CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[TheLegend]

No matter what goes there, Tempe would need to pay for those services......

Are you suggesting that Tempe do nothing with the land? Keep in mind Fire already has to deal with the area because the trash sets on fire every now and then.

And it’s not HIS taxes that could possibly be affected.

Just from watching how Tempe operates they are light years ahead of Glendale in public awareness and response.

 

[GKJ]

 

[TheLegend]

Explains the Nov. 10th Special Meeting I referred to.

Edit: Full statement from Tempe here:

Tempe City Council Special Meeting Nov. 10

mailchi.mp

 

[mouser]

Explains the Nov. 10th Special Meeting I referred to.

Edit: Full statement from Tempe here:

Tempe City Council Special Meeting Nov. 10

mailchi.mp

Very interesting, this appears to confirm my earlier suspicion that Tempe may have a tactical reason for the special election referendum decision to avoid extra delays if the arena project is approved.

If i‘m reading everything correctly:

- Tempe is not calling for a referendum—they are doing a statutory notification to the County 180 days ahead of the next scheduled Special Election in May 2023. That notification is to reserve a slot on that May ballot in the event other entities collect enough signatures for a Special Election ballot challenge after Tempe approves the arena.

- Without this 180 day notification I believe any objection petition that collects enough signatures could be delayed until the November 2023 ballot. Potentially stalling the new development.

 

[TheLegend]

Very interesting, this appears to confirm my earlier suspicion that Tempe may have a tactical reason for the special election referendum decision to avoid extra delays if the arena project is approved.

If i‘m reading everything correctly:

- Tempe is not calling for a referendum—they are doing a statutory notification to the County 180 days ahead of the next scheduled Special Election in May 2023. That notification is to reserve a slot on that May ballot in the event other entities collect enough signatures for a Special Election ballot challenge after Tempe approves the arena.

- Without this 180 day notification I believe any objection petition that collects enough signatures could be delayed until the November 2023 ballot. Potentially stalling the new development.

Yeah sometimes the notification windows sorta dictate these things.

The council meetings on the 22nd and 29th were dictated by an Arizona law requiring a 60 day notification window for zoning changes. That was explained in the notification letter Tempe sent to Sky Harbor officials.

Tempe is being very preemptive here.

 

[Ernie]

No matter what goes there, Tempe would need to pay for those services......

Are you suggesting that Tempe do nothing with the land? Keep in mind Fire already has to deal with the area because the trash sets on fire every now and then.

They are already giving the land away for free in return for cleaning it up.

Very interesting, this appears to confirm my earlier suspicion that Tempe may have a tactical reason for the special election referendum decision to avoid extra delays if the arena project is approved.

If i‘m reading everything correctly:

- Tempe is not calling for a referendum—they are doing a statutory notification to the County 180 days ahead of the next scheduled Special Election in May 2023. That notification is to reserve a slot on that May ballot in the event other entities collect enough signatures for a Special Election ballot challenge after Tempe approves the arena.

- Without this 180 day notification I believe any objection petition that collects enough signatures could be delayed until the November 2023 ballot. Potentially stalling the new development.

Craig Morgan reported that city council was going to send the project to a referendum. Are you saying that his sourcing was incorrect?

 

[Ernie]

1. Players don't share in franchise value, nor do they share in expansion fees.

2. Because a new franchise mean everyone split of revenues goes from 1/32 to 1/33, the other owners won't allow a new franchise for nothing. There'll be a near-billion dollar expansion fee. So it won't be creating a billion out of nothing.

3. while a GTA-2 team would be successful, it would still be a clear second banana to the Leafs. So I can't see either Bell or Rogers agreeing to give up their share of the Leafs in exchange for GTA-2. Plus you have to divide up the Raptors (extremely valuable), Toronto FC (moderately valuable) and the Argos (likely negative value).

1. Players get 50% of all revenues, and GTA 2 would create a lot of revenues. Which is why they've been ok with the NHL pocketing expansion fees, because they are huge beneficiaries of expansion.

2. However the billion is divided, it should be a huge incentive for all involved.

3. There is a cash value for all these considerations and the parties involved don't lack capital.

 

[mouser]

Craig Morgan reported that city council was going to send the project to a referendum. Are you saying that his sourcing was incorrect?

Read the Tempe city council announcement for yourself.

My take away is Tempe city council is planing a vote to give notice to Maricopa County to hold a spot on the May 2023 ballot for a potential referendum. But the announcement doesn’t state the city will be initiating a referendum. The announcement covers the potential other entities will initiate a referendum.

Tempe could initiate a referendum when they vote on the arena proposal later this month.

In short we’ll find out at the end of the month exactly how this plays out.


p.s. To directly answer your question: No at this time. There are also nuances in this situation easily subject to misunderstanding.

 

[TheLegend]

Craig Morgan reported that city council was going to send the project to a referendum. Are you saying that his sourcing was incorrect?

