CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[mouser]

Well, you are wrong about me having a problem with how this is playing out. The actual fact is that it is going better than I expected. It likely wouldn’t occur to a fanboy but there is another reason that council might be considering the referendum. Maybe the truth is that after all of the coaxing from Meruelo, the council is still not completely on board. This would be the perfect way to end the plan. And as I’ve said before, 2 weeks ago, this was announced as a done deal by pro-Coyote sources.. now, maybe nothing further until May or so. The litigation angle is a crock, because pretty much everyone expects some type of challenge. Something happened since the big proclamation. Maybe some persuasion cheques bounced or something? That would not be a first for Meruelo

The perfect way for the Tempe city council to “end the plan” would be to simply vote No on the project without any need for a public referendum.

If there is a public referendum I expect it will be attached to a Tempe city council approval for the arena—subject to rejection by a public referendum—with the city council recommending the Tempe residents vote to approve the arena project.

 

[TheLegend]

Atlanta residents not showing up to games helped. Also, just pointing out that Quebes lost a team twice.

Leave it to a Coyotes fan not to know that.

Atlanta owners not wanting any hockey team in their arena period sort of makes all those other things moot.

Montreal had two teams and lost one.

The Penguins also have more bankruptcies than the Coyotes.

So what’s your actual point other than playing NHL Jeopardy???

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

You're crying in a vacuum. Suck it up, butter cup. It's okay, the big bad Canadians won't come for your team tonight, and if you showed up to games at NHL prices at NHL arenas then maybe never.

 

[Fairview]

The perfect way for the Tempe city council to “end the plan” would be to simply vote No on the project without any need for a public referendum.

If there is a public referendum I expect it will be attached to a Tempe city council approval for the arena—subject to rejection by a public referendum—with the city council recommending the Tempe residents vote to approve the arena project.

The perfect way to pass the plan would be for council just to approve it. Just like any other council would, without kicking the final decision 6 months down the road. It will be a very interesting referendum if it comes to pass. The project is very specific in who it supports and the general population is usually not very accepting of handouts to billionaires. Not to mention the current 3 large arenas in the market.

 

[TheLegend]

You're crying in a vacuum. Suck it up, butter cup. It's okay, the big bad Canadians won't come for your team tonight, and if you showed up to games at NHL prices at NHL arenas then maybe never.

Comes in with a drive by post and then accuses the guy he’s trolling of crying.

Projection 101.



*click*

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Comes in with a drive by post and then accuses the guy he’s trolling of crying.

Projection 101.



*click*

Good one. I'm sorry, I forgot this was supposed to be a safe place for coyotes fans, your ad hominem attacks will be forgiven.

 

[oldunclehue]

The perfect way to pass the plan would be for council just to approve it. Just like any other council would, without kicking the final decision 6 months down the road. It will be a very interesting referendum if it comes to pass. The project is very specific in who it supports and the general population is usually not very accepting of handouts to billionaires. Not to mention the current 3 large arenas in the market.

Yup, I think the council has a lot of pressure on them from the NHL, ownership and other investors in the entire project, but its a LOT of money to put up on the backs of tax payers for an arena and project. Will it create jobs and tax revenue over the years, I'm sure it all will at some point. But the thing is with the current economy, people just scraping by, selling the idea of giving money to billionaires to build an arena many people won't attend.....may be a hard sell.

Council may find their out this way and be able to tell everyone they were for it but their taxpayers weren't.

If Tempe doesn't work out, is it finally the final straw to move the team or is there more options?

 

[awfulwaffle]

Yup, I think the council has a lot of pressure on them from the NHL, ownership and other investors in the entire project, but its a LOT of money to put up on the backs of tax payers for an arena and project. Will it create jobs and tax revenue over the years, I'm sure it all will at some point. But the thing is with the current economy, people just scraping by, selling the idea of giving money to billionaires to build an arena many people won't attend.....may be a hard sell.

Council may find their out this way and be able to tell everyone they were for it but their taxpayers weren't.

If Tempe doesn't work out, is it finally the final straw to move the team or is there more options?

How much money exactly? I'm curious what your thoughts are on the deal and why you think it's a lot of money on the backs of tax payers.

If you are referencing the abatement, that's not on the tax payers back. That has nothing to do with the tax payers. An abatement is essentially an agreement that yes, you owe $x amount of money, but you don't have to pay it. The site as it stands now generates $0 in tax revenue. So the tax payers aren't going to be on the hook for anything in that regards.

The only thing they are on the hook for is the cleanup of the dump site, and last we heard from the team when they presented in front of the council was they were willing to put even more $$ in to help clean up the site. And who knows what might have changed with that since then, we will find out later this month.

