CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[JimAnchower]

It's answered here....

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/97804/638016046283300000

Referendums require valid signatures from 10% of the number of registered votes during the last general election.

In this case it would be 2134 valid signatures from Tempe residents.

A petition for referendum would have to be filed within 30 days of city passage.

Tempe's charter gives a brief outline here.. (Article VIII)

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Thanks for that information! So they'd need to get about 70 valid signatures a day during the holiday season? That would require a pretty well-funded and organized effort.

 

[TheLegend]

As expected...

Thursday's Special Meeting has one item.

Adopt a resolution calling and ordering a Special Election on May 16, 2023 for Council legislative items that are likely to be referred to the ballot. (Resolution No. R2022.169)

https://tempe.hylandcloud.com/AgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/City_Council_Special_Meeting_1474_Agenda_11_10_2022_6_00_00_PM.pdf?meetingId=1474&documentType=Agenda&itemId=undefined&publishId=undefined&isSection=false

Note that this is open for any possible item the council may approve. It isn't limited to just the Coyotes proposal.

$250 well spent IMO.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Uh-oh, some of you on here - and you know who you are - better hurry up and find some Tempe residents to go stir up....time's runnin' out!

 

[oldunclehue]

As expected...

Thursday's Special Meeting has one item.

https://tempe.hylandcloud.com/AgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/City_Council_Special_Meeting_1474_Agenda_11_10_2022_6_00_00_PM.pdf?meetingId=1474&documentType=Agenda&itemId=undefined&publishId=undefined&isSection=false

Note that this is open for any possible item the council may approve. It isn't limited to just the Coyotes proposal.

$250 well spent IMO.

So far much more impressed with Tempe council than the Glendale folks. They must have a better legal team making sure things are abiding by timelines and getting done.

So in your best guess whats a timeline for the project?

May 2023, referendum passes, when does site clean up start and how long does it take?

When are shovels in the ground at the earliest?

I'm thinking with the size of this project and requirements timeline wise, shovels in the ground by July 2024 is not unreasonable?

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Hasn't it been established that that New Jersey had to compensate NYI, NYR, and PHI in exchange for allowing the relocation and territory encroachment to take place? Anaheim had to pay half of their $50M expansion fee straight to Los Angeles in exchange for it. Brooklyn isn't in the league anymore. If you're referencing NYI, they had to pay NYR who required it because it was back when NYR wanted to own the market all to themselves and that's what it took to share, in addition to the "we could go to WHA" stuff but that's besides the point.

And Sunrise isn't in *anyone's* territory, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

So yeah, at one point they did have the veto. The territory encroachment fee, and however steep it is, is the price the territory-owning team says they are willing to give it up for.

So half of 750 million to the Leafs for their territory? Seems low but okay.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So half of 750 million to the Leafs for their territory? Seems low but okay.

That's not how expansion fees work now since the entirely of the fee is split evenly amongst teams and the encroachment fee is paid separately, and the fact that you don't know really doesn't surprise me considering you think the NHL's expansion to Sunrise would have required someone to pay an encroachment fee....

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

That's not how expansion fees work now since the entirely of the fee is split evenly amongst teams and the encroachment fee is paid separately, and the fact that you don't know really doesn't surprise me considering you think the NHL's expansion to Sunrise would have required someone to pay an encroachment fee....

So you're saying what you previously stated has no bearing on this situation? Got it.

Is NHL territory not 100 miles as the crow flies? If so then Sunrise's crosses Tampa's.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So you're saying what you previously stated has no bearing on this situation? Got it.

Is NHL territory not 100 miles as the crow flies? If so then Sunrise's crosses Tampa's. Or instead of being pedantic ill just point out how you conveniently left out Anaheim in your post.

Not at all it still entirely has bearing but your statement that half of the expansion fee would go towards Toronto for an encroachment fee, should Toronto actually permit an encroachment to occur, would go towards Toronto.

You were presumably taking the example I listed from Los Angeles getting half of Anaheim's expansion fee only to themselves.

Hence why I said "that isn't how it works" and the fact I have to explain this to you piecemeal is almost as sad as explaining to you how Sunrise, FL to Tampa, FL is well over 100 miles as the crow flies and is actually almost 200 miles.

And is actually certainly less sad than having to explain to you that I didn't leave Anaheim out of the post because Anaheim was clearly mentioned with Los Angeles getting half of the expansion fee as territory encroachment but you probably didn't understand it just like everything else I have had to spoon feed you so far on a Coyotes arena build thread...

