CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[Coyotedroppings]

When the RFP was written in such a way that the specs match a project that a particular party has already designed then yeah its rigged.

Yes the land has been available for however long, but the Opportunity Zone legislation that makes it more valuable is relatively new.

This whole thing about the RFP would have written differently if someone else inquired is also problematic. Why not just have an open RFP where anyone can make a proposal so you can truly compare different options.

It’s been available for decades.
These guys are remediating on their dollar.
What part do you struggle with?
Me thinks you’re most concerned with hockey failure and not what’s obviously best for Tempe.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

If it bothers certain people that much, then it says a lot more about them than it does about the teams remaining. My recommendation is always "go to therapy".

Yes, yes, 1000x yes...because you know not one of "those people" that happen to be reading this thread would care in the least about this tract of land in question to be used for TED, if it didn't involve keeping Arizona in the NHL. Not for one second do I buy that any one of them are "looking out for the little guy" or "care about the environment" or "fear for the safety of airport workers" or "just want to ensure good governance". Not one iota. Just like all the crocodile tears they cried for Glendale. This is a bunch of narrow-minded folks with one goal, full stop, and it's truly nauseating.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Tempe sold off land to the immediate east and west of the TED location in the past decade. They've tried to move the TED property for years, including a option on part of the land in 2013 to Verde (Carvana).

It's not realistic to believe the city hasn't made it long known the land was available.

Hmm, almost like the whole remediation thing is some sort of hang up.

Yes, yes, 1000x yes...because you know not one of "those people" that happen to be reading this thread would care in the least about this tract of land in question to be used for TED, if it didn't involve keeping Arizona in the NHL. Not for one second do I buy that any one of them are "looking out for the little guy" or "care about the environment" or "fear for the safety of airport workers" or "just want to ensure good governance". Not one iota. Just like all the crocodile tears they cried for Glendale. This is a bunch of narrow-minded folks with one goal, full stop, and it's truly nauseating.

You forgot about those who are just interested “from a business standpoint.”

 

[Salsero1]

Yes, yes, 1000x yes...because you know not one of "those people" that happen to be reading this thread would care in the least about this tract of land in question to be used for TED, if it didn't involve keeping Arizona in the NHL. Not for one second do I buy that any one of them are "looking out for the little guy" or "care about the environment" or "fear for the safety of airport workers" or "just want to ensure good governance". Not one iota. Just like all the crocodile tears they cried for Glendale. This is a bunch of narrow-minded folks with one goal, full stop, and it's truly nauseating.

Seriously, I could at least have a microgram of respect if they just said what they really mean. Isn't the spring training facility in Glendale a bigger financial bust than the arena and Coyotes ever were? It doesn't come up nearly as much 'round here.

 

[TheLegend]

Seriously, I could at least have a microgram of respect if they just said what they really mean. Isn't the spring training facility in Glendale a bigger financial bust than the arena and Coyotes ever were? It doesn't come up nearly as much 'round here.

It’s a much bigger financial bust. But you’ll never know about it because Glendale has been keeping it quiet for the most part.

But I will add that it falls mainly on the city council who initiated it to begin with. The council in place now has been stuck with mediating the fallout.

This article sums up their quandary quite well….

Law Talk: The locker room rumble at Camelback Ranch

The unlikely intersection of landlord/tenant principles and your Los Angeles Dodgers Looking at the controversy between the Chicago White Sox, the Los Angeles Dodgers, and the City of Glendale, Arizona.

www.truebluela.com

 

[BlueSeal]

If this was strictly a business situation, the Yotes would have been moved out of AZ a decade ago.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

So cheat notes plz..

Is this gonna happen or no? Preferably from a resident of the Tempe area. Will ppl drive to Tempe for hockey? Just curious of the situation locally there from someone who lives there... do ppl even care?

 

[Final Baton]

Guess we can expect close to 40k votes.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

So cheat notes plz..

Is this gonna happen or no? Preferably from a resident of the Tempe area. Will ppl drive to Tempe for hockey? Just curious of the situation locally there from someone who lives there... do ppl even care?