The issue if it goes to the voters, is how informed will they be on the project to make a decision one way or the other. They are going to see "$650M in lost revenue due to TAX abatement", or whatever number it is, and automatically assume it is their tax dollars at work and say "We can use our tax dollars better", when in essence the city never had that $$ to begin with.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

AZ fans... "This is a great hockey market!!!!!!!"
"If the team were in Tempe, they would sell out every night."

Meaning the hockey "fans" in az won't drive 30 mins while the fans in Boston, Detroit, Toronto Montreal drive as far or in lotsa cases a whole lot farther it in -30C on ice and through blowing snow....ok .

Empty seats in a 5000 seat arena opening night?
Visitor fan cheers louder than the 'yotes fans on opening night?? and every night since... already ticket prices are collapsing and attendance falling?

lol ok

this whole thing is a f***ing Joke right?

25 years of hockey in AZ...add it all up? over 3 Billion lost, worst avg attendance, lowest avg revenue, biggest cash losses, lowest TV ratings, weakest corporate support, lowest ticket sales, lowest ticket prices lowest merch sales,,....

How do you get the lowest TV ratings in the USA's 4th biggest broadcast market 25 years in a row?? Becauses it is not has not and will never be a hockey market.

it makes the league look pathetic.

MOVE THE TEAM. Houston KC QC Portland anywhere

kill this dog.

It makes the league look pathetic?

The NHL doesn't work like how you claim it should and I think you know better than claiming it should work that way. You can't, won't, and shouldn't relocate a team because they're supposedly making everyone else look bad. Tampa Bay played in a baseball stadium for two full seasons. As long as it is a temporary measure, you care more than the 31 other ownership groups. If it becomes permanent, then by all means that changes things. But it isn't. So since the Coyotes have an ownership who is dedicated to the Phoenix metro area and wants to make it work. They have the money and business acumen to make it work. The seats are sold, who cares if there is a butt in it? Until a day comes where I can turn on a Leafs game or Red Wings game in the regular season and I *can't* see an open sea of empty seats in the lower bowl. And if you know hockey as well as you claim you do, you know the 32 league owners generally don't give a flying crud about what the other teams do.

I mean, look at all the things they have ignored and things you can ask yourself about the Coyotes temporary home. Is it:

Worse than the ads on the virtual ads?
Worse than the mostly unwatchable NHL All-Star event?
Worse than Bill Wirtz who refused to televise games locally and were named the worst franchise in sports more than once?
Worse than 29 NHL ownership groups ignoring the Atlanta Thrashers owners stating for *years* they don't want the Thrashers
Worse than the Canadiens drafting a convicted sexual offender in the first round?
Worse than Eugene Melnyk and the countless counts of fraud he was charged with?
Worse than Jeremy Jacobs who caused can't be individually blamed but certainly was the leading cause of two work stoppages, and the renovations done to maximize fan suffering and minimize foot room at TD Garden?
Worse than John Spano?
Worse than the confirmed Yakuza connection to Tampa Bay's ownership in the 90s?

Take off the tin foil hat, grab a mullet to replace it with, and chill out...

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

I'll be the drive-by poster and remind that Calgary (Corral), Ottawa (TD Place/Civic Centre) Tampa Bay (Expo Hall) and San Jose (Cow Palace) all started out in smaller temporary facilities. No, they weren't as small as Mullett but there is precedent.

Does this excuse the litany of other issues the Coyotes have faced? Nooooope.

If they get the vote, then so be it and good luck to 'em. If not, then so be it and either they limp along until another option arises in the Phoenix metro or they simply relocate. Options are abound...

 

[LPHabsFan]

Questions for those defending the crappyness of other teams arena situations and using it try and negate what's happening in Arizona. Those other places that you like to mention, how long did they stay in those places? Were their permanent homes already under construction? If not, were they already announced and begun construction relatively soon after? Or were they still multiple (4 or 5 with this new timeline if the referendum rumor holds true) years away in part because their arena hasn't even gotten the green light to be built yet and still faces multiple major hurdles even beyond council approval?

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Questions for those defending the crappyness of other teams arena situations and using it try and negate what's happening in Arizona. Those other places that you like to mention, how long did they stay in those places? Were their permanent homes already under construction? If not, were they already announced and begun construction relatively soon after? Or were they still multiple (4 or 5 with this new timeline if the referendum rumor holds true) years away in part because their arena hasn't even gotten the green light to be built yet and still faces multiple major hurdles even beyond council approval?

Ottawa shouldn't have gotten a team over Hamilton, that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Ottawa shouldn't have gotten a team over Hamilton, that's all I have to say about that.

Hasn't it been well-established that Hamilton would have been vetoed by Toronto?