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Not at all it still entirely has bearing but your statement that half of the expansion fee would go towards Toronto for an encroachment fee, should Toronto actually permit an encroachment to occur, would go towards Toronto.

You were presumably taking the example I listed from Los Angeles getting half of Anaheim's expansion fee only to themselves.

Hence why I said "that isn't how it works" and the fact I have to explain this to you piecemeal is almost as sad as explaining to you how Sunrise, FL to Tampa, FL is well over 100 miles as the crow flies and is actually almost 200 miles.

And is actually certainly less sad than having to explain to you that I didn't leave Anaheim out of the post because Anaheim was clearly mentioned with Los Angeles getting half of the expansion fee as territory encroachment but you probably didn't understand it just like everything else I have had to spoon feed you so far on a Coyotes arena build thread...

No shit eh? You got that math added up correctly but your point didn't make sense so it's my fault. Got it.

Oh I got it, you just made a counter-intuitive point.

It's not being "spoon fed" to ask you to speak clearly and concisely, but I'm sure a smart fellar like yourself already knew that

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Hence why I said "that isn't how it works" and the fact I have to explain this to you piecemeal is almost as sad as explaining to you how Sunrise, FL to Tampa, FL is well over 100 miles as the crow flies and is actually almost 200 miles

You mean their territory would overlap as almost 200 miles isn't 200 miles?
Like <200 miles/2 isn't >1? Shit son, you's good at math.

 

[mouser]

So you're saying what you previously stated has no bearing on this situation? Got it.

Is NHL territory not 100 miles as the crow flies? If so then Sunrise's crosses Tampa's.

NHL home territory is 50 miles.

 

[TheLegend]

NHL home territory is 50 miles.

That’s radius correct? I think people regularly get confused with that and what would be 100 miles across.

 

[mouser]

That’s radius correct? I think people regularly get confused with that and what would be 100 miles across.

It's 50 miles "radius". So two markets would overlap if they are less than 100 miles apart.

Note: Technically it's not really a circle, it's 50 miles from the home city's corporate limits.

 

[aqib]

The CTC can be sold off in separate transaction. Or the new owner has to purchase it now and then sell it after they build the new arena. The building would either be repurposed for something else or torn down if it doesn’t fit into the redevelopment plans of the area.

I doubt Ottawa can support 2 arenas so the new owner would make sure it gets decommissioned. It wouldn't make sense to sell it separately. Who would buy the arena if the Sens are going to be out of there. As far as repurposing goes, Toronto and Montreal did that with their old arenas but those were in the heart of downtown the repurposing made sense. Looking at Google maps (I haven't been to the Sens arena) there isn't a whole lot in the immediate around the arena so you're looking at something along the lines of the Edmonton situation where it would be closed and eventually knocked down when there is a use for the land.

 

[aqib]

Hasn't it been established that teams don't have a veto? Or are Brooklyn, Jersey, Sunrise, and Anaheim not in the league any more?

The Islanders were created to keep the WHA out of NY. By having the NHL put in a team on Long Island it allowed the Rangers to keep NYC-proper to themselves. Jersey had to pay the Rangers, Islanders, and Flyers in order to get into the market. With the Ducks half the expansion fee went to the Kings, the existence partly orchestrated by McNall to keep is fraudulent empire afloat.

 

[aqib]

1. Players don't share in franchise value, nor do they share in expansion fees.

2. Because a new franchise mean everyone split of revenues goes from 1/32 to 1/33, the other owners won't allow a new franchise for nothing. There'll be a near-billion dollar expansion fee. So it won't be creating a billion out of nothing.

3. while a GTA-2 team would be successful, it would still be a clear second banana to the Leafs. So I can't see either Bell or Rogers agreeing to give up their share of the Leafs in exchange for GTA-2. Plus you have to divide up the Raptors (extremely valuable), Toronto FC (moderately valuable) and the Argos (likely negative value).

A Bell/Rogers divorce is something only people on this board speculate. The only circumstances I could see there being an incentive for that to happen is if:

1) The NBA decides to put a team in Montreal and Bell wanted to take over that
2) Both Bell and Rogers try to capitalize on the exploding value of sports franchises and both sell the teams while creating a jointly owned media company that would hold the broadcast rights (kind of like Cablevision splitting off MSG and then later splitting the teams and the venue business)
3) one of the entities falls into financial distress

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You mean their territory would overlap as almost 200 miles isn't 200 miles?
Like <200 miles/2 isn't >1? Shit son, you's good at math.

That's not how territory encroachment works and it pains me to have to correct you again on this.