It depends who you ask. There's a robust mixture of optimists, who see this as something that objective voters should support (I e. - clean up a landfill, help the environment and build a really beautiful entertainment district, seems like a no brainer), and pessimists, who (having lived through and experienced years of trauma with the franchise that pre-dates my time in living in AZ) see the misinformation flying around to the backdrop of "Vote No" signs in people's yards and have grown to expect the worst. There are back channel rumors of a Plan B should it fail, but many are skeptical of them and nothing is worth reporting yet. Like any election, it's the middle who's going to decide it.

People will absolutely drive to Tempe to go to games. Some may not have to drive with public transportation. I work right across the highway from the proposed site. I'd have a front row seat to the development. That location is perfect - equidistant from the micro hockey communities in suburbs like Gilbert, Scottsdale and Peoria along with being in shouting distance of the metro area. The Arizona hockey community is very close. Lots of kids play. The game is still growing here. In a couple years, a competitive Coyotes team would do the same thing here that its done in other Sun Belt hockey communities like Carolina, Tampa, Nashville, Vegas and Dallas. A lot of people care, but not all of them are eligible to vote, myself included. It's a scary, helpless feeling.

I really hope this passes. I love hockey, and I love living here. I want to be able to enjoy it with my wife and kids, share in that community and share in the game all of us on these boards love so much.

 

[KevFu]

So cheat notes plz..

Is this gonna happen or no? Preferably from a resident of the Tempe area. Will ppl drive to Tempe for hockey? Just curious of the situation locally there from someone who lives there... do ppl even care?

People will drive to Tempe because Tempe is actually the geographic center of the market.

Tempe is the "knot" of a bowtie: West Valley (with PHX) and East Valley (the more "NHL demographic" suburbs).

 

[Stumbledore]

Hmm, almost like the whole remediation thing is some sort of hang up.

You forgot about those who are just interested “from a business standpoint.”

And you should forget those folks who support anything that embarrasses or really annoys Gary Bettman.

 

[theguardianII]

It does not look good for approval.

The FAA has concerns.
There are traffic concerns
There are noise concerns
There are cost/benefit concerns
There tax relief concerns
There is the requirement for the city commitment to remediate the site, a dump site (who knows what is in there)

And then there is Grand Canyon Institute's. They are like a dog on a bone when it comes to public money on private works.

Arizona's nice state law about public money used for private enterprises and 30 years of no taxes is certainly a gift.

The city council can vote yes but then there are a huge number of other obstacles to surmount.

The proposed arena would be the second smallest in the league at a seating capacity of 16,000. By NHL bylaws they need to sell 14,000 tickets to get the "hand out" but Bettman can waive that for his team.

And the city council can be voted out before shovels even hit the ground.

This could take a decade to solve if at all.

It may be the 4th largest market but if the NHL wants to stay they may have to find investors to pay the full shot and then MAYBE.

So far it has cost the NHL and all teams millions of dollars with this Arizona fiasco.

 

[Fatass]

It does not look good for approval.

The FAA has concerns.
There are traffic concerns
There are noise concerns
There are cost/benefit concerns
There tax relief concerns
There is the requirement for the city commitment to remediate the site, a dump site (who knows what is in there)

And then there is Goldwater. They are like a dog on a bone when it comes to public money on private works.

Arizona's nice state law about public money used for private enterprises and 30 years of no taxes is certainly a gift.

The city council can vote yes but then there are a huge number of other obstacles to surmount.

The proposed arena would be the second smallest in the league at a seating capacity of 16,000. By NHL bylaws they need to sell 14,000 tickets to get the "hand out" but Bettman can waive that for his team.

And the city council can be voted out before shovels even hit the ground.

With all these road blocks it is inconceivable that the NHL is pushing so hard.

This could take a decade to solve if at all.

It may be the 4th largest market but if the NHL wants to stay they may have to find investors to pay the full shot and then MAYBE.

So far it has cost the NHL and all teams millions of dollars with this Arizona fiasco.

I thought once the vote happens and it’s approved then the club can start cleaning up the site and building their arena.

 

[theguardianII]

I thought once the vote happens and it’s approved then the club can start cleaning up the site and building their arena.

The city has to pay to clean up the site. Estimated at over 70 million.

Any of the other parties can then start their litigation after a yes vote. Can't start a proceeding if there is nothing but lip service happening. The rest have to wait until something is in writing.