Depends on your POV…

The actual text….

Coyotes president and CEO Xavier A. Gutierrez told reporters on Thursday that the Tempe City Council will vote on the team’s proposed arena and entertainment district on Nov. 29, but sources told PHNX that the council is also likely to refer the proposal to referendum in November, leaving the vote in the hands of Tempe citizens.

While the vote on Nov. 29 will provide clarity on council’s opinion of the Coyotes’ proposal — on the entitlements and on the general plan amendment — a referendum would be the ultimate vote in determining whether the project begins. That vote would be held in 2023 at a date yet to be determined.

The presumption among city leaders (and Gutierrez apparently) is some group will move to oppose it. What Tempe is doing is reserving a slot for it in May.

If nobody acts following the November 29th vote (and they approve it) then nothing happens other than shovels are in the ground.

Edit: Groups who might petition this would have to get enough valid signatures of Tempe residents to qualify.

 

[Ernie]

Read the Tempe city council announcement for yourself.

My take away is Tempe city council is planing a vote to give notice to Maricopa County to hold a spot on the May 2023 ballot for a potential referendum. But the announcement doesn’t state the city will be initiating a referendum. The announcement covers the potential other entities will initiate a referendum.

Tempe could initiate a referendum when they vote on the arena proposal later this month.

In short we’ll find out at the end of the month exactly how this plays out.


p.s. To directly answer your question: No at this time. There are also nuances in this situation easily subject to misunderstanding.

Yes, that's your takeaway, but it isn't what Craig Morgan reported. If your speculation is correct, why wouldn't he have reported it? He clearly has sources within the Coyotes organization and likely within city council as well.

 

[mouser]

Yes, that's your takeaway, but it isn't what Craig Morgan reported. If your speculation is correct, why wouldn't he have reported it? He clearly has sources within the Coyotes organization and likely within city council as well.

Ask me in a month.

You seem overly focused on whether Morgan accurately reported future events which haven’t even happened yet, may not happen, or may have been altered over time.

 

[Ernie]

Ask me in a month.

You seem overly focused on whether Morgan accurately reported future events which haven’t even happened yet, may not happen, or may have been altered over time.

Like, what does this even mean? English?

 

[mouser]

Like, what does this even mean? English?

- The Nov 10th city council meeting is to reserve a spot on the May 2023 ballot for a potential referendum—either initiated by the city or public. The meeting notice does not announce the city will initiate a referendum if the arena project is approved. There is a timing reason for the city to do this.

- The Nov 22nd meeting is open comments on the arena project.

- The Nov 29th meeting is a city council vote whether or not to approve the arena project. There is no statement from the city council on whether such an approval will come with an attached referendum on the May 2023 special election ballot.

 

[TheLegend]

Like, what does this even mean? English?

Read the segment of his article I posted above. He was reporting what Gutierrez and contacts in Tempe told him.

 

[Ernie]

- The Nov 10th city council meeting is to reserve a spot on the May 2023 ballot for a potential referendum—either initiated by the city or public. The meeting notice does not announce the city will initiate a referendum if the arena project is approved. There is a timing reason for the city to do this.

- The Nov 22nd meeting is open comments on the arena project.

- The Nov 29th meeting is a city council vote whether or not to approve the arena project. There is no statement from the city council on whether such an approval will come with an attached referendum on the May 2023 special election ballot.

So we have your rose tinted speculation vs what was reported by Craig Morgan. If what you are saying is true, why would he have reported the opposite?

 

[mouser]

So we have your rose tinted speculation vs what was reported by Craig Morgan. If what you are saying is true, why would he have reported the opposite?

My post you chose to reply to and this whole chain was discussing the Tempe city council announcement, not Morgan‘s reporting of what the city council might do.

You seem to have a unhealthy fixation over Morgan. Projecting other posters like myself are somehow responsible for defending Morgan even though I never posted anything endorsing or referencing Morgan.

 

[Ernie]

My post you chose to reply to and this whole chain was discussing the Tempe city council announcement, not Morgan‘s reporting of what the city council might do.

You seem to have a unhealthy fixation over Morgan. Projecting other posters like myself are somehow responsible for defending Morgan even though I never posted anything endorsing or referencing Morgan.

haha wow deflection much?

I merely asked whether you thought that Morgan's sources were wrong. Never asked you to defend him or whatever.

 

[TheLegend]

Nothing like seeing all this sealioning going on…. I might have to bring a bucket of smelt to the next show.

If people can’t figure out that Tempe is doing exactly what a city should do in keeping this process within a manageable timeline then they really need to just sit back and just watch.

 

[mouser]

haha wow deflection much?

I merely asked whether you thought that Morgan's sources were wrong. Never asked you to defend him or whatever.

I think it's pretty clear at this point you aren't interested in any constructive discussion.