 

[TheLegend]

Questions for those defending the crappyness of other teams arena situations and using it try and negate what's happening in Arizona. Those other places that you like to mention, how long did they stay in those places? Were their permanent homes already under construction? If not, were they already announced and begun construction relatively soon after? Or were they still multiple (4 or 5 with this new timeline if the referendum rumor holds true) years away in part because their arena hasn't even gotten the green light to be built yet and still faces multiple major hurdles even beyond council approval?

I thought we established a long time ago that the situation in Arizona is unlike anything else that’s ever been (outside of a Lemony Snicket novel)… and hopefully will never end up being duplicated?

Now if you want to talk about what’s ahead for TED….

There are (according to interviews I’ve watched) three public more public meetings (and/or forums) scheduled.

Two are on the 22nd and 29th of November. Those were set by Tempe in relation to the required zoning change for the site and the required 60 day window.

A third meeting was mentioned by Gutierrez to take place on the 15th, but Tempe does not have a meeting scheduled on that date. There is, however a “Special Meeting” scheduled for the 10th. No agenda posted yet though but I’m watching for it.

The referendum is still officially up in the air. Craig Morgan’s article leans towards it happening and I’ve heard via other means it’s going to happen. Just don’t know when. I would presume there are required periods of notification time involved.

As to why the council is doing this has been a attracted a various number of opinions. I speculated it was to shore up the city’s position against challenges from group(s) outside of Tempe (*cough* Sky Harbor *cough*) and the info I’m getting is it’s exactly the reason. So this is NOT a case of the city council shirking it’s responsibility. They have conducted two recent polls of city residents and they were both positive. The local business community is also behind it.

Sure… it’s a risk to put it up to a referendum. But the city is confident it will pass.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Hasn't it been well-established that Hamilton would have been vetoed by Toronto?

Hasn't it been established that teams don't have a veto? Or are Brooklyn, Jersey, Sunrise, and Anaheim not in the league any more?

 

[mouser]

Hasn't it been well-established that Hamilton would have been vetoed by Toronto?

Hasn't it been established that teams don't have a veto? Or are Brooklyn, Jersey, Sunrise, and Anaheim not in the league any more?

The NHL‘s position in 2009 was the league has “removed“ the home territory team veto clause from their constitution, as it would likely violate anti trust laws. The Leafs at the time disagreed with that statement by the NHL, maintaining Toronto still held veto rights over a team in Hamilton or anywhere else in the Toronto area.

I haven’t seen any public statement that the NHL and Toronto have resolved that disagreement.

Whether they’ve come to an agreement or not I’m confident a single team veto clause wouldn’t survive a antitrust lawsuit. So I’d safely say Toronto can’t unilaterally veto a new team entering their market. But Toronto and most teams carry a lot of weight in the BoG and could likely convince enough other owners to not approve a new team in their market, avoiding the antitrust problem.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Ottawa shouldn't have gotten a team over Hamilton, that's all I have to say about that.

Didn’t they refuse to pay the expansion fee asked by the NHL? How is that anybody’s fault but Hamilton’s?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Ottawa shouldn't have gotten a team over Hamilton, that's all I have to say about that.

Thanks for not responding to the content of my post.

I thought we established a long time ago that the situation in Arizona is unlike anything else that’s ever been (outside of a Lemony Snicket novel)… and hopefully will never end up being duplicated?

Now if you want to talk about what’s ahead for TED….

There are (according to interviews I’ve watched) three public more public meetings (and/or forums) scheduled.

Two are on the 22nd and 29th of November. Those were set by Tempe in relation to the required zoning change for the site and the required 60 day window.

A third meeting was mentioned by Gutierrez to take place on the 15th, but Tempe does not have a meeting scheduled on that date. There is, however a “Special Meeting” scheduled for the 10th. No agenda posted yet though but I’m watching for it.

The referendum is still officially up in the air. Craig Morgan’s article leans towards it happening and I’ve heard via other means it’s going to happen. Just don’t know when. I would presume there are required periods of notification time involved.

As to why the council is doing this has been a attracted a various number of opinions. I speculated it was to shore up the city’s position against challenges from group(s) outside of Tempe (*cough* Sky Harbor *cough*) and the info I’m getting is it’s exactly the reason. So this is NOT a case of the city council shirking it’s responsibility. They have conducted two recent polls of city residents and they were both positive. The local business community is also behind it.

Sure… it’s a risk to put it up to a referendum. But the city is confident it will pass.

I get that, you get that, many others here get that, yet people are trying to use other situations as a way to mitigate the sheer disaster that is the current situation.