 

[TheLegend]

It does not look good for approval.

The FAA has concerns.
There are traffic concerns
There are noise concerns
There are cost/benefit concerns
There tax relief concerns
There is the requirement for the city commitment to remediate the site, a dump site (who knows what is in there)

City has the responsibility to remediate the site. It's covered with the bonds the CFD will issue. In fact most of those "concerns" are addressed in the proposal.

And then there is Grand Canyon Institute's. They are like a dog on a bone when it comes to public money on private works

Think you mean Goldwater Institute. They've been at the table with the proposal development since day 1. If there was a problem we would have heard it by now.

Arizona's nice state law about public money used for private enterprises and 30 years of no taxes is certainly a gift.

The gift laws actually cover real expenditures against return. Tax breaks don't factor in the equation.

The city council can vote yes but then there are a huge number of other obstacles to surmount.

As in the airport. If the voters approve this to go forward it's going to be difficult for Phoenix to get judge to go against a public vote.

The proposed arena would be the second smallest in the league at a seating capacity of 16,000. By NHL bylaws they need to sell 14,000 tickets to get the "hand out" but Bettman can waive that for his team.

The final number of seats hasn't been determined yet. 16,000 is the minimum.

And the city council can be voted out before shovels even hit the ground.

Shovels can hit the ground within 30 days of passage of the propositions.

With all these road blocks it is inconceivable that the NHL is pushing so hard.

NHL isn't pushing.... the Coyotes are. It's their show.

This could take a decade to solve if at all.

It may be the 4th largest market but if the NHL wants to stay they may have to find investors to pay the full shot and then MAYBE.

So far it has cost the NHL and all teams millions of dollars with this Arizona fiasco.

Meruelo has spent $40 million in the past year out of his pocket on this. He has the financing lined up to begin Phase 1.

BTW.... Revenue sharing is given to 1/3 the teams in the league so I guess that means the Coyotes wouldn't the only "fiasco".

 

[TheLegend]

The city has to pay to clean up the site. Estimated at over 70 million.

Any of the other parties can then start their litigation after a yes vote. Can't start a proceeding if there is nothing but lip service happening. The rest have to wait until something is in writing.

Suggest you read this document.

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/99461/638175974753400000

 

[theguardianII]

Suggest you read this document.

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/99461/638175974753400000

after remediation is completed and once developer remediation funds are replenished by the Community Facilities District (CFD),
Preliminary estimated cost to remediate is $73.6 million, but if costs are higher, the city’s cost contribution is capped at $93.6 million

The CFD is the city. The city pays up to 93.6 mil, tax dollars.

The developer’s contribution will likely exceed more than half of the total bond principal and interest payments that must be made.

The city is on the hook for whatever the developer doesn't pay, from city taxes.

The developer is on the hook for 80 million, that is all they have to come up with, a sweet deal. And they get to keep all the revenue from the district for 30 years without taxation.

What if the developer goes bankrupt?

There are clauses about the airport and others suing the city.

Some of the payments mentioned are repeated, such as traffic, no amount listed as who is paying for some city infrastructure within the project, lots of city bond sales to support the project, no set timelines on when phases will start or finish, developer has taxing power and payments to the city after they decide how much.

It appears the only thing the city can do is allow for no property taxes and selling the property.

It looks like the land sale is for 80 million and the city pays for the clean up.

The building of the project is in phases, so they build the arena first before any of the housing part or the rest of the project gets halted by some of the litigations.

the city of Phoenix is suing Tempe for violating an intergovernmental agreement over the residential component of the Coyotes project, claiming it’s too close to the runway. In response, the Coyotes and the firm they hired to develop the project, Bluebird LLC, are preparing to countersue, filing a $2.3 billion notice of claim this month seeking damages for alleged breach of that agreement

Who are they suing? The city of Tempe? Or is this just saber rattling now so they can a delaying action until they build the arena and then can't fulfil the rest of the project due to some one else saying no.
At any rate it will be interesting how they are voting on it.

In two days Bettman might be having a very bad day.