Territory encroachment works as mouser stated it does. You can't open up shop within 50 miles of the corporate limits. It isn't two circles between home bases. It is setting up shop within certain limits.

And I snuck in there it is actually 50 miles you can't set up within the corporate limits of the city, as Mouser was nice enough to beat me to. Once again, disappointed but not surprised there is something else you're going on and you know pretty much nothing about this process.

 

[voyageur]

I doubt Ottawa can support 2 arenas so the new owner would make sure it gets decommissioned. It wouldn't make sense to sell it separately. Who would buy the arena if the Sens are going to be out of there. As far as repurposing goes, Toronto and Montreal did that with their old arenas but those were in the heart of downtown the repurposing made sense. Looking at Google maps (I haven't been to the Sens arena) there isn't a whole lot in the immediate around the arena so you're looking at something along the lines of the Edmonton situation where it would be closed and eventually knocked down when there is a use for the land.

Going to need a place to play while the arena gets built. Since there is not even a shovel in the ground. Selling the property after the fact shouldn't be hard, Kanata is growing, and there are some high tech players invested in the area. What it gets repurposed into is anyone's guess, but it's not a real estate nightmare.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

*amusedly watching while people who know little about NHL territories forlornly hope the (distinctly OT!) subject becomes relevant*

 

[Stumbledore]

Thanks for that information! So they'd need to get about 70 valid signatures a day during the holiday season? That would require a pretty well-funded and organized effort.

Well funded and organized?

Or just a table with some misinformation set up in a few malls?

 

[JimAnchower]

Well funded and organized?

Or just a table with some misinformation set up in a few malls?

Who's going to sit at this table all day and collect signatures? How are they going to be compensated? How are you going to train them when people ask questions? Or are you leaving the table without anyone there and then teens come by and throw out all your pamphlets or write a bunch of fake names on your list?

 

[TheLegend]

Who's going to sit at this table all day and collect signatures? How are they going to be compensated? How are you going to train them when people ask questions? Or are you leaving the table without anyone there and then teens come by and throw out all your pamphlets or write a bunch of fake names on your list?

Initiatives in AZ are very tricky to administer. Right down to the language on the petitions themselves. Many get kicked out just on that alone.

There are paid signature gathering companies but not all of them have been known to be reliable. Because they often get paid per signature and that lead to to gatherers padding the numbers.

 

[oknazevad]

So, to try to break this down in as simple of terms as possible, Thursday's meeting is to vote on a resolution asking the county government to reserve a spot on the ballot for a potential special election in May 2023 in case there's a referendum petition challenging city council approval of the arena project (which is expected to be voted on in the meeting scheduled for November 29th). Doing such would allow the council to get that referendum (if there is a successful petition drive) out of the way sooner than later so as to minimize any delays to getting construction of the project underway. Sounds like they're just being mindful of dotting all their i's.

 

[TheLegend]

So, to try to break this down in as simple of terms as possible, Thursday's meeting is to vote on a resolution asking the county government to reserve a spot on the ballot for a potential special election in May 2023 in case there's a referendum petition challenging city council approval of the arena project (which is expected to be voted on in the meeting scheduled for November 29th). Doing such would allow the council to get that referendum (if there is a successful petition drive) out of the way sooner than later so as to minimize any delays to getting construction of the project underway. Sounds like they're just being mindful of dotting all their i's.

Pretty much it. It potentially saves 6 months.

IF the council votes to approve on the 29th.

 

[mouser]

So, to try to break this down in as simple of terms as possible, Thursday's meeting is to vote on a resolution asking the county government to reserve a spot on the ballot for a potential special election in May 2023 in case there's a referendum petition challenging city council approval of the arena project (which is expected to be voted on in the meeting scheduled for November 29th). Doing such would allow the council to get that referendum (if there is a successful petition drive) out of the way sooner than later so as to minimize any delays to getting construction of the project underway. Sounds like they're just being mindful of dotting all their i's.

Yes, though there is still a possibility the Tempe city council could call for a referendum while approving the arena project on Nov 29th. The council hasn't publicly given an indication they intend to do that. Some media outlets have reported there will be a referendum attached, but even if those reporters had city council sources I can easily see possible miss translations given the sequence of events with this Nov 10th meeting reserving a referendum slot in May. I haven't looked through the minutia of AZ/Tempe referendum law timings, it may be possible Tempe city council could approve the arena project on Nov 29th and file for a referendum on some later date before the May 2023 special election if they thought it was advantageous to do so.

I don't think we'll know for sure until Nov 29th.