CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[TheLegend]

Wait a second. Are you trying to imply that once this passes it's a guarantee things will move forward to its conclusion? Are you new here?

He’s had more time in the Phoenix threads than you have but we’re digressing.

I agree it will be quite magical. And since magic doesn't actually exist.....

Well now you might be right about that one….. given so many here have been wondering since 2009 why this franchise hasn’t magically relocated.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[aqib]

In reading one of the AZ Republic articles I found out that this land is in an Opportunity Zone. Building in an Opportunity Zone comes with federal tax benefits (basically you get to roll over capital gains from other projects without paying the tax). So on the one hand this deal makes more sense from the AM's point of view but that means this property would also have other interested parties if they did a real RFP and not a rigged one.

 

[TheLegend]

In reading one of the AZ Republic articles I found out that this land is in an Opportunity Zone. Building in an Opportunity Zone comes with federal tax benefits (basically you get to roll over capital gains from other projects without paying the tax). So on the one hand this deal makes more sense from the AM's point of view but that means this property would also have other interested parties if they did a real RFP and not a rigged one.

It’s been available for development for nearly three decades with no takers.

Carvana’s developer arm has had an option to part of it since 2013 with no movement.

So if this is a real juicy piece of real estate that people are dying to get their hands on then where are they?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

It’s been available for development for nearly three decades with no takers.

Carvana’s developer arm has had an option to part of it since 2013 with no movement.

So if this is a real juicy piece of real estate that people are dying to get their hands on then where are they?

The disappointment in here is almost palpable, isn't it? "Aw man, this is perfect for them...why oh why didn't someone deny them this ideal situation?"

 

[aqib]

It’s been available for development for nearly three decades with no takers.

Carvana’s developer arm has had an option to part of it since 2013 with no movement.

So if this is a real juicy piece of real estate that people are dying to get their hands on then where are they?

Opportunity Zones have only existed since 2018. IT was part of the tax cut legislation passed in 2017. So the "three decades" isn't really relevant. There are like 8K of them throughout the country.

So it hasn't been on the market with incentives available that long.

 

[mouser]

In reading one of the AZ Republic articles I found out that this land is in an Opportunity Zone. Building in an Opportunity Zone comes with federal tax benefits (basically you get to roll over capital gains from other projects without paying the tax). So on the one hand this deal makes more sense from the AM's point of view but that means this property would also have other interested parties if they did a real RFP and not a rigged one.

Thinking of the RFP process as being “rigged” can easily lead to a misunderstanding of the hoops AZ municipalities have to go through for a large deal like this.

The city owned land has been available for decades. Coyotes/Bluebird approached the city with a proposed development plan. After a period of initial discussions between Bluebird and the city, by law Tempe had to issue a RFP to move onto the next stage of starting more formal negotiations with Bluebird.

If any other developer had approached Tempe in those decades with a suitable proposal for that land the subsequent RFP would also have been “rigged” to fit the alternative proposal parameters.

 

[TheLegend]

Opportunity Zones have only existed since 2018. IT was part of the tax cut legislation passed in 2017. So the "three decades" isn't really relevant. There are like 8K of them throughout the country.

So it hasn't been on the market with incentives available that long.

Then explain all the developments along Tempe Town Lake that came in without being in an opportunity zone.

 

[TheLegend]

Thinking of the RFP process as being “rigged” can easily lead to a misunderstanding of the hoops AZ municipalities have to go through for a large deal like this.

The city owned land has been available for decades. Coyotes/Bluebird approached the city with a proposed development plan. After a period of initial discussions between Bluebird and the city, by law the city had to issue a RFP to move onto the next stage of starting more formal negotiations with Bluebird.

If any other developer had approached Tempe in those decades with a suitable proposal the subsequent RFP would also have been “rigged” to fit that alternative proposal parameters.

To expand on the hoops jumping…

People have asked why there are three propositions on the ballot instead of just one.

The reason is because it involved three separate actions/votes by the council and in Arizona you aren’t allowed to bundle them into a single proposition. Even though all three actions were part of one process.

 

[mouser]

I wouldn’t get too fixated on the Opportunity Zone angle.