 

[JimAnchower]

Depends on your POV…

The actual text….


The presumption among city leaders (and Gutierrez apparently) is some group will move to oppose it. What Tempe is doing is reserving a slot for it in May.

If nobody acts following the November 29th vote (and they approve it) then nothing happens other than shovels are in the ground.

Edit: Groups who might petition this would have to get enough valid signatures of Tempe residents to qualify.

Does anyone know what the requirements are for an outside group to force the measure to the voters? How many valid signatures are needed? How long do they have to collect them?

 

[oldunclehue]

How much money exactly? I'm curious what your thoughts are on the deal and why you think it's a lot of money on the backs of tax payers.

If you are referencing the abatement, that's not on the tax payers back. That has nothing to do with the tax payers. An abatement is essentially an agreement that yes, you owe $x amount of money, but you don't have to pay it. The site as it stands now generates $0 in tax revenue. So the tax payers aren't going to be on the hook for anything in that regards.

The only thing they are on the hook for is the cleanup of the dump site, and last we heard from the team when they presented in front of the council was they were willing to put even more $$ in to help clean up the site. And who knows what might have changed with that since then, we will find out later this month.

The issue if it goes to the voters, is how informed will they be on the project to make a decision one way or the other. They are going to see "$650M in lost revenue due to TAX abatement", or whatever number it is, and automatically assume it is their tax dollars at work and say "We can use our tax dollars better", when in essence the city never had that $$ to begin with.

I think the devil is in the details we don't know. Professional sports teams and their owners, along with investors rarely will leverage themselves with the risks involved in building billion dollar complexes, one, they really don't have the cash on hand to do so, and two they don't put their assets up to support loans etc. Most times those are put up from the counties, municipalities etc. The risk is often put forth on the municipality to ensure the money is there and will be guarenteed say the project flops etc etc.

We don't know all the details, and I don't expect joe blow taxpayer in Tempe to know the details other than that some billionaire and their investors want tax breaks/money/risk to build a complex that ultimitaly is to make them richer.

And in the current economy, where people are losing savings and homes/jobs etc, they may not vote in favour of it.


I'm not saying this will happen, I hope it doesn't. But I don't know details and why they would hold a referendum if the deal in no way would risk taxpayers or the municipality.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Hasn't it been established that teams don't have a veto? Or are Brooklyn, Jersey, Sunrise, and Anaheim not in the league any more?

Hasn't it been established that that New Jersey had to compensate NYI, NYR, and PHI in exchange for allowing the relocation and territory encroachment to take place? Anaheim had to pay half of their $50M expansion fee straight to Los Angeles in exchange for it. Brooklyn isn't in the league anymore. If you're referencing NYI, they had to pay NYR who required it because it was back when NYR wanted to own the market all to themselves and that's what it took to share, in addition to the "we could go to WHA" stuff but that's besides the point.

And Sunrise isn't in *anyone's* territory, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

So yeah, at one point they did have the veto. The territory encroachment fee, and however steep it is, is the price the territory-owning team says they are willing to give it up for.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Hasn't it been established that that New Jersey had to compensate NYI, NYR, and PHI in exchange for allowing the relocation and territory encroachment to take place? Anaheim had to pay half of their $50M expansion fee straight to Los Angeles in exchange for it. Brooklyn isn't in the league anymore. If you're referencing NYI, they had to pay NYR who required it because it was back when NYR wanted to own the market all to themselves and that's what it took to share, in addition to the "we could go to WHA" stuff but that's besides the point.

And Sunrise isn't in *anyone's* territory, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

So yeah, at one point they did have the veto. The territory encroachment fee, and however steep it is, is the price the territory-owning team says they are willing to give it up for.

technically they had to payoff the Everglades Alligators of the GFWHL

 

[awfulwaffle]

haha wow deflection much?

I merely asked whether you thought that Morgan's sources were wrong. Never asked you to defend him or whatever.

Why does it really matter? Here's a quote from his article:

Coyotes' proposed arena, entertainment district likely to go before Tempe voters - PHNX Sports

Coyotes president and CEO Xavier A. Gutierrez told reporters before the team's first game at Mullett Arena that the Tempe City Council would vote on the

www.gophnx.com

but sources told PHNX that the council is also likely to refer the proposal to referendum in November, leaving the vote in the hands of Tempe citizens.

I mean he's technically not wrong, it's up to the voters to garner enough signatures that it will be on the ballot if they vote to reserve the spot.

 

[TheLegend]

Does anyone know what the requirements are for an outside group to force the measure to the voters? How many valid signatures are needed? How long do they have to collect them?

It's answered here....

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/97804/638016046283300000

Referendums require valid signatures from 10% of the number of registered votes during the last general election.

In this case it would be 2134 valid signatures from Tempe residents.

A petition for referendum would have to be filed within 30 days of city passage.

Tempe's charter gives a brief outline here.. (Article VIII)

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