition(s), don't vote. If you're going to see a commercial that's propaganda** and get fired up enough to get off your couch to go vote, actually find out what loopholes there are!

If you don't understand that "a tax abatement" isn't money out of your paycheck every month, that the CFD is basically voluntary, don't go vote.

THAT'S what drives me nuts. It's the ignorance of people falling for propaganda** (which, for those of you in Canada who are unaware; the USA legalized propaganda back in the 80s. It's why we're a cesspool of a society now and why one of my Realignment Plans was for about 23 states to join Canada if you'd have us).

People are reducing complex legalese down to one simple thing, but it's the totally wrong thing. They're seeing a price tag for a project and a tax abatement and assume THAT'S how much money they're losing.

The real simplistic reduction is "These guys want to build a thing, when we haven't built a thing; and probably WON'T build a thing EVER because WE CAN'T AFFORD TO BUILD THINGS, but THEY CAN."

I'm most likely projecting my 20+ years of Islanders arena frustration to my new hockey neighbor, but you have people voting to KEEP A PARKING LOT or KEEP A DUMP instead of BUILDING SOMETHING simply because they don't understand that's really what the option is.

Fortunately, it was a happy ending for my Islanders, but I feel really bad for other places I've lived closer to: Oakland, and now Tempe.

If you think there no (or less) lying, or no low information voters, or less nimby in Canada, you'll be very disappointed.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

People talking about a Plan B like we ain’t halfway through the alphabet

Yeah, I mean, how charitable can we be, here?

It's a shame for the very-small-but-diehard fanbase. But that small fanbase just cannot support a pro team by itself. The casuals out there have never bought in at any permanent level.

I'm really sorry, again, to the diehards but for the good of the league this needs to finally end.

 

[aqib]

Suprised the Atlanta Hawks owner isn't interested yet...

He didn't get rich investing in bad ideas...

 

[paul-laus]

We'll find out what plan b everyone has. If the Coyotes have a good one, they'll get time to explore that. If not, we'll find out if the league has a plan b it can execute right now. If they need a year to figure that out, the Coyotes will stay for another year.

No offence but I couldn’t disagree with you more….If there truly doesn’t appear to be a legitimate arena option coming at some point, the NHL will have done its due diligence and will have other irons in the fire….They absolutely 100% unequivocally will not let the Coyotes stay another year just due to lack of league preparedness for this exact situation…