Alternatives to Arizona could be Texas, Kansas, Atlanta, Bend Oregon, Boise Idaho anywhere there is a 5000 seat arena except in Hamilton, Quebec City or any other Canadian city.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Hamilton's out for the next 3 years at least. The arena is undergoing upgrades

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Hamilton's out for the next 3 years at least. The arena is undergoing upgrades

The NHL is not going to Hamilton regardless of their arena situation.

There's probably a better chance of Quebec City and that's not happening either.

 

[Tawnos]

I’m trying to remember if it was always the case that these threads would hash out details and discussion, only to have a poster come in weeks or months after the fact with the same discussion points to be debated and batted down yet again (for example, the city is going to pay for the remediation of that land no matter what goes there. The cost of that is only going to go up, so right now is the cheapest they’ll get to do it). Sometimes the same poster on the same points, but often not. Probably it was always the case.

I’m looking forward to Tuesday just to have a result on the referendum and a new step to talk about.

 

[JimAnchower]

With all these road blocks it is inconceivable that the NHL is pushing so hard.

Where's the Wallace Shawn meme?

 

[mouser]

after remediation is completed and once developer remediation funds are replenished by the Community Facilities District (CFD),
Preliminary estimated cost to remediate is $73.6 million, but if costs are higher, the city’s cost contribution is capped at $93.6 million

The CFD is the city. The city pays up to 93.6 mil, tax dollars.

The developer’s contribution will likely exceed more than half of the total bond principal and interest payments that must be made.

The city is on the hook for whatever the developer doesn't pay, from city taxes.

Tempe is not on the hook for any shortfall in the CFD. Bonds issued by the CFD are not secured by Tempe, rather they're secured by the property within the CFD.

A CFD is a special taxing district, which captures a portion of taxes generated within the CFD to repay bonds. The CFD will also receive a Surcharge "tax" from the developments on top of the % of regular taxes the CFD collects.

The proposal projects that the Surcharge "tax" will contribute more than half of the bond repayments, with the rest coming from that % of regular taxes the CFD receives.

In the event the CFD is not receiving enough revenue to cover bond payments the Surcharge tax will be increased.

 

[theguardianII]

As in the airport. If the voters approve this to go forward it's going to be difficult for Phoenix to get judge to go against a public vote.

A federal law, not local

BTW.... Revenue sharing is given to 1/3 the teams in the league so I guess that means the Coyotes wouldn't the only "fiasco".

A 5000 seat arena? Really? Winnipeg lost a team because their arena only had a 13000 seat capacity. 20 years of trying to get a team in the state without success? How long did it take for Seattle or Vegas to get settled? a year? Two? Money and arena.

NHL isn't pushing.... the Coyotes are. It's their show.

Really, can you name the number of owner's over the last 20 years? But oddly only two sales. The NHL has owned, lent money to operate since the bankruptcy. In my recollection there have been no less than 7 people listed as owners with almost no sales of the franchise. If there was a sale how much was paid? I am sure it would be public knowledge. Ottawa is selling for over a billion. Carolina sold for 420 mil, Vegas and Seattle paid around 650 mil. What did the Yotes sell for? Arizona debt is reported to be 69% of their value.
So ya, NHL and fiasco

The gift laws actually cover real expenditures against return. Tax breaks don't factor in the equation.

The city sells Bonds and then repays them through taxation. The city has the CFD fund, tax supported and only a portion is to be reimbursed, the clean up is pure tax dollars.

There isn't even a structured payment schedule. Once the first thing built, the undersized arena

 

[Dirty Old Man]

A 5000 seat arena? Really?

T. E. M. P. O. R. A. R. Y.

Read that again. Sound it out if it helps.

T. E. M. P. O. R. A. R. Y.

The willful ignorance in here sometimes...I swear.

 

[mouser]

A federal law, not local


The city sells Bonds and then repays them through taxation. The city has the CFD fund, tax supported and only a portion is to be reimbursed, the clean up is pure tax dollars.

a) It's local contract law, filed in the Maricopa County Superior Court, not a federal court.

b) The city is not selling bonds, the CFD is selling bonds. This distinction is very important.

Tempe is selling the land to the developer after remediation is completed, at the remediated land value--that's not a gift. Tempe is currently responsible for the land cleanup. Using the CFD allows Tempe to get the cleanup costs off the city books and use the CFD to fund the cleanup.