For perspective here’s a picture of all the Opportunity Zones in the nearby area colored Blue. The Red highlight is the TED location.

No shortage of Opportunity Zone land for developers to pursue.

 

[Legion34]

i now know it’s a mail in ballot so there are no exit polls… but is there any info on opinion polls or where this is going?

I see individual posters arguing about the merit… but ultimately it doesn’t matter… what matters is the vote.

Are older voters believed to skew yes or no?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

i now know it’s a mail in ballot so there are no exit polls… but is there any info on opinion polls or where this is going?

I see individual posters arguing about the merit… but ultimately it doesn’t matter… what matters is the vote.

Are older voters believed to skew yes or no?

We should have sponsored a poll, lol.

 

[paul-laus]

Here Here. I wanna see the Coyotes get this arena project moving and secure their long term viability in Arizona….

 

[PredsHead]

i now know it’s a mail in ballot so there are no exit polls… but is there any info on opinion polls or where this is going?

I see individual posters arguing about the merit… but ultimately it doesn’t matter… what matters is the vote.

Are older voters believed to skew yes or no?

No polling at all that I am aware of.

I think there has been some thought that the older voters would skew no, but I don't think anyone has anything but anecdotal evidence of that as there is no polling. Even if we knew for a fact that the older voters would skew one side or another it doesn't actually tell us that much. If the 55+ voters skewed 55%-45% no, but the other voters went 60%-40% yes it would likely still pass.

 

[aqib]

Thinking of the RFP process as being “rigged” can easily lead to a misunderstanding of the hoops AZ municipalities have to go through for a large deal like this.

The city owned land has been available for decades. Coyotes/Bluebird approached the city with a proposed development plan. After a period of initial discussions between Bluebird and the city, by law Tempe had to issue a RFP to move onto the next stage of starting more formal negotiations with Bluebird.

If any other developer had approached Tempe in those decades with a suitable proposal for that land the subsequent RFP would also have been “rigged” to fit the alternative proposal parameters.

When the RFP was written in such a way that the specs match a project that a particular party has already designed then yeah its rigged.

Yes the land has been available for however long, but the Opportunity Zone legislation that makes it more valuable is relatively new.

This whole thing about the RFP would have written differently if someone else inquired is also problematic. Why not just have an open RFP where anyone can make a proposal so you can truly compare different options.

 

[PredsHead]

I made a quick and dirty sheet you can use to model the election from the data in the Tweet below. If you change the value in either of the columns highlighted in yellow it should update the rest of the information accordingly. I built it in Google Sheets so it may open in that better than Excel.

 

[TheLegend]

When the RFP was written in such a way that the specs match a project that a particular party has already designed then yeah its rigged.

Yes the land has been available for however long, but the Opportunity Zone legislation that makes it more valuable is relatively new.

This whole thing about the RFP would have written differently if someone else inquired is also problematic. Why not just have an open RFP where anyone can make a proposal so you can truly compare different options.

Cities don't normally put land they own out for public sale.

Ex: Glendale owns several parcels around Westgate they purchased to accommodate their contracted obligation with the NFL Cardinals to provide parking for State Farm Stadium. Some of those parcels are still undeveloped but you wouldn't know it because Glendale doesn't make it known they're there. Or if Glendale even wants to do anything with it at all.

With their Camelback Ranch project. They purchased the land to build the park and surrounding area for future development. But the original contractor they had lined up went bankrupt from the recession and never could get anyone to develop the land surrounding the park. They ended up selling it not long ago...... for a loss.

The difference here is.... this land is actually within the city of Phoenix and subject to being taxed like any other privately owned parcel. That is unless Glendale made arrangements with Phoenix ahead of time. That I don't know.

 

[MMC]

The reaction in both this in the Atlanta thread has me seriously worried about what will happen to the site if we get a final four of Dallas, Vegas, Florida, and Carolina. I'm starting to think this place will explode.

 

[Salsero1]

The reaction in both this in the Atlanta thread has me seriously worried about what will happen to the site if we get a final four of Dallas, Vegas, Florida, and Carolina. I'm starting to think this place will explode.