As for the rest of it, similarly, I am aware of all of that (minus the other means of hearing it). That's why I said now that it's probably 4 to 5 years away as based on what someone said earlier in the thread the next time it could be voted on in is in May. Then who knows how long after that before they schedule the appropriate council meetings to get it approved and that doesn't take into consideration how long before the new council gets seated and whatnot.

I am also firmly in the camp of seriously questioning the financing of this project given its magnitude, inflation, and the involving of that shady financing group that's only been mentioned in passing.

 

[Ernie]

How much money exactly? I'm curious what your thoughts are on the deal and why you think it's a lot of money on the backs of tax payers.

If you are referencing the abatement, that's not on the tax payers back. That has nothing to do with the tax payers. An abatement is essentially an agreement that yes, you owe $x amount of money, but you don't have to pay it. The site as it stands now generates $0 in tax revenue. So the tax payers aren't going to be on the hook for anything in that regards.

The only thing they are on the hook for is the cleanup of the dump site, and last we heard from the team when they presented in front of the council was they were willing to put even more $$ in to help clean up the site. And who knows what might have changed with that since then, we will find out later this month.

The issue if it goes to the voters, is how informed will they be on the project to make a decision one way or the other. They are going to see "$650M in lost revenue due to TAX abatement", or whatever number it is, and automatically assume it is their tax dollars at work and say "We can use our tax dollars better", when in essence the city never had that $$ to begin with.

This is absolute hogwash.

Why do we pay taxes?

Because they fund things like fire, police, sanitation, etc etc etc.

Tempe taxpayers will be on the hook for all these services for this new development. It is handout pure and simple.

Proponents of this project are going to lose this referendum if that's the best argument they can make.

Because all the opponents have to do is add up how much each taxpayer will have to pay to subsidize it every year and ask voters whether that's something they want to pay.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Didn’t they refuse to pay the expansion fee asked by the NHL? How is that anybody’s fault but Hamilton’s?

*without knowing how much they'd have to pay the Leafs. Due dilligence is not Hamilton's fault

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Thanks for not responding to the content of my post.

I responded about Ottawa. Do you need me to go through the Yakuza and the Lightning or other teams not having the money to make that point?

 

[Ernie]

Didn’t they refuse to pay the expansion fee asked by the NHL? How is that anybody’s fault but Hamilton’s?

Toronto and Buffalo are blocking any expansion into the GTA. The NHL claims that they have the right to place franchises where they want. Otherwise they run into antitrust problems I believe. However, in practice local franchise absolutely have a veto.

Best hope for another franchise in the GTA is for Bell and Rogers to decide to "spin off" a franchise where one of them takes ownership. Creating a more than billion dollar entity out of nothing should be a no-brainer for everyone involved. I'm surprised the players haven't made a thing about it in collective bargaining.

 

[awfulwaffle]

This is absolute hogwash.

Why do we pay taxes?

Because they fund things like fire, police, sanitation, etc etc etc.

Tempe taxpayers will be on the hook for all these services for this new development. It is handout pure and simple.

Proponents of this project are going to lose this referendum if that's the best argument they can make.

Because all the opponents have to do is add up how much each taxpayer will have to pay to subsidize it every year and ask voters whether that's something they want to pay.

No matter what goes there, Tempe would need to pay for those services......

Are you suggesting that Tempe do nothing with the land? Keep in mind Fire already has to deal with the area because the trash sets on fire every now and then.

 

[Stumbledore]

Toronto and Buffalo are blocking any expansion into the GTA. The NHL claims that they have the right to place franchises where they want. Otherwise they run into antitrust problems I believe. However, in practice local franchise absolutely have a veto.

I think this "practice" you speak of exists only within your own head.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Toronto and Buffalo are blocking any expansion into the GTA. The NHL claims that they have the right to place franchises where they want. Otherwise they run into antitrust problems I believe. However, in practice local franchise absolutely have a veto.

Best hope for another franchise in the GTA is for Bell and Rogers to decide to "spin off" a franchise where one of them takes ownership. Creating a more than billion dollar entity out of nothing should be a no-brainer for everyone involved. I'm surprised the players haven't made a thing about it in collective bargaining.

1. Players don't share in franchise value, nor do they share in expansion fees.

2. Because a new franchise mean everyone split of revenues goes from 1/32 to 1/33, the other owners won't allow a new franchise for nothing. There'll be a near-billion dollar expansion fee. So it won't be creating a billion out of nothing.

3. while a GTA-2 team would be successful, it would still be a clear second banana to the Leafs. So I can't see either Bell or Rogers agreeing to give up their share of the Leafs in exchange for GTA-2. Plus you have to divide up the Raptors (extremely valuable), Toronto FC (moderately valuable) and the Argos (likely negative value).