If it bothers certain people that much, then it says a lot more about them than it does about the teams remaining. My recommendation is always "go to therapy".

 

[stealth1]

The reaction in both this in the Atlanta thread has me seriously worried about what will happen to the site if we get a final four of Dallas, Vegas, Florida, and Carolina. I'm starting to think this place will explode.

It wouldn't be much different then if the Oilers make it through. Both sides are equally bad. Look at how many times I hear how it's bad for TV when Canadian teams are in end final.

 

[mouser]

When the RFP was written in such a way that the specs match a project that a particular party has already designed then yeah its rigged.

Yes the land has been available for however long, but the Opportunity Zone legislation that makes it more valuable is relatively new.

This whole thing about the RFP would have written differently if someone else inquired is also problematic. Why not just have an open RFP where anyone can make a proposal so you can truly compare different options.

Again, the misunderstanding you're making is thinking the RFP initiated this proposal process, when it was actually a middle step. There was no shortage of opportunity for other prospective developers to approach Tempe with ideas prior to the RFP.

 

[aqib]

Cities don't normally put land they own out for public sale.

That's literally what most cities do when they are trying to dispose of real estate. Granted the laws are different in each state. In an earlier part of my career I was advising a guy who wanted to by a building that the County owned. I met with the manager and told him what the guy wanted to offer he said "We can't just sell it we have to have a bidding process" they eventually did put it out for bid, my guy got outbid by someone who bid higher.

Again, the misunderstanding you're making is thinking the RFP initiated this proposal process, when it was actually a middle step. There was no shortage of opportunity for other prospective developers to approach Tempe with ideas prior to the RFP.

No I understand the RFP was in the middle of the process, that's why I am saying its rigged. It should be the start of the process. Developers/investors don't usually just drive around and see land and go "hey I want to buy that." There is a chance that if the city made it known they wanted to put that land up for sale/development that other parties may have expressed interest.

 

[TheLegend]

That's literally what most cities do when they are trying to dispose of real estate. Granted the laws are different in each state. In an earlier part of my career I was advising a guy who wanted to by a building that the County owned. I met with the manager and told him what the guy wanted to offer he said "We can't just sell it we have to have a bidding process" they eventually did put it out for bid, my guy got outbid by someone who bid higher.



No I understand the RFP was in the middle of the process, that's why I am saying its rigged. It should be the start of the process. Developers/investors don't usually just drive around and see land and go "hey I want to buy that." There is a chance that if the city made it known they wanted to put that land up for sale/development that other parties may have expressed interest.

San Diego recently put up an open offer to develop its Midway District which included renovation of an existing arena (AHL Gulls are a tenant) and got three offers, none of which were related to the Anaheim Ducks.

So your insistence that this was “rigged” is a bit pointless in that it was still open to anyone to do this project.

 

[mouser]

No I understand the RFP was in the middle of the process, that's why I am saying its rigged. It should be the start of the process. Developers/investors don't usually just drive around and see land and go "hey I want to buy that." There is a chance that if the city made it known they wanted to put that land up for sale/development that other parties may have expressed interest.

Tempe sold off land to the immediate east and west of the TED location in the past decade. They've tried to move the TED property for years, including a option on part of the land in 2013 to Verde (Carvana).

It's not realistic to believe the city hasn't made it long known the land was available.

 

[LPHabsFan]

If it bothers certain people that much, then it says a lot more about them than it does about the teams remaining. My recommendation is always "go to therapy".

It wouldn't be much different then if the Oilers make it through. Both sides are equally bad. Look at how many times I hear how it's bad for TV when Canadian teams are in end final.

I know this is off topic but there is no scenario left right now where the ratings in the US will be anything other than the worst they have ever been. You think it's going to be the Canadians that need therapy? This is the dream scenario for the NHL right? You have non traditional southern teams from some of the biggest states (especially if it's Florida/Dallas) in the biggest spotlight and yet, well, I already said my prediction above. All this will do is provide even more proof that the plans that the NHL have with their southern expansion strategy has been at best, neutral when you look at everything at worst a disaster when you dive deep into the numbers.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Less than 5 days now. Let's see